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Meta Knight Officially Banned!

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da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
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I am only suggesting the URC rules are getting too convoluted and compromising. It's time to...
Right. Because saying 'yo, you cant pick that guy' is FAR less understandable and far more complecated than forcing everyone at a tournment to buy an sd card, learn how to work smash stack, download all the correct files, and memorising all of the specific intracate changes that some random possibly biased people made to the game that most people were enjoying to begin with....

right..
can't we all just talk about how banned meta knight is now?

i mean he's like, so banned
DUPER banned.
 

Krystedez

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Sakurai's comment is actually on how SF4 uses rectangular hitboxes, while Smash uses circular.
So does that mean Sakurai will try to go back to cubes/boxes or whatever for Smash 4, or is he just making an observation?

I wonder... How it would have been if Brawl used squares...

OH YES IM STILL UP! workin on this paper, do do doooo~
 

~Tac~

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So does that mean Sakurai will try to go back to cubes/boxes or whatever for Smash 4, or is he just making an observation?

I wonder... How it would have been if Brawl used squares...

OH YES IM STILL UP! workin on this paper, do do doooo~
Wario's hitboxes would be disgustingly good.
 

El Duderino

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Right. Because saying 'yo, you cant pick that guy' is FAR less understandable and far more complecated than forcing everyone at a tournment to buy an sd card, learn how to work smash stack, download all the correct files, and memorising all of the specific intracate changes that some random possibly biased people made to the game that most people were enjoying to begin with....

right..

DUPER banned.
We just have a difference of opinion. You would rather everyone just sucks up the character ban and other pitfalls. I would rather people suck up the SD card so we can keep Meta Knight and stop the ridiculous edge counting rules. Among other things of course.

The SD card is not really the issue though. Neither is the install and use, as it is very simple. The smash community is too dedicated to let any of those silly reasons get in the way. No, it's convincing people to adopt which has more to do with the community than the game. The only way opinions will change is with time and other Mod's showing it can be done well.
 

-Ran

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Interesting enough, most high tier mains hate the ditto against their own character. I wonder what effect this will happen on the metagame, as surely the more 'silly' dittos such as Falco vs Falco will push players away from those characters.
 

Shadic

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So does that mean Sakurai will try to go back to cubes/boxes or whatever for Smash 4, or is he just making an observation?
Consider we've had spheres for two Smash games now, I doubt it would be changing. Smash64's rectangular hitboxes were likely a technical thing to cut down on processing.

I'm not exactly sure how hitboxes are drawn/attached to characters in Street Fighter, but I imagine they're placed on the character frame-by-frame, (Although this very well may vary by title in SF - A quick glance at SF4 shows that it does appear that they're attached to some character bones.) while Smash attaches hitboxes to character's bones and actually renders them into the Z axis as well. (Same with hurtboxes, which is why Dedede's spot dodge is so asinine.)

The different methods make sense for how the two games work. Street Fighter's system is probably descendent from the 2D days, and there's not much need to "fix what ain't broke" in the series.

tldr; Pretty sure Street Fighter renders their hit/hurtboxes entirely in 2D, while Smash does so in 3D. Each has its benefits, but I'd be surprised if Smash switched over.
 

TheLastCacely

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Transcendent. Tired. Also, Pikachu doesn't have three recovery moves, 4 frame-ish downsmash.

MK also have like 70+ -30 matchups. Including a 95 to 5 or something. Absurd.

And MK still has no party hat. Therefore, bannable.
i dont know why this made me laugh so much.


and to stay on topic.


this ban is the best thing that has happened to brawl since like.... brawl was announced for production... or like
































Ally beating m2k for the first time :)
 

Thino

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so if I understand correctly URC members are chosen from the most notorious TO's around the community?

so people give them **** because they think not placing top 5 means you dont know **** about the game necessarily?
 

Metakill

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Twinkie, each time I see your signature... Oh God.. <3

on topic:
So... Tier List v7 will take so much time, right? maybe... March/April with the first nationals withouth MK.

Time to get back to my Melee Main, :marth: <3
 

Ghostbone

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Interesting enough, most high tier mains hate the ditto against their own character. I wonder what effect this will happen on the metagame, as surely the more 'silly' dittos such as Falco vs Falco will push players away from those characters.
Dittos are pretty silly most of the time.

Snake dittos aren't tooo bad.
Diddy dittos are hilarious
Falco dittos are gay.
IC dittos make no sense.
Marth dittos are decent.
Wario dittos are mega lol.
Olimar dittos are just....bad
Idk about Lucario dittos
D3 dittos are funny and gay at the same time.
idk about the rest, but yea, I doubt people will want to play the ditto often.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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In terms of dittos, Wario and Snake dittos are personally my favorite matchups to play and watch in brawl
 

Dnyce

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About 1000 posts in.... gotta take a break, haha.

I'm somewhat disappointed in the community, but not for wanting metaknight banned. Shutouts to the 5 or so people (outside of the URC members) who didn't troll, flame or instantly lash out with linear "logic"/opinions. I thoroughly respect you all.

Another shoutout to the URC members for this ban. Came out of retirement this weekend for an mk banned event. First in singles.... still bad in doubles haha. Attendance was double what I've seen in the past and there seemed to be way less rage/depression at the event. It's evident that I'm horrendously bias here, lol but I look forward to playing brawl again :)


The only thing that has irk'd me so far is the whole "learn the match-up" thing. I can honestly say I have devoted more time to studying and practicing mk than I have the rest of the cast combined. I would argue being one of the more knowledgeable people from the Olimar side of the match-up; however, I'm pretty sure Rich and Dabuz still out perform me vs mk results wise. Despite this, I find I have been able to continuously help them with strategy, gimmicks, game-mechanic abuse etc and tell them with things they didn't know about the match-up since MLG kicked off in 2010. Before this summer I had even designed/made several technical advancements for Olimar, many of which are rarely applicable outside the mk match-up, for the sole purpose of being able to place higher than second. At the end of the day though... after 3 years of competitive play... no matter how much I studied (videos/blogs/frame data etc), no matter the diversity or consistency of 'good' mks I practiced with, no matter how much advice I got from the mks I lost to (or beat) or other top level Olimars, no matter what breakthroughs I made in the smashlab or ATs I invented or gimmicks I produced, no matter how many hours I sat here in my apartment with m2k practicing while he feed me advice... roughly 80-85% of my tournament losses have been to mk (I've kept stats/records).

It's w/e though, I just need learn the match-up.
 

Eddie G

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Interesting enough, most high tier mains hate the ditto against their own character. I wonder what effect this will happen on the metagame, as surely the more 'silly' dittos such as Falco vs Falco will push players away from those characters.
Indeed. I know Shugo is already contemplating what character he can develop to take the place of his Metaknight in avoiding Falco dittos, ICs, etc. That right there is a winner's mindset, and I'm pretty ashamed of anyone who quit over this ban.

:phone:
 

Krystedez

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As for me, I have to worry about Hunger's wario in dittos, he knows tires, and tires > bike unfortunately. I need to counterpick his tires with Pit or Olimar I think. Who knows! :3
 

GwJ

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Also, for the purpose of the counter (if anyone still cares about it), I'm coming back now because of the ban.
 

Eddie G

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Pit should do nicely. I can't imagine him being too familiar with the matchup, let alone a Pit of your particular level Krys.

/ Peach will be making a return as my co-main now, btw. :)

:phone:
 

LKratos

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As a toon link main, I'm just really looking forward to being able to focus my attention on my OTHER absolutely horrid matchup (falco) instead of just worry about rushdown.jpeg (MK). Having to develop a completely independent strategy for one character was frustrating.
 

Meru.

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Let's actually compare match-up charts shall we.

BlazBlue
Brawl

Rachel has one match-up where she is slightly disadvantaged. The rest are all good and most of them are 60-40 with two 70-30. She has a 45-55 against one other character who is also top. She pretty much dominates the rest of the case. Meta-Knight is slightly advantaged against a good number of the cast, but has a lot of evens as well. his overall ranking is that he has an advantage where most of the top characters have a slight advantage. Note that against none of the top characters does he have a large advantage and many of them are slight if not even. It only gets bad against the bottom of the cast, but they get stomped by the top anyway. Basically, it is not unwinnable and Meta-Knight can be beaten as very few of the top characters really have a large disadvantage.

See, there is a difference between being over powered and broken. Broken means there is no other reason to pick another character over them. Over powered means they are really damn good. Meta-Knight does have a lot of advantages, but very few where he dominates. He is no different than Sagat who did very well against the top cast. meta-Knight instead does Ok against the top, if not has a slight edge. Of course, better play mitigates it. Improving of the character's meta-game will also mitigate it.

Basically, I'm saying that the arguement are kid of bull. Yeah he's strong. Is he as unbeatable as you all think he is? No. This is more likely a few players being upset that they can't deal with Mutas Meta-Knight.
That match-up chart is old as well, although it is still quite accurate. It also makes me wonder how you can even think of Rachel being as unbalanced as Meta Knight when she clearly has 3 even match-ups (Nu is considered even now). Blazblue only had 12 characters, so, excluding herself, she was even with 3/11 of the cast. Furthermore he had 6 60-40's (Noel 55-45?? @_@) and 2 70-30's. Well I wish Meta Knight had such match-ups. Also dont forget that facing a disadvantaged match-up is MUCH easier in Blazblue! Their 70-30 is more like... our +2.

People keep telling you to stop comparing this fighting game (community) to other fighting game(s) (communities) but you keep doing it. And sorry but everytime you attempt to make a comparison you simply fail at it.

:053:
 

Smooth Criminal

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That match-up chart is old as well, although it is still quite accurate. It also makes me wonder how you can even think of Rachel being as unbalanced as Meta Knight when she clearly has 3 even match-ups (Nu is considered even now). Blazblue only had 12 characters, so, excluding herself, she was even with 3/11 of the cast. Furthermore he had 6 60-40's (Noel 55-45?? @_@) and 2 70-30's. Well I wish Meta Knight had such match-ups. Also dont forget that facing a disadvantaged match-up is MUCH easier in Blazblue! Their 70-30 is more like... our +2.
I think you are forgetting the fact that MK isn't getting banned here in the States just because of his inherent strengths as a character. That's only a small fraction of the reason. :p

I may not be a proponent of this ban, but c'mon, at least I have an idea of where they're coming from.

Smooth Criminal
 

tekkie

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redhalberd is a good player who knows how to play more than one simple OP character and thus will be fine/not cry like a girl
 

Gamegenie222

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MK banned finallly but I don't play brawl at all anymore so I don't care either way.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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You are right. It is very similar. The only difference is one gives the opportunity to fix a problem rather than ban it from the game or make up ridiculous rules to get around it. Planking prevention and saving a character are far more realistic to do with the former.
"Ridiculous rules". How is putting rules in Meta Knight users so he can't dominate the cast super easily an exact bad thing now? Let's keep in mind that even with all the rules that put in to nerf him, he's still winning the most, and by quite a large margin. And no, what you're saying is not any more realistic. We ban stuff in sports too for a reason. Illegal plays, wrestling moves, and so on. Both are competitive, by the way. If you're in something heavily competitive rules are needed for various reasons, including inducing fair play.

People can always run tournaments with their own rules, that does not mean I have to agree with how the URC is addressing the problem or cannot voice my opinion.
Which you've already voiced your opinion. You're simply advertising another way to play it,
which notably you're not getting very many people who agree with your idea anyway. It's not a bad one, but you have to remember that your idea is basically telling us we should cheat in competition. And that's what hacks are, cheating. It's basically a glorified Cheat Device. Now, I don't care what people do for fun, but cheating in money competition is frowned upon for reasons. Perhaps it's more than morals? Perhaps it's because it breaks the rules in general?

Nothing says those types of changes cannot be retracted, or altered to meet the needs of whatever the committee decides should be standard. I would argue most of those changes are for the better as they cut through rules clutter, help the balance, and open up more of the game in a competitive setting, but you are free to disagree.
And that committee runs their own tournaments. Don't play in them if you don't wish to. Nobody is saying you should, after all. We respect that you don't like it. Or atleast I do.

You are arguing all hypotheticals here that keep getting more and more specific. Go to your local drug store and you'll find a similar deal on SD cards and readers. These days they are almost as common as batteries.
Yeah, and those hypotheticals exist as well. Also, as I said earlier, I don't promote competitive cheating. It's clear by now that the URC doesn't either. But you can specifically make a new topic appealing to them(or go to an appropriate topic for that).

I'm not complaining about making rules or forcing a specific play style, that happens regardless. I am only suggesting the URC rules are getting too convoluted and compromising. It's time to start, at the very least, considering the alternative to make the next positive step forward.
And some people find that a "negative" step instead. And actually, yes, you are complaining about it. You're also telling us we should specifically use Balanced Brawl instead of banning character. The only way for this to work is that every American player has to get Balanced Brawl. Now, I don't know about you, but it sounds like you're suggesting a monopoly on something that's meant for fun. Likewise, many people do not like to cheat, and would refuse to do it on that principle alone. Are they wrong for playing the game without cheating?
 

Thino

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I think you are forgetting the fact that MK isn't getting banned here in the States just because of his inherent strengths as a character. That's only a small fraction of the reason. :p

I may not be a proponent of this ban, but c'mon, at least I have an idea of where they're coming from.

Smooth Criminal
the usual retort SmashChu will have to that, is that the Brawl cannot argue as to why they don't do like other fighting games communities when it comes to banning characters or not.

he doesn't understand that the reason is not because Smash games are not conventional fighting games/are party games or whatever, that is not the point, neither are the matchup comparison between games.

The Brawl community is not dealing with this situation the same way as other fighting game communities simply because the Brawl community is NOT the other fighting games community or any other genre for that matter.

Every community has its own way to deal with situation, just because the genre is similar doesnt mean the Brawl community as to copy anyone else.

MK could have been banned just because people don't like his wings or his masked face for that matter, it wouldn't change anything to the fact that it's something that the community decided and that JUST because other communities are acting in a different way in a similar situation doesnt mean the Brawl community has to do it too.
 

LlamaSensei

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I play Melee nowadays, and the reason is literally Metaknight. After going to my first OoS Brawl tournament to run into somewhere close to 75% MK's there, I quit Brawl and moved to Melee. The fact that such a broken character was allowed in competitive matches was disheartening to me.

With the MK ban I will probably actually put the Brawl disc back in my Wii and compete in the MK banned brawl tourneys nearby. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens when one character is not dominating the whole game.

:phone:
 

Ripple

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I'm honestly surprised m2k hasn't been in here
 

Exceladon City

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Shadow has a really solid wario actually
I know. It's not as good as his MK though. I'm sure he'll be on the road to being a top Wario though. Kid is nasty.

Sure, people will move on. The question though is what to next? Banning MK saves a portion of the community from continuing on a downward spiral while splintering the rest. The principle of it can turn away new and seasoned players alike, as well any hopes people have of getting Nintendo on board with the competitive scene.

That is nothing to go parading in the streets about, especially with how divided the community already is. It may be the necessary choice, but it is a very sad reality it had to come to this. That is all.
The community was split for the worst with MK being legal. People were talking of quitting or legitimately working on having MK as a main or a tool against other MKs if he didn't get banned. He hurts the community because he forces 2 decisions: 1. Pick MK or 2. Quit.

"Get better" only goes so far before you have to pick MK. I had MK as a secondary mainly for the ditto against MKs that literally would plank me or nado camp the entire time. I don't feel like I should have to play a character that I don't necessarily enjoy playing just to make sure I have a fair chance. Even then, it's still disadvantaged for me because they know MK better than I do. I used to be anti-ban because I was like "I still have room to grow in the MK MU" and I got pretty good at the MU to take down MKs that were around my skill level, until they just played really gay against me.

With him being banned, more people come out to tournaments. So many people quit this game because Meta Knight was a problem. The news of him being banned has sparked interest in many inactive players. The only people that are going to be butthurt over this are the ones that are like "I can't win without MK!" period.
 
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