The MK ban discussion

Meru. · Oct 1, 2011

Long story cut short; Meta Knight has just been banned in the US.

Will Europe be influenced by this change and what do we think about this in general?

Share your thoughts please :starman:

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 1, 2011

EU will be partly influenced but my region isn't affected by it so it's all good for me.

-LzR- · Oct 1, 2011

Doesn't matter for Finland, we banned MK a while before it was official.
EU not banning MK would really make their metagame even more different which I don't think is good for international tourneys, but not even USA is forced to listen to the Unity ruleset.

Marcbri · Oct 1, 2011

NSTV (to be announced pretty soon here I hope, although I won't attend) is more than likely to have MK banned.

Marc · Oct 1, 2011

-LzR-: It is an absurd notion that we are the deviants when the American scene is banning a character on its own, which is HUGE. Finland has been smug about it so far, but I haven't seen any reasoning from them. We're not an American state, we have our own scene with our own rules and it's always been that way. Blindly following the US hasn't done us any favours in international poltics and this is no different.

I will strongly distance myself from any scene who bans MK before there is an actual problem. I think the American ban is already questionable, but at least MK wins there and actually gets first at most nationals. The crux of their argument is that MK makes a lot of money and has a large variety of counterpicks. However, I can't even remember the last time MK won a large European tournament and any ban would be premature, to say the least. Banning a character is a big deal and with our ruleset (no Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar) and Japan still going strong with him legal, I see zero reason for Europe to join the American bandwagon. No one would even consider it if it weren't for them and I don't know any European top players who would be in favour of this. I can elaborate, but all arguments based on actual data for the American ban simply don't apply here.

Kasper! · Oct 2, 2011

Marc said:
-LzR-: It is an absurd notion that we are the deviants when the American scene is banning a character on its own, which is HUGE. Finland has been smug about it so far, but I haven't seen any reasoning from them. We're not an American state, we have our own scene with our own rules and it's always been that way. Blindly following the US hasn't done us any favours in international poltics and this is no different.

I will strongly distance myself from any scene who bans MK before there is an actual problem. I think the American ban is already questionable, but at least MK wins there and actually gets first at most nationals. The crux of their argument is that MK makes a lot of money and has a large variety of counterpicks. However, I can't even remember the last time MK won a large European tournament and any ban would be premature, to say the least. Banning a character is a big deal and with our ruleset (no Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar) and Japan still going strong with him legal, I see zero reason for Europe to join the American bandwagon. No one would even consider it if it weren't for them and I don't know any European top players who would be in favour of this. I can elaborate, but all arguments based on actual data for the American ban simply don't apply here.

This is the greatest post on smashboards ever.

Anaky · Oct 2, 2011

For one no-one else would ****ing consider it because we dont have a group of members to even say he could be banned, ive always known MK shud be banned.

Also him winning all the tournaments doesnt change how potentially broken he can be, people hate fighting him because he simply has too many broken attributes about him, those being.

This post isnt going to change anything, and neither will any other post which EU members make about this. Everyone has there own opinion and they are always gonna stick by it.

ZTD | TECHnology · Oct 3, 2011

Marc said:
-LzR-: It is an absurd notion that we are the deviants when the American scene is banning a character on its own, which is HUGE. Finland has been smug about it so far, but I haven't seen any reasoning from them. We're not an American state, we have our own scene with our own rules and it's always been that way. Blindly following the US hasn't done us any favours in international poltics and this is no different.

I will strongly distance myself from any scene who bans MK before there is an actual problem. I think the American ban is already questionable, but at least MK wins there and actually gets first at most nationals. The crux of their argument is that MK makes a lot of money and has a large variety of counterpicks. However, I can't even remember the last time MK won a large European tournament and any ban would be premature, to say the least. Banning a character is a big deal and with our ruleset (no Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar) and Japan still going strong with him legal, I see zero reason for Europe to join the American bandwagon. No one would even consider it if it weren't for them and I don't know any European top players who would be in favour of this. I can elaborate, but all arguments based on actual data for the American ban simply don't apply here.

I'm in the Unity Ruleset Committee and .....I respect this post. A LOT.

K@0S · Oct 3, 2011

I would stop maining MK if I was still playing Brawl anyway

Mew2King · Oct 3, 2011

hopefully you europeans are smarter than the americans

seems like you are, that's good

King Funk · Oct 3, 2011

Anaky said:
Also him winning all the tournaments doesnt change how potentially broken he can be, people hate fighting him because he simply has too many broken attributes about him, those being.

Americans banned him much more for how overused he was rather than for how good as a character he was. If we ban a character that's not even overused in our continent just for the argument that he's theoretically broken, we'll look even dumber than the URC.

Anaky · Oct 3, 2011

Ok Funk that's fair enough, and thats what everyone has said. But what were to happen if MK started dominating in the EU, and then people decided on a ban, what a waste of time it was putting all that MK training in.

Lord Chair · Oct 4, 2011

That's too speculative and it really shouldn't matter too much, especially when seen in praxis. If a country wants to ban him just give players a transition period much like they're doing with the 'after Apex' stuff.

King Funk · Oct 4, 2011

Anaky said:
Ok Funk that's fair enough, and thats what everyone has said. But what were to happen if MK started dominating in the EU, and then people decided on a ban, what a waste of time it was putting all that MK training in.

Wait till it happens until you take any decision. It's not like most of us are putting any kind of training at the moment into MK. (except maybe in doubles =D)

Lord Chair · Oct 4, 2011

Why do we have 3 topics on this lol.

Anaky · Oct 4, 2011

I have no idea lol, there's 4 threads im posting in for this lmao.

Also i dont see it as too speculative, its not like the chances of it are extremly low of happening.

Lord Chair · Oct 4, 2011

No but being proactive with regards to this sort of thing is a bit over the top. It's not like the world will end if MK becomes dominant here, and the fact that he's (been) banned in several regions throughout the world right now I'm pretty sure everyone is smart enough not to put all their heart in the character at this point.

How many people are picking up MK in Europe anyway? No offense Andy but yours sucks balls and as Orion has said before all the scrubs picking him up do not appear to get carried by him (probably because those people suck and MK isn't broken when the player controlling him sucks).

Anaky · Oct 4, 2011

F*CK YOU. But serious my MK is good in certain matchups like Marth and Snake, the rest i just autopilot. I think i could place pretty well in Europe with him tbh, not as well as winning with Marth though.

Marc · Oct 4, 2011

Then go ahead and win it big with him. Even then it doesn't matter much since you're already perceived as good. There's even a statistical analysis for the American scene that scientifically proves that picking MK does not raise your chances: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=123676
Either way it's silly to ban a character because of potential problems that after 3 years still haven't surfaced here. If he becomes a problem, that's when we'll deal with it.

Technical_Chase said:
I'm in the Unity Ruleset Committee and .....I respect this post. A LOT.

Cheers.

Anaky · Oct 4, 2011

I understand and respect what your saying, and for that matter everyone else.

Orion* · Oct 5, 2011

Anaky said:
how potentially broken he can be, people hate fighting him because he simply has too many broken attributes about him, those being...

Bar planking / LGL
give me something broken. you can name lots gay ****, but the same can be done for like every high tier character :|

Don't get me wrong, he's the best. But he's not broken

Anaky said:
Ok Funk that's fair enough, and thats what everyone has said. But what were to happen if MK started dominating in the EU, and then people decided on a ban, what a waste of time it was putting all that MK training in.

You act like every tournament in America is banning him also though. It's MAYBE like a speculated 20-30% of tournaments Reported On SWF after apex. Until then it's still optional.

Anaky said:
But serious my MK is good in certain matchups like Marth and Snake, the rest i just autopilot. I think i could place pretty well in Europe with him tbh, not as well as winning with Marth though.

Considering how marth is essentially just a worse metaknight... yet you think that you would do better with an overall character in most aspects. Kinda proves your point that he can only be so good

A character being strong =/= broken.
Either way, I'm actually curious do you have matches vs Calz up ?

Meru. · Oct 8, 2011

Lord Chair said:
Why do we have 3 topics on this lol.

I was first and made a thread in the right section (get at Crifer!).

Budget Player Cadet_ · Oct 9, 2011

Anaky said:
Also him winning all the tournaments doesnt change how potentially broken he can be, people hate fighting him because he simply has too many broken attributes about him, those being.

-.-

Marc said:
-LzR-: It is an absurd notion that we are the deviants when the American scene is banning a character on its own, which is HUGE. Finland has been smug about it so far, but I haven't seen any reasoning from them. We're not an American state, we have our own scene with our own rules and it's always been that way. Blindly following the US hasn't done us any favours in international poltics and this is no different.

I will strongly distance myself from any scene who bans MK before there is an actual problem. I think the American ban is already questionable, but at least MK wins there and actually gets first at most nationals. The crux of their argument is that MK makes a lot of money and has a large variety of counterpicks. However, I can't even remember the last time MK won a large European tournament and any ban would be premature, to say the least. Banning a character is a big deal and with our ruleset (no Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar) and Japan still going strong with him legal, I see zero reason for Europe to join the American bandwagon. No one would even consider it if it weren't for them and I don't know any European top players who would be in favour of this. I can elaborate, but all arguments based on actual data for the American ban simply don't apply here.

<3<3

Mew2King said:
hopefully you europeans are smarter than the americans

seems like you are, that's good

Move to NL! Legal weed, great economy, smash scene that doesn't have MK banned!

Anaky · Oct 9, 2011

Lol people need to stop replying to my old posts.

Orion* · Oct 10, 2011

Anaky said:
Lol people need to stop replying to my old posts.

Maybe you should respond to the points brought up accurately and people will stop :troll:

Anaky · Oct 10, 2011

It's your time your wasting replying.

Lord Chair · Oct 10, 2011

dat anaky going in

Yuna · Oct 12, 2011

King Funk said:
Americans banned him much more for how overused he was rather than for how good as a character he was. If we ban a character that's not even overused in our continent just for the argument that he's theoretically broken, we'll look even dumber than the URC.

They're trying to cater to the scrubs/n00bs. They want to make the game more "accessible" to n00bs/scrubs (in order to generate larger pots), which means they have to ban things simply because the majority wants it so and because the majority think it's "boring" to play against.

Which is the stupidest reason for a ban, ever.

There's a reason why he hasn't been banned until now: No one has ever been able to prove that he should be banned because he is "too good". In fact, they still can't. I pray that Europe won't fall for the scrubby mentality that has gripped the U.S. scene. "It's not fun to play against!". Oh, really? Then stop playing the game, you scrub.

C+P job from the official MK Ban thread:
Banning something because the game is "More fun" without it and because "The majority want it so" is stupid. The majority once condoned slavery. It doesn't mean that slavery has ever been right.

"More fun" is a stupid criteria to base how one writes a Competitive ruleset on. What's next? Chaingrabs and infinites are "boring" and the game is more "fun" without them, so let's ban them? The game is more "fun" without tripping, so let's hack it out? The game is more "fun" with more stages allowed, so let's just hack the banned stages to remove the elements which cause them to be banned? Heck, Snake is boring as Hell to play against. Let's ban him too!

The majority isn't always right and "fun" should never, ever be a criteria around which one shapes a Competitive ruleset.

"There are too many Meta-Knights" and "Too many Meta-Knights win tournament" is such a stupid argument. Ban him if he's broken, if he actually prevents other characters from even coming close to doing well simply by his nature, not because people choose to main him at the expense of worse characters. A quick look at most Competitive tournament communities will reveal a centralization of characters among most games because most games have a Top or S-tier around which tier*****s can flock.

I have always and will always view this ban as wrong (unless Meta-Knight is proven to simply be broken).

teluoborg · Oct 14, 2011

And how, in your humble opinion, do we prove MK to simply be broken ?

And lol@putting MK and tripping in the same bag, tripping is actually the most hilarious thing in Brawl since it's juste Sakurai tolling competitive players.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Oct 14, 2011

teluoborg said:
And how, in your humble opinion, do we prove MK to simply be broken ?

Let's just say that having him win a few internationals would be a start. :laugh:

Flayl · Oct 14, 2011

How much is a few? Pound V, Genesis 2, KTAR 6...

Thino · Oct 14, 2011

teluoborg said:
And how, in your humble opinion, do we prove MK to simply be broken ?

I like that kind of question.

if you don't know HOW to prove MK to be broken, then that must mean he might not be, because when someone is convinced himself that a character is broken, s/he has a reasons or several reasons.

if you mentions those reasons in an argument but you can't convince people that think opposite, you can either:

1) find other reasons.
2) reconsider thinking if MK is actually broken or not.
3) be butthurt and camp on your position, in that case you stop arguing and discussing about it.

not sure if even International would be enough to prove that MK is broken, it just means he's good just like in U.S Nationals

Flayl · Oct 14, 2011

He's preemptively asking for criteria so if the character meets it you can't back out. Like anti-ban's criteria several polls eariler lol

Mew2King · Oct 14, 2011

The only MKs that have ever won big tournaments are me and ally, and ally would win regardless like he's proved to be able to do with Snake (among other chars) for YEARS.

for me I was the BEST (2nd best at worst) at Melee when Brawl came out, then I pretty much dedicated my life to brawl and past 3 years straight, only to metaknight. I took college off 2 years to travel with brawl, and I only play one character, and I go to a tournament EVERY WEEKEND. I plan my travels and schedules to accomodate it. I trained for MLG more than anybody, and saved my best controllers for nationals and it shows. (Also when I mained DDD, the first half a year I was debatably the best or most successful player until my main change to MK. I won fast1 with all DDD, was able to 3 stock top MKs with him like Forte back when he was winning md/va tournaments, beat azen half the time (who was also top 3, thanks to melee probably) and won low tier tourneys with ike.

Us two are OBVIOUSLY REALLY GOOD REGARDLESS. I shouldn't have go use ANOTHER CHARACTER yet AGAIN after this long. There's no reason, except that TOs in power got together and decided, hey, we don't like MK, and more people will vote to ban him if we ask "should we ban the best character who beats your favorite character?" OF COURSE most people will say what benefits them, which is why polls are so terrible to use. It's TERRIBLE criteria for BANNING A CHARACTER, ESPECIALLY WHEN MOST PRO BANS FINALLY ADMIT HE'S NOT BROKEN. New excuse is overcentralizing, which I actually ENJOY (and it's only 19% of users -_- there seemed like there was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more falcos last few tourneys I attended than MK players).

Any argument to get their way though. Hopefully you other countries are smarter than America, the ultimate ******* country

Flayl · Oct 14, 2011

I agree that it's terrible criteria.

Claire Diviner · Oct 14, 2011

Well, you can always go to non MK-banned tourneys. I'm positive they'll hold those kinds of tournaments around the country despite the ban. That, or you can travel to Europe and Japan, where MK is still legal... but who would want to go through all that trouble? Actually, I think I would, if I had the funds to do so. :3

Edit: By the way, your avatar looks like the love child of Pippi Longstocking and Mortal Kombat's Baraka. x_____X

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