The morse code crap was Adum saying "Swiss, I saw you visit Sokr last night." He's either the town/mafia tracker and really saw townswiss visit Sokr (how else would he know) or he and swiss are scummates and decided to do elaborate faking.
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Britches and Hose Mafia - Game Over!
- Thread starter Gova
- Start date
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Ok, let me make this clear.
Swiss targeted sokr n1, I see no reason for a scum role to target him unless he died, it did not make sense.
If sokr target ryker and scum didn't, we're still missing a kill. Asdioh claimed no rb on n1 and swiss targeted sokr unless somebody got redirected into targeting. Add that to the fact that ryker was a really attractive scumkill n1 (power player, just replaced in so had no connections, unlikely doc target cause people didn't have time to develop reads).
Also, I don't think kantrip is paranoid, I'll explain as soon as i get internet access again.
Swiss targeted sokr n1, I see no reason for a scum role to target him unless he died, it did not make sense.
If sokr target ryker and scum didn't, we're still missing a kill. Asdioh claimed no rb on n1 and swiss targeted sokr unless somebody got redirected into targeting. Add that to the fact that ryker was a really attractive scumkill n1 (power player, just replaced in so had no connections, unlikely doc target cause people didn't have time to develop reads).
Also, I don't think kantrip is paranoid, I'll explain as soon as i get internet access again.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Basically, I think RR knew there was a gunsmith, which suggests a scum role that counters it somehow.
Swiss
Smash Lord
VT (JTB)
VT (Ryker)
VT? (Soup)
VT (July)
VT (Felipe)
VT (John2k4)
Census (Sword)
Roleblocker (Asdioh)
Gunsmith (Kantrip)
Combat Medic (Sokr)
Red Ruy
Swiss (Roleblocker/Redirector/Jailer)
Adum (Tracker)
This is the easiest explanation in my eyes. I already guessed earlier that if Adum or Swiss was scum, then so was the other, and the gunsmith results only back that up.
There are other options though. It could be adum/July as Kantrip suggested, or Felipe could be scum, etc.
But this seems most likely to me.
At the very least, a Swiss or Adum lynch would garner a toooon of information, regardless of flip.
VT (Ryker)
VT? (Soup)
VT (July)
VT (Felipe)
VT (John2k4)
Census (Sword)
Roleblocker (Asdioh)
Gunsmith (Kantrip)
Combat Medic (Sokr)
Red Ruy
Swiss (Roleblocker/Redirector/Jailer)
Adum (Tracker)
This is the easiest explanation in my eyes. I already guessed earlier that if Adum or Swiss was scum, then so was the other, and the gunsmith results only back that up.
There are other options though. It could be adum/July as Kantrip suggested, or Felipe could be scum, etc.
But this seems most likely to me.
At the very least, a Swiss or Adum lynch would garner a toooon of information, regardless of flip.
Oh come on.
What makes you think that?
You were the only one to mention the word "gunsmith" in the thread before toDay. Did RR know because you relayed the information to him? ಠ_ಠ
Kantrip
Kantplay
Vote: adumbrodeus
Swiss
Smash Lord
Don't lynch Adum without my express permission.
I'm serious.
I'm serious.
Swiss
Smash Lord
And for the love of God - if myself and Adum were scum, we would have already endgamed you all. No way would we ever, possibly get caught working together.
Kantrip
Kantplay
Adum this response is horrific and you should feel bad. No, but really. I wouldn't think one would be informed if they were redirected unless they get a result back normally. You know, like what Swiss said he clarified with Gova about roleblockers? All Swiss knows is he targeted Sokr, and you telling him this could easily be a lie, with you KNOWING he was redirected to Swords.
Kantrip
Kantplay
adum/July is more likely than adum/Swiss.
Adum is my lynch choice because he's in both of these. We will wait for Swiss's express permission, lest he flips a table at our stupidity or something.
Adum is my lynch choice because he's in both of these. We will wait for Swiss's express permission, lest he flips a table at our stupidity or something.
Swiss
Smash Lord
I flip a lot.
Let me get home, read, think, question Adum.
Let me get home, read, think, question Adum.
Swiss
Smash Lord
Spending more of my day on mafia than working....
I don't know about that, but I can see how you two being together would be unlikely. From the beginning, you've painted targets on yourselves so that it would be impossible to get to lategame without suspecting you.
Hey Adum, did you ever state why you tracked July N2? That's a crucial piece of information and I'm surprised you didn't include it. Unless I just missed it.
Swiss
Smash Lord
Unless that's what we want you to think.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
You're missing a crucial piece of information, how would I know he targeted sokr initially?
Without that information how would I know that he was actually redirected to swords in the first place since bus drivers target two roles and switch them.
This post and this post. At first I thought he was an investigative role of some stripe and trying to figure out whether he should be counter-claiming.
But with his flip, this simply doesn't make sense to me unless he already knew something.
I thought it was obvious, shot in the dark looking for scum three.
I figured that it was unlikely they'd have the killer be somebody who was heavily suspected and I hoped I'd get lucky.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
It's signifigantly countered by partial flips. Given that, the double RB is the only role that really stands out.
No, seriously. Sokr had no connections and was generally seen as town, except by swiss. Scum-wiss killing him would make sense, but he was an unlikely target for pretty much everything that a scum power would have because of his generally townie status.
...
Ok, if I were a scum tracker how exactly would I know that there was a gunsmith. This attack is just stupid.
Asdioh, you're better then this.
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Gunsmith
"The Gunsmith is an information role that can target a player at Night to learn if they have a gun in flavor. Members of the Mafia (that are not Doctors), Cops, FBI Agents, Vigilantes, other Gunsmiths, Paranoid Gun Owners, etc. all have guns in traditional flavor. Notably, Serial Killers and Doctors do not have guns."
Kantrip, I want to see if you can read my mind. When I quoted that section of the gunsmith role, what was I thinking, and who was I thinking it about?
Then again, if you had known that, you probably would have killed Kantrip as scum.
I don't know. I have to go to work again
"The Gunsmith is an information role that can target a player at Night to learn if they have a gun in flavor. Members of the Mafia (that are not Doctors), Cops, FBI Agents, Vigilantes, other Gunsmiths, Paranoid Gun Owners, etc. all have guns in traditional flavor. Notably, Serial Killers and Doctors do not have guns."
Kantrip, I want to see if you can read my mind. When I quoted that section of the gunsmith role, what was I thinking, and who was I thinking it about?
Ok, this makes sense to me.
Who is scum number two?
...my point is that it's pretty normal for scum to have someone kill, and have someone else use a role (tracker, roleblocker, etc) to find some PRs. Even if you did track Swiss visiting someone that didn't die, that doesn't make him town.
Well, the scumteam obviously know each others' roles. Maybe one person is a tracker, but there might be someone that directly or indirectly counters gunsmiths. Either way, you could have found Kantrip's crumbs and pointed them out.
Then again, if you had known that, you probably would have killed Kantrip as scum.
I don't know. I have to go to work again
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I thought john.
This is the definite weak link in your post, I explained this already. It wasn't that I saw him visiting somebody that didn't die. It's WHO I saw him visiting, a sokr visit doesn't make sense from scum unless he died.
And yea, this is really fracking townie.
Your 1325 is terrible asdioh, very shotgun approach to scumhunting, but your 1340 reads very townie. I need to think and continue my reread.
Kantrip
Kantplay
Asdioh, I've read that article already (it was my first instinct when I got my role PM). I thought adum was a cop from his communicating with Swiss (which would have a gun), and I'm not sure if a tracker would.
All mafia members come up with a gun though, regardless of role (except doctor/jailer. I know you think scum jailer is possible, so I would be led to assume that is your theoretical counter to the gunsmith you are looking for.
I was expecting there to be a rolecop somewhere in this set up due to the partial flips, and scum rolecop is possible. Scum knowing roles before this claim is something we should consider.
Adum, you and Swiss communicated about targeting Sokr. It would be easy for this conclusion to be made by you. As a bus driver you could have picked Sokr and Swords to be switched. Swords was a scummy player at that point in the game and Sokr was an obv town newbie. Switching actions on the two would be a logical choice. That way, when Swords claimed to be roleblocked, you would then know the roleblocker targeted Sokr.
All mafia members come up with a gun though, regardless of role (except doctor/jailer. I know you think scum jailer is possible, so I would be led to assume that is your theoretical counter to the gunsmith you are looking for.
I was expecting there to be a rolecop somewhere in this set up due to the partial flips, and scum rolecop is possible. Scum knowing roles before this claim is something we should consider.
Adum, you and Swiss communicated about targeting Sokr. It would be easy for this conclusion to be made by you. As a bus driver you could have picked Sokr and Swords to be switched. Swords was a scummy player at that point in the game and Sokr was an obv town newbie. Switching actions on the two would be a logical choice. That way, when Swords claimed to be roleblocked, you would then know the roleblocker targeted Sokr.
Kantrip
Kantplay
Adum, Asdioh is town. He would not direct the vig to kill RR as his scummate, and his play has been fine.
John didn't take the kill in this case, as he was roleblocked. If you aren't lying, though I expect you are, it's not July either.
John didn't take the kill in this case, as he was roleblocked. If you aren't lying, though I expect you are, it's not July either.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Role cop is possible, but what are the odds that he role copped me? Cop was already directed to look into me or swiss, if they had a tailor equivalent that's a 50% chance of getting it right, which makes more sense?
The timeframe for this makes no sense whatsoever.
1. I didn't crumb to swiss until the start of d2 when I made the tracker crumb.
2. My crumb was well before swords claimed.
3. I had no way of knowing that swiss was a roleblocker. Even if you're assuming a role cop (and swiss was a legitimate target) it would require two actions n1 because scum also had to somehow know about the gunsmith if there wasn't a role that explicitly counters it.
...
Kantrip, you're still town but you need to read the game a LOT more carefully.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Why? Seriously.
Swiss
Smash Lord
Well, I may have misread a 'crumb' which I crumbed back - which he picked up on.
Just chuckin' a spanner out there.
Swiss
Smash Lord
There are too many scenarios emerging. This is why I dislike night action games.
Why were you so convinced Swords was a town investigative role, if you immediately vote him D2?
You're a RB, yet would rather no action and wait for the day to start rather than read and block accordingly?
Swords didn't even post D2 and you call him "mega scum" - list him as your strongest scum read and vote him. You hadn't even re-read.
Why were you so convinced Swords was a town investigative role, if you immediately vote him D2?
This does not line up.
Swiss
Smash Lord
^ Middle quote has reads in another quote, click the link to see his reads.
Kantrip
Kantplay
Thanks adum, you're right. I should just be using Occam's Razor at this point. Occam's Razor says it's an adum/Swiss scumteam, and Swiss's self meta on that scumteam isn't going to change that.
I have read, thank you, and I continue to do so.
I wouldn't put it past you or Swiss or even some other players to direct vigs to kill their scummates, but I'm confident Asdioh didn't. Asdioh is town, his action claim clears John from being the killer. You, adum are claiming July didn't do it. The only solutions:
Felipe sent in the NK.
Swiss sent in the NK.
You are scum.
Pick your poison, my friend. If we're lucky you may even get to pick two.
I have read, thank you, and I continue to do so.
I wouldn't put it past you or Swiss or even some other players to direct vigs to kill their scummates, but I'm confident Asdioh didn't. Asdioh is town, his action claim clears John from being the killer. You, adum are claiming July didn't do it. The only solutions:
Felipe sent in the NK.
Swiss sent in the NK.
You are scum.
Pick your poison, my friend. If we're lucky you may even get to pick two.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
It's not wiform to say that buddying your scummate publically would be utterly and completely stupid. Any way that it's done that gives you an advantage leads an incredibly obvious trail.
Then you'll be forever stuck in mid level play, even the most rudimentary scum player knows to bus a lost cause. Asdioh isn't amazing, but he is solid, and your blinders about him only serve to prevent you from being able to figure out the game as it is.
If you think that's true, read their interactions, explain why it's impossible.
I think rolecop on scum would be horribly OP with partial flips.
-Find role
-kill them
-claim role, guaranteed no CC, gg you win
I guess you didn't read my mind. What I was getting at is that, after looking at the role and reading that paragraph, it makes it really strongly look like Sokr would actually be the serial killer. I'm not saying that's the case, but looking at it setupwise that would be my first impression.
Then again, didn't you point out something Sokr said early on that sounded strangely indy-huntingish?
I agree with this post. Kantrip is making some valid points against Adum, and I think Adum being scum is very possible, but some of his role theories are just making no sense to me.
If I had a guarantee I wouldn't be messing with a cop, then I absolutely would have. That's why I wanted the cop to claim on D2, if you remember that. If you must know, I strongly considered RBing Sword, but ultimately decided not to. And if I had, this:
Would have been embarrassing.
Side note, that quote is one reason I had considered the possibility of there being more than one town roleblocker, even before you had claimed.
\(o_o)/
Are you actually considering the possibility that I'm scum? I had so much town credit that I got the privelege of claiming last. Why would I do something as controversial as claiming town roleblocker, which in itself is a pretty uncommon role, especially after someone else had already claimed it?
Hell, how is it even suspicious at all that I claimed No Action for N1? I might have done the same as, say, a vig, if I had no *really* strong scumspect.
Also, I'm pretty sure Kantrip realizes I'm town for reasons beside "he mentioned vigging RR"
Honestly, the large majority of games I've played haven't had vigs. I just said that on the off chance a hypothetical vig would listen. I think my other interactions with RR are far more important.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13710118&postcount=857 <--notes, where I first mention RR being not-townie
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13715274&postcount=873 <--where I first take a stance on RR being scum.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13718826&postcount=928 <--the votecount. notice i'm the only one voting for RR. adum had voted him for a bit but then the cop gambit made him vote for kantrip.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13715388&postcount=875
You can consider it a bus (which it isn't) but it was nowhere near a lost cause if I was the one bringing attention to him.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13718178#post13718178
Who knows, we might have lynched RR on D2 if Kantrip hadn't distracted everyone with that cop claim :mistyface:
Honestly, the large majority of games I've played haven't had vigs. I just said that on the off chance a hypothetical vig would listen. I think my other interactions with RR are far more important.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13710118&postcount=857 <--notes, where I first mention RR being not-townie
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13715274&postcount=873 <--where I first take a stance on RR being scum.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13718826&postcount=928 <--the votecount. notice i'm the only one voting for RR. adum had voted him for a bit but then the cop gambit made him vote for kantrip.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13715388&postcount=875
You can consider it a bus (which it isn't) but it was nowhere near a lost cause if I was the one bringing attention to him.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13718178#post13718178
Who knows, we might have lynched RR on D2 if Kantrip hadn't distracted everyone with that cop claim :mistyface:
Kantrip
Kantplay
You're right, Asdioh. Mafia rolecop is dumb.
Mafia Jailer
Mafia Tracker
Mafia Redirector
Town ???
Town Gunsmith
Town Roleblocker
Town Census Taker
Town Vig/Doc
Town Vanilla
Town Vanilla
Town Vanilla
Town Vanilla
??? ???
My current thoughts from set-up speculation. The person I think belongs with each role should be fairly obvious. The ??? ??? is a possible Indy or another Vanilla Townie if not.
Now I'll move on from set-up stuff and go back with all the information I have to analyze some things from a play perspective.
Mafia Jailer
Mafia Tracker
Mafia Redirector
Town ???
Town Gunsmith
Town Roleblocker
Town Census Taker
Town Vig/Doc
Town Vanilla
Town Vanilla
Town Vanilla
Town Vanilla
??? ???
My current thoughts from set-up speculation. The person I think belongs with each role should be fairly obvious. The ??? ??? is a possible Indy or another Vanilla Townie if not.
Now I'll move on from set-up stuff and go back with all the information I have to analyze some things from a play perspective.
Sokr
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2011
- Messages
- 202
Ok, adum is my strongest scum read atm followed by swiss, july and john (in that order). A swiss/adum scum team is the most likely that I can see. And swiss, I don't care if you wouldn't slip up like that, I've never seen you play before, I don't know that, and I'm certainly not taking your word for it.
Vote: Adumb
Vote: Adumb
Currently rereading some stuff, paying special attention to RR interactions.
Kantrip and Sokr, what do you think of RR's series of posts starting here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13654634#post13654634
Kantrip and Sokr, what do you think of RR's series of posts starting here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13654634#post13654634
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13657869&postcount=479
I'm
I'm
having a hard time seeing Adum as scum. At least, his early play looks extremely townie.