Ledge DJ Cancel (Aerial Interrupt)

edwrios · Sep 29, 2011

I'm always been loyal to the samus' forum and I've been following the advices and videos of the more experienced samuses from the very beginning (HugS, Phanna and others). Lately I've been kind of retired, but I've found motivation in playing competitive melee again. The enough motivation to even write my very first post and thread

lol. So I hope you guys can help me with this.

Back on topic, I'm not sure what it is called exactly (edge hop cancel, edge hop to aerial interrupt or whatever it is called) but I'm aware that this tech is nothing new. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I saw something similar in some tournament videos before. As far as I can see, it has some interesting applications and advantages. However, I don't know why aerial interrupt is not used more often in tournament matches (I mean on the ledge). In my personal opinion, I don't think that consistency is the problem here. I mean, it is not that difficult to perform without missing that much (or not?).

For the reason I mentioned before I bring this up to you, more experienced samuses, hoping that you can give me your thoughts, feedback, analysis, etc. on this issue. What are those situations in a particular matchup that you have found it useful in tournament scene (if there's any).

I've made a short video to show you what exactly I mean with all this. You'll see some basic examples/applications just for the sake of demonstration.

Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgzs8KdlJ7Q

Hope you can understand my english, I don't post in here that often for obvious reasons (it took some work to write all this :cool:

lol).
Comment.

Pi · Sep 29, 2011

here's some more information about it

Rock Lee said:
Some of you may know this, I know someone posted the frame data a while ago, but I couldn't find it and told rohins I would find out so;

Yea, that just happened.

This is the exact process in frames, that I used on Dolphin
I was holding toward the stage every frame I could after release. You are invulnerable for all of these frames.

Grab Ledge
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Release Ledge
DJ
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Upair
-
-
Land
-
-
-
-Free to move on this frame
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

11 frames of totally exploitable invulnerability.

Also frame perfect regrabs have 7 frame of vulnerability.
You DJ on the 9th frame after releasing.

Rock Lee said:
this^

It's named Aerial Interrupting and it's a very viable tactic for samus

In video form;

ty phanna

You Upair (which changes your hurtbox as she goes upside down) within 2 frames of being above the stage. Basically where her head would be -in- the stage, and it'll 'Aerial Interrupt' and you'll simply 'land' on the stage, with 4 frames of landing lag.

Also you are invulnerable for 37 frames upon grabbing the ledge. 29 frames you are free to do whatever.

Frame perfect waveland offers 4 frames of exploitable invulnerability

ALSO

Using those 29 frames, you can air dodge & grapple, and if the grapple comes out before the 29 frames is up, the invulnerability carries through, and you'll be able to re-grab, being invulnerable the whole time.
(Talking grapple near the edge so it'll cancel the grapple and you'll grab the edge.)

So in essence we have 1 invulnerable re-grab to exploit.

it's good, the problem is you have to comit to doing it, and the move, so early for the move to be invulnerable

so if you know your opponent is going to be where you want him to hit him w/ the move then go for it, just no going back once you do it lol

i was fooling around w/ aerial interrupt -> buffered jump, or just jump, w/e,

idk, it's good, fool around with it and let us know what you come up with, i've had success with it, and failure with it, just depends on when you use it i guess

bubbaking · Oct 19, 2011

Is this technique harder to perform than super wavedashing?

Pi · Oct 19, 2011

much much easier than SWD

-Philip Coast Philip- · Oct 25, 2011

interesting idea with the light shield...(?)

bubbaking · Oct 27, 2011

-Philip Coast Philip- said:
interesting idea with the light shield...(?)

What was the idea w/ the light shield?

-Philip Coast Philip- · Oct 27, 2011

bubbaking said:
What was the idea w/ the light shield?

ledge cancel, hold z, pop up into full-sized shield.

i guess could be used in one or two very rare instances that i can think of, like blocking a recovery, or wanting to get pushed off again or just shield a move or something.

Pi · Oct 27, 2011

though you could potentially be at the spacing to do something like the marth killer, more often than not ur not going to be quite that close

unless ur suggesting using ur invincibility frames to re-grab the edge from a fire fox or something marth killer style

in which case...u'd have to be very specific with ur refreshing invincibility, and aerial interupting, and fast falling and all the stuff

unless u had somethin else in mind

-Philip Coast Philip- · Oct 28, 2011

lol yeah marth killer move would be a sick combo vid clip, now that i think of it.

i was mostly thinking marth killer, or perhaps shielding against dtilts and stuff... hadn't really thought it through. oh, i just thought of something - ledgecancel to powershield. try pulling that one off.

but yeah... my favorites are ftilt dsmash or grab after ledge cancel.

Pi · Oct 28, 2011

i want to use dtilt more, or dsmash

but i usually am in the habit of ftilting since most opponents aren't hanging so close to the ledge for fear of the fair

bubbaking · Oct 28, 2011

So this aerial interrupt is used somewhat commonly? It sounds like you two are using it.

Pi · Oct 28, 2011

yea, it's good

bubbaking · Oct 28, 2011

Do you often ledge cancel the zair to add invincibility? Also, I'm assuming that by ledge cancelling a zair, u mean u grapple the ledge while touching it?

Pi · Oct 28, 2011

i want to more, but if you mess up you die, and i usually am on the stage instead

so the situation doesn't occur very frequently in matches, i'd have to actually set up for it if i wanted to practice it

which is why i'm having difficulties implementing it

-Philip Coast Philip- · Oct 28, 2011

bubbaking said:
So this aerial interrupt is used somewhat commonly? It sounds like you two are using it.

oh heck no. it's used really rarely. most people now than ever use it, but... it's just a handful i'd imagine. i started using it on dk64 back a few years ago, and a WA player theprime has used it a bit... it's really uncommon.

but, if people got consistent with it, and found actually useful things to do with it... it'd be a good variety to add in every once in awhile, or it could be something used for a rare instance.

Violence · Oct 28, 2011

I saw Hugo(HugS, get name searched) playing some friendlies at Genesis, and on Yoshi's, he aerial interrupted off of the ledge and wavedashed back onto the ledge like 5 times in a row, it looked really slick.

MonkUnit · Oct 28, 2011

Was that recorded?

Pi · Oct 29, 2011

just go recreate it so you can see what it looks like lol

bubbaking · Oct 29, 2011

Seeing as how ledge cancelling gives Samus enough invincibility to actually pull off an invincible grab, does that mean she could also get an invincible charged shot (not counting lag, of course)?

Pi · Oct 29, 2011

grab comes out in 18 frames
done frame perfectly you only get 11 frames of invincibility
as for charge shot...
http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/Samus_frames_6.4.06.txt

Charge Shot

Total time to get full charge: 140

Starts charging: 14
Window for shooting charging shot:
14-132

--if you fire while charging--
Shot comes out on frame 2
30 frames of lag

--When you stop charging--
Shield: 8 frames of lag
Roll: happens immediately (frame 1)

--if you fire midair or full shot--
shot comes out on frame 15
29 frames of lag after that

Shot lasts 69 frames

Weakest shot shield stun: 6
Almost full shield stun: 20
Full shot shield stun: 23

15 frames
so no

fsmash is the laggiest move you could, theoretically, get out invincibly

bubbaking · Oct 31, 2011

Hmmm, I see. Now, maybe I misunderstood, but I was under the impression that the invincibility from the ledge-cancelled zair would "stack" on top of the invincibility from the original ledgegrab. Was this a wrong assumption?

Pi · Oct 31, 2011

yea, nothing stacks in this game lol

for example, if u perfect missile cancel and someone shields it u get like 8 frames of shieldhitstun to hit them again in
but if u do that, and then fsmash their shield, the two stuns won't 'stack'
it will just be in stun for the fsmash, since that was the last move that affected it

hitstun is the same way i think, but momentum is conserved

so idk if u've ever like, fsmashed someone into a weak missile or something
they get hit by the missile and are out of hitstun quickly, but are still flying, maybe dying

but yea, invincibility doesn't stack

also i'm not sure what you're referring too when u say ledge cancel zair

a ledge cancel is using your momentum to push yourself off of the edge while u do a move, so for example if you downair as link, but you are moving forward, if you land just before you slide off the ledge, it will prompt the landing lag, then quickly cancel it by sliding off of the edge

that's a ledge cancel

and a zair is the grapple, you can ledge cancel a zair, but it provides no invincibility, and no real benfit to doing it at all

bubbaking · Oct 31, 2011

Well, by ledge-cancelled zair, I was referring to zairing the ledge right next to it so your grapple animation is cancelled and you're on the ledge.

Pi · Oct 31, 2011

ah so u were thinking something like overlapping the same type of invincibility you get from grabbing the ledge ?

that'd be nifty risky and cool lol
but alas u cannot

bubbaking · Oct 31, 2011

Yeah, but I'm not sure if you got where that second invincibility would come from. It wouldn't be from grabbing the ledge again as it would be easy then to keep looping that one action over and over again just to maintain infinite invincibility. I was actually wondering if it could come from the air dodge one can perform before the zair...

Pi · Oct 31, 2011

well u only get 1 zair per jump, so when u cancel it, or use it, it's gone, have to touch ground again before u get it back

i'll test it out but i doubt it, when u grab ledge the next 37 frames you will be invincible
the air dodge is probably just encompassed in this, i don't think just because it's the same invincibility it will put the other on hold while this one takes effect, they probably just overlap in time

bubbaking · Nov 1, 2011

I see... Generally, I am somewhat confused by some of the wording used in the quotation enclosed by the very second post of this thread. Specifically, "Using those 29 frames [after letting go of the ledge right after grabbing it], you can air dodge & grapple, and if the grapple comes out before the 29 frames is up, the invulnerability carries through, and you'll be able to re-grab, being invulnerable the whole time.
(Talking grapple near the edge so it'll cancel the grapple and you'll grab the edge.)

So in essence we have 1 invulnerable re-grab to exploit."

Does this mean that Samus gets a completely invincible regrab that would allow her to withstand, say, acid from Brinstar for a period of time? In case you're wondering why I would mention Brinstar's acid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvNbEVAU_Eo#t=33s

O______O

Pi · Nov 1, 2011

yea that's what it means

bubbaking · Nov 2, 2011

Interesting... Too bad Samus can't grapple multiple times or she'd have her own version of that blasted Shino stall. >

Pi · Nov 2, 2011

yea
even if her grapple just refreshed when u grabbed the ledge instead of touched the ground
oh well

bubbaking · Nov 2, 2011

Well, anyway, even if I got my hopes up too much, this aerial interrupt could still net Samus a grab. Doing the tech perfectly allows Samus to mask the entire startup of an fsmash inside invincibility. Thus, she should be able to do the same for a grab, right? After all, we only need the startup to be invincible to make the move a bit safer.

Pi · Nov 2, 2011

you get 11 frames of invincibility from a perfectly executed aerial interupt from the ledge
grab comes out, starts grabbing, it's initial hitbox, on frame 18

so that would leave 7 dead frames where you're entirely vulnerable, IF you execute the technique PERFECTLY, which requires you to
let go of the edge 8 frames after you grabbed it
DJ the very next frame
Uair on the 11th frame after DJing
then grab 8 frames later

now this is melee, and we've all seen silent wolf where you at, ariquenubs, silent wolf & lovage berserker
but that is unreasonably specific to leave yourself vulnerable for 7 frames
even if there was a frame input on par with this ones specific requirements, and it spelt guaranteed death for the opponent
i would not reccomend practicing it

in short, use the 5-7 frames of invincibility you may be able to attain to jab, dsmash, dtilt, ftilt, ub, or dash and shield

if you're still not convinced that we shouldn't practice and perfect attaining the 11 frames of invincibility, practice SHFFM for a couple of hours and let me know how it goes

for that, at least, you have a 4 frame window to fast fall, and a 2 frame window to smash missile
i'm about 80% consistent with it out of pressure situations, and in pressure situations it varies, a lot. and i've put a lot of hours into this technique
and it's probably, i would say give or take a couple, a MILLION TIMES ****ING EASIER THAN GETTING 11 FRAMES OF INVINCIBILITY BY AERIAL INTERRUPTING

lol

Violence · Nov 2, 2011

I've been starting my training on this, just on a whim. I think the first thing to do is to just get aerial interrupts as second nature when shing onto platforms, like Stad, Yoshi's, BF, DL, different heights, etc.

Ledgehop aerial interrupts are so much harder, I think I'll work on them after I can consistently do it onto platforms.

bubbaking · Nov 2, 2011

Just thought of something. Please excuse my being stuck on this stall business, but I feel like having a way to safely stall for a bit on the edge helps ease some pressure. Anyway, Pi, could you let me know how this would work out, if at all? Samus uses her one completely invincibly regrab and then ledgehop aerial interrups>wd back>regrabs edge (and regains grapple). I know this may not be practical, due to frame perfection, but i'm curious as to whether it works.

JerkPhil · Jun 17, 2013

Bump... I've been practising AI (or what ever we're gonna call it) for around 24h total now and I kinda get the hang of it. Is it possible to wavedash back to the edge in those 11 frames or not? I don't have access to AR or such to measure it. (I have Brinstar though)

Anyway, this technique is useful for reaching high with jumps fast. Imagine double jump, interrupt on top platform, buffer jump by keep holding c-stick up and pressing shield, and then second double jump. It's hella fast!
There's a lot of new options at hand by landing on a platform faster than waveland.

Pi · Jul 1, 2013

JerkPhil said:
Bump... I've been practising AI (or what ever we're gonna call it) for around 24h total now and I kinda get the hang of it. Is it possible to wavedash back to the edge in those 11 frames or not? I don't have access to AR or such to measure it. (I have Brinstar though)

Anyway, this technique is useful for reaching high with jumps fast. Imagine double jump, interrupt on top platform, buffer jump by keep holding c-stick up and pressing shield, and then second double jump. It's hella fast!
There's a lot of new options at hand by landing on a platform faster than waveland.

if u want to wavedash back onto the edge then you don't need to AI, just jump over the ledge than WD back off, that would be faster than AI because when you AI you have to land, which is 4 frames, then you have to jump which is another 4 frames, then you wavedash
so just circumvent that by not AI'ing and instead just wavedashing out of your double jump over the edge

also it's not really any 'new options', it's more of just a faster than wavedash option, that serves essentially the same purpose but more reward for more risk

JerkPhil · Jul 5, 2013

Ah you're correct. My bad

Is anyone else but me actually using AI in matches? I just come home from a week long smash fest together with Armada and more. I really find AI useful!

Pi · Jul 5, 2013

it's good, i use it from the ledge mainly

ToTs · May 7, 2014

kinda off topic, but does this mean Samus can invincible Hax Dash. if I just wanted to grab ledge DJ WD back re-grab ledge. I can do it because i played falcon and roy a lot. but i don't know frames, for samus.

SUNG475 · May 7, 2014

Yea you can

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