Pictochat needs to be legalized for our ruleset to have consistency.

Arcansi · Mar 6, 2012

T-block said:
The ghost rises 6-10 seconds after its previous descent. It stays for 2-5 seconds.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=305369

k thx.

T-block said:
Arcansi, please refrain from mentioning how people "should" play on Pictochat. You don't understand the stage enough (I'm not sure even I understand the stage enough) to be making such claims, and I don't have time to correct you =P

I'm not saying like should as in 'in the highest level of play, you would play like this'.

I'm saying, 'in order to remove all randomness, one should be playing like this'.

If this wasn't made clear before I apologize.

T-block · Mar 6, 2012

but the possibility of playing to remove all effects of randomness might not be at all relevant to pictochat's legality

Arcansi · Mar 6, 2012

T-block said:
but the possibility of playing to remove all effects of randomness might not be at all relevant to pictochat's legality

When it is relevant, I bring it up.

Like when we talk about how intrusive the stage is. If your not playing to minimize all intrusiveness (assuming this play still allows you to play rationally, mind you) then you can't say it's too intrusive.

That would be like standing where halberd bomb comes down, not shielding, and saying the hazard is too powerful/fast/random.

T-block · Mar 6, 2012

if both players in a match on wario ware made an agreement to both always fail the minigames, we could easily legalize wario ware, no?

Arcansi · Mar 6, 2012

T-block said:
if both players in a match on wario ware made an agreement to both always fail the minigames, we could easily legalize wario ware, no?

If one player failing the minigame made both players fail, and all minigames did no damage and took 5 seconds of planking to fail, and it only put random obstructions in the way, and was shaped like pictochat otherwise, we could make it legal.

It would also be pictochat.

Actually, assuming failing had no adverse affects/everyone had to always fail, we could.

8Bitman · Mar 6, 2012

I love pictochat! Legalize it!!!! =ddddddddd

BSP · Mar 6, 2012

T-block said:
bingoooo

look, all i want is for people to acknowledge that it's an issue of frequency.\

Ok

It's an issue of frequency

I think most people care about frequency when it comes to determining "too intrusive"

Arcansi · Mar 6, 2012

BSP said:
Ok

It's an issue of frequency

I think most people care about frequency when it comes to determining "too intrusive"

Now, considering that if you plank during the 5 seconds a transformation could occur, the only bad random things that can happen can happen to your opponent, how is it too frequent?

BSP · Mar 6, 2012

Assuming I can get to right ledge every single time a drawing is about to appear, I guess it wouldn't be too frequent. If someones standing still on the stage and their opponent is on the ledge, it would be reasonable to expect the someone to be able to deal with the stage.

The problem is getting to the ledge every time a drawing is about to appear, and drawings are going to be appearing very frequently throughout the match. This means that to avoid all sudden intrusiveness, I need to be near the right ledge at all times.

This is where I'd call the stage too intrusive. It's limiting me and my opponent to the right ledge for the entire match at somewhat regular ~25 second intervals if we want to avoid getting randomly punished.

And this is still assuming you can get to the ledge at all times.

Kink-Link5 · Mar 6, 2012

So a stage with effectively 1/8th the playing area of most other stages should be legal? Well **** if I'd known that I would've made more custom stages with a length of 2 blocks.

#HBC | Joker · Mar 6, 2012

You need at least 4 blocks on a custom stage so there's enough spawnpoints for 4 players. They literally won't let you save it, otherwise....

:yeahboi:

| Big D | · Mar 6, 2012

Legalize Mario Circuit.

Kink-Link5 · Mar 6, 2012

I just use StageStudio.exe.

#HBC | Joker · Mar 7, 2012

teh hax0rz!

Arcansi · Mar 7, 2012

BSP said:
Assuming I can get to right ledge every single time a drawing is about to appear, I guess it wouldn't be too frequent. If someones standing still on the stage and their opponent is on the ledge, it would be reasonable to expect the someone to be able to deal with the stage.

The problem is getting to the ledge every time a drawing is about to appear, and drawings are going to be appearing very frequently throughout the match. This means that to avoid all sudden intrusiveness, I need to be near the right ledge at all times.

This is where I'd call the stage too intrusive. It's limiting me and my opponent to the right ledge for the entire match at somewhat regular ~25 second intervals if we want to avoid getting randomly punished.

And this is still assuming you can get to the ledge at all times.

Here we go. I'm going to play a lot of picto at the next event I go too, if I can, just to see if this actually works. I mean, I could test against cpus but that's obviously faulty, although I might go onto wifi.

People need to start testing this. Like legitimately try to get to the right edge every time a transformation is going to appear, and then plank it, repeat for every transformation.

See if it's actually intrusive.

Kink-Link5 said:
So a stage with effectively 1/8th the playing area of most other stages should be legal? Well **** if I'd known that I would've made more custom stages with a length of 2 blocks.

Size is a CP quality, not a Ban quality.

Temple could literally be what it is, but splayed out in a horizontal fashion (the cave going to nowhere, the island being on the left or right, idk.) and there would be a VERY solid argument to legalize it.

It would probably be TL's best counterpick, too.

BSP · Mar 7, 2012

I see the fact that I'm going out of my way, and focusing less on my opponent, to avoid the stage's randomness as intrusive from the beginning imo. And unlike most other stages, I can't really avoid pictochat's without planking that right ledge.

If I really wanted to, I could avoid most of the randomness of the stage by being on the right. I can't do it forever though, since i'll eventually go over the LGL or just get hit at the danger time. But like I said, I see that as intrusive from the get-go :<

Arcansi · Mar 7, 2012

BSP said:
I see the fact that I'm going out of my way, and focusing less on my opponent, to avoid the stage's randomness as intrusive from the beginning imo. And unlike most other stages, I can't really avoid pictochat's without planking that right ledge.

Until the line transformation comes up, mind you. But yeah.

Also note this is only if your opponent approaches you during this time, at which point planking is perfectly fine because your staying safe too, and making them have to worry about the missle transformation, among others.

BSP said:
If I really wanted to, I could avoid most of the randomness of the stage by being on the right. I can't do it forever though, since i'll eventually go over the LGL or just get hit at the danger time. But like I said, I see that as intrusive from the get-go :<

You don't need to plank all the time though, because it's only considered randomness if it basically spawns on you with no way of you reacting.

WindMajor · Mar 7, 2012

It's not even a case of always planking on the right, it's just a case of being at a distance from your opponent.

#HBC | Joker · Mar 7, 2012

Why would people wanna test it out when it was already legal at one point, and got banned in one of the first updates because they already figured out it was bad? You're welcome to test it out all you want though.

Picto is a dumb stage, get over it. Telling people it's a legit stage because you can just plank every 20-25 seconds in a specific location to avoid the dumb stuff is CLEARLY intrusive. And quit comparing it to YiB, cuz you don't have to plank the right side of the stage every 20 seconds to avoid the ghosts. It's just NOT the same.

You don't even care about pictochat, you're just becoming a strawman to the people who disagree with the URC. It doesn't matter how "right" you think you are on this, cuz just about everyone disagrees with what you're saying, with a small handful of exceptions. You just seem like you're being stubborn at this point.

Arcansi · Mar 7, 2012

PrivateJoker-Brown said:
Why would people wanna test it out when it was already legal at one point, and got banned in one of the first updates because they already figured out it was bad? You're welcome to test it out all you want though.

Because logically, in theory, I'm correct.

That's why.

PrivateJoker-Brown said:
Picto is a dumb stage, get over it. Telling people it's a legit stage because you can just plank every 20-25 seconds in a specific location to avoid the dumb stuff is CLEARLY intrusive. And quit comparing it to YiB, cuz you don't have to plank the right side of the stage every 20 seconds to avoid the ghosts. It's just NOT the same.

You don't always have to plank, you would actually have to plank/avoid for a longer period of time overall to avoid the ghosts on YI:B

PrivateJoker-Brown said:
You don't even care about pictochat, you're just becoming a strawman to the people who disagree with the URC. It doesn't matter how "right" you think you are on this, cuz just about everyone disagrees with what you're saying, with a small handful of exceptions. You just seem like you're being stubborn at this point.

Twinkie seems to agree with me.

You just seem like your uninformed, and angry. You didn't bring anything logical up, and your large paragraphs could quite easily be condensed into a sentence.

#HBC | Joker · Mar 7, 2012

Oh wow you're right, Twinkie does agree with you. I must have imagined the other 12 pages of posts disagreeing with you. Clearly I'm in the minority here.

Arcansi · Mar 7, 2012

PrivateJoker-Brown said:
Oh wow you're right, Twinkie does agree with you. I must have imagined the other 12 pages of posts disagreeing with you. Clearly I'm in the minority here.

1. It's very few people, not a legitmate sample size at all.

2. Argumentum ad hominem, sir.

Kink-Link5 · Mar 7, 2012

I suggest looking up ad hominem instead of applying in random places to refute an argument that doesn't even use it. The fallacy you're looking for is Appeal to the Majority.

And Lylat is a far far more terrible stage than YI. Why not use that as an example instead of arguing against an actually good stage?

Arcansi · Mar 7, 2012

Kink-Link5 said:
I suggest looking up ad hominem instead of applying in random places to refute an argument that doesn't even use it. The fallacy you're looking for is Appeal to the Majority.

I'm stupid. I know what the fallacy is and what it means, I'm just calling it the wrong thing.

I also know what ad hominem actually is. My bad.

Kink-Link5 said:
And Lylat is a far far more terrible stage than YI. Why not use that as an example instead of arguing against an actually good stage?

Lylat is in no way unavoidably random.

T-block · Mar 7, 2012

lylat does have a random aspect to it ^^

Kink-Link5 · Mar 7, 2012

Also, if randomness alone was the deciding factor, the stages we'd have legal are Battlefield, Final Destination, and Rainbow Cruise.

Arcansi · Mar 7, 2012

Kink-Link5 said:
Also, if randomness alone was the deciding factor, the stages we'd have legal are Battlefield, Final Destination, and Rainbow Cruise.

Unavoidable randomness, sir.

As in, you can't avoid the intrusiveness it brings once it starts.

Kink-Link5 · Mar 7, 2012

FD, BF, and RC.

BSP · Mar 7, 2012

Japes too. Klap trap is timed.

Arcansi · Mar 7, 2012

Smashville, Both Pokemon Stadiums, CS, Delfino, Lylat, Brinstar, along with what you said.

You shouldn't misrepresent, klink.

BSP · Mar 7, 2012

The platform's starting position on SV is going to affect you

PS1 and PS2's transformation orders can severely affect the match, and you can't avoid them

Doesn't the last transformation on CS tilt?

Lylat tilts and you can't avoid it

Brinstar's acid is random and you will have to deal with it

Arcansi said:
You don't always have to plank, you would actually have to plank/avoid for a longer period of time overall to avoid the ghosts on YI:B

I disagree. You don't have to radically alter your fighting strategy to avoid YI:B's ghost.

And even if you do, (I know you don't care about consistency, but most people do) it's still less than being close to the right ledge for the entire match on Pictochat.

ぱみゅ · Mar 7, 2012

This whole thread makes me sad... I will try not to say nothing until is really necessary....

Also, Lylat's tilts aren't random, they have a set pattern depending on the background transformation, which is the only actual random thing about it.

Kink-Link5 · Mar 7, 2012

I disincluded japes since it's not on the current legal list.

If we go into that, Temple, Hanenbow, uh... Luigi's Mansion, I can't think of any others off hand, should all be legal so we don't have a double standard with our "Random is bad" rule that apparently exists.

Arcansi · Mar 7, 2012

Kink-Link5 said:
I disincluded japes since it's not on the current legal list.

If we go into that, Temple, Hanenbow, uh... Luigi's Mansion, I can't think of any others off hand, should all be legal so we don't have a double standard with our "Random is bad" rule that apparently exists.

I dom't see the need to respond to you anymore. You fail to grasp basic logical concepts. Perhaps you should go read the BBR's stage descriptions and come back.

Kink-Link5 · Mar 7, 2012

Arcansi said:
I dom't see the need to respond to you anymore. You fail to grasp basic logical concepts. Perhaps you should go read the BBR's stage descriptions and come back.

I appreciate the response, but I would prefer one with a slightly less passive-aggressive tone.

I don't see what the BBR Stage Analysis thread has any relevance to your argument since all it does is site some players reasoning without giving its own consensus on the stages.

#HBC | Joker · Mar 7, 2012

Don't forget that the flying portion of Delfino is 1 of several possible configurations that is determined randomly.

And SV doesn't just have the moving platform's starting point making it random! It akso has the balloon. Ban it now plz.

Brinstar's acid, however, isn't random. I think it always rises in the same pattern, and is timed. I dunno if it's time schedule is very strict though.

T-block · Mar 7, 2012

brinstar has variations in timing. it only follows a very general pattern

Arcansi · Mar 8, 2012

Kink-Link5 said:
I appreciate the response, but I would prefer one with a slightly less passive-aggressive tone.

I don't see what the BBR Stage Analysis thread has any relevance to your argument since all it does is site some players reasoning without giving its own consensus on the stages.

Basically, you've quite obviously ignored all other logical reasons to decide legality on a ruleset, which is bad.

NOTE: Randomness that is unavoidable in such a way that you cannot see it coming and it affects your play immediately.

Stuff like brinstar that has a moving time, delfino where it doesn't affect your play immediately, or ps2 where it has a clear warning time don't count for obvious reasons.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Mar 8, 2012

What T-Block said.

ぱみゅ · Mar 8, 2012

Arcansi, Two words: Wario Ware
I'd recommend you to re-structurate your criteria.

Pictochat needs to be legalized for our ruleset to have consistency.

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