EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

Yeah thats true, I'd go FoD just because I love it anyways... I really dont see how the moving platforms can **** someone up that bad... Its not like they zip around the stage at mach speeds.

I think one reason Falcon hates FoD is cuz the platforms mess up tech chases. Still, this is one of Samus's worst MUs, and I'm all for saying that it's her absolute worst along with Sheik.

About the MU, I don't think taking to the air a lot is such a good idea. I remember HugS posting once that one thing Samuses must remember in this matchup is that Samus rules the ground while Falcon rules the air. Falcon's uair basically beats out all of our aerial options, even nair. That being said, I'm sure a nair here and there is good for stuffing an approach, but it should be done with extreme moderation. Samus should make sure to space ftilts and utilts, much like she would do in any MU. Falcon is no different from most chars in that he can't really punish ftilt or utilt if they hit his shield. Ftilt is usually nice cuz it comes out faster and can stuff an approach, but utilt combos or sends them offstage, so that's nice too.

One reason I really hate this MU is that Samus can't really CC Falcon's attacks like she can for other char's attacks. Falcon's gentleman, nair, stomp, knee, and obviously grab, are all pretty safe on crouching Samuses. That being said, his Raptor Dash is still very CCable. Also, I believe dsmash and dtilt come out at the same time, but dsmash has less lag and possibly pokes more. In that case, dtilt may combo but dsmash is 'safer'. Also, dsmash sends them out facing backwards, so they can't use their little Falcon Kick trick to try to recover. Do not screw up edgeguards on this char. Utilt usually does the trick, dsmash can stage spike sometimes, and walk-off nair usually *****. However, always be ready for a tech from that Falcon who knows the deal about his recovery.

CCing knees can also lead to CF grabbing or knee'ing you again.

Rat: I think I've learned enough about this matchup to do a writeup.

I've focused almost solely on this matchup for the past 1.5 years, and I think I've started to understand it, thanks to some help from some pretty good Falcons.

The matchup is very deep and requires some animated gifs to illustrate what I'm talking about.

I think I finally understand why the Samuses who think it's a 50:50 matchup think it is. I think it's 55:45 in Falcon's favor, but I definitely don't think it's a terrible matchup.

However, I think I know why a lot of Samuses, especially you in particular, Rat, may have trouble with this matchup.


First, I want to talk about the reasons why Falcon Samus is hard.

1. Falcon dashdance

This is literally Falcon's greatest move against us. It isn't nair, it isn't uair, it isn't stomp, it isn't knee. It's the dashdance that makes Falcon hard. The difficulty of playing a good Falcon is that you never know when they're going to do something, and what they're going to do. Their dashdance, combined with Falcon's short hop, full hop, and and overall aerial coverage means that you're always within range of something. Normally, Samuses are comfortable with staying out of an enemy character's range, but against Falcon, there's no such thing. Already, we feel uneasy, uncomfortable because he can always hit us.

I suppose it's really just his aerial mobility in general. It feels really stifling to play a good Falcon because they lock you down with all their options.

2. Nair

Normally, we wouldn't care about these things, because we could just crouch cancel Falcon's aerial approach and punish with a downsmash. However, if he hits with a nair, where a hit occurs just before touching the ground, he can lcancel and shield before our dsmash will hit. The dsmash's hitlag results in Falcon able to get a free sh knee even if we buffer shield.

3. Uair

If we ever get caught by this, with the wrong DI, we're going to take a lot more damage, most likely killing us in the worst case scenario. This aerial has insane priority in the forward and upward direction, and combos into itself.

4. Grabs

Downthrow is very difficult to DI, usually resulting in a free knee. It's usually percent dependent, and the options out of throw are limited.



Alright, I'll add to this post later, gotta get back to work for now.

i agree with bubbaking. you should stay grounded, and if you do cc, dsmash/dtilt is a good choice into comboing.
you don't wanna stay in the air cuz falcon will want to uair u across the stage/platforms and try to hit a knee.
and up tilt will always work if u know when to use it

Every time I read your username, I think of the song Im Tasty by Pink Dollaz. This is horrible.

rrrrrooooooooooooooooooooffffffffffffffllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
those lyrics hahaah

Hey guys, I'm leaving the community for a while for school/work so I wanted to leave you guys with some stuff I know about samus and how I think her meta game works. This is nothing all to serious, but it's just something Ive come to understand about our character and how she works. By the way, I'm in class writing this on my iphone during a lecture. So yes, it'll look ugly as ****.

THE SAMUS: She's just tricky, thats pretty much it. But she has some great pluses. She's fast, well ranged, and not to weak. All of these qualities have to be used to her advantage as hard as possible. Her recovery is pretty fantastic in terms of livin and getting back to the ledge(getting to the ledge is far more important than getting to the stage for samus). She has plenty of options for recovery and it's a big thing to utilize each option as the situation arises.

Samus has such a unique defense because it sucks and it's a life saver. This comes straight from personal opinion and a **** ton of experience. Her upB is her main way out of getting pressured by almost anyone. But what's it's main use? It takes you from shielding in a bad spot with your opponent all over your *** to being somewhere else safe and sound(results may vary). The ubB resets the position you and your opponent were in if it hits. But what happens when it misses. Your now helpless, awaiting to get that *** hit by whatever the other player can think of. This problem became more common the better players got around me. My answer to this problem was simple, don't upB. If there already spacing your shield, then your almost age to back up as long as you have stage to do it. You can bait them into thinking you'll move back and hit them with whatever, but it's just another option I added to my game.
Wavedash back out of shield>upB?? Maybe sometimes

Combos - yes, she's got them. Learn how to do it. On fast fallers, this isn't uncommon. I can't stress enough how important it is to kill and fast faller you touch when you can, since they can *** you up horribly quick. But what about floaties? They can't really be hit more then two or three before they fly away. So what do you do? Don't get touched. It becomes a touchy feely game where samus has a great move set for doing this. Tilts and the occasional nair is fine for handling the floatiest of floaties. Up angled tilts are your best friend for this. Why not do it?

Did you know? Samus's up angled ftilt beats out ganon's fair cleanly. Just hit him when you see him jumping toward you.

The power of her angled tilts. Omfg there so good when used in the right spots. Ever see someone angleing their shield? I have, so I tilted in the spot that wasn't covered. She has great shield stabbing moves(almost anythig angled) along with awkward shield pressure. So getting your opponent to shield is almost a garantteed hit. Oh and when you do, take stage and don't give it back. Taking stage means you have more room to do whatever an the other player can't move back, WHICH MAKES ANYTHING EASIER TO HIT.

Let's say your on the short hand stick of this and your the one being pressured. Don't shield a hit unless you have to because then you'll definitely get hit with something stupid. Bob and weave kids. Run around and make that annoying fox **** up his spacing. Samus is fast on the ground when your doing it right, so you can almost always pivot and do something in return. Just don't stay still.

That's about all I have off the top of my head. Hope anyone who reads this enjoys my random, incoherent thoughts on samus

P.s. Don't use smash attacks, ever

Darrell You will be missed. It was nice meeting you at Apex, take a break from school and work and attend Impulse

Which is more useful to bait people with Samus; dash-dancing or walk WD back/forward?

The former is more modern, and something I prefer. The latter is more traditional, and it's more commonly seen.

It's actually a big part of the Falcon matchup, imo.

MonkUnit said:

Which is more useful to bait people with Samus; dash-dancing or walk WD back/forward?

Click to expand...

Wd back is much easier but dash dancing is probably more effective and less routine. Why not mix one with the other?

@Violence:
I think you're right with the Dashdance being the problem.

I never feel safe again falcon. Like only when he's off the stage or dead can I catch a breath.

If the falcon doesn't jump out and try to kill you. Like only plays the neutral game and any free punishes I think he wins the match-up. If he jumps out, well then he's screwed.

@Darrell
Sad to see you leave for a bit. Love watchin your samus pressure.

Rat: This is what came to mind predominantly because your Samus is very static. Your typical movement pattern is a mixup of walks, and wavedash back, with a wavedash forward tilt thrown in, and once you get your hit confirm, it's then that you begin your punish. This basic pattern is very strong, but it's not really going to work on a Falcon that concentrates on outspacing you, because he's more mobile and can come in at will. I would really focus on more dynamic movement. If you watch Duck vs Juggleguy at the recent Sweet, Duck normally plays this matchup very statically as well. Juggleguy looks like he's learned the tools to beat it. He dash dances outside of Duck's range, and gets in with shield-safe and crouch cancel safe moves. His recovery has also improved, hitting smash DI wall techs on the utilts to beat Duck's utilt spacing, along either varied height, falling speed, and sweet spot distance mixups. I don't think Juggleguy is a better player than Duck(though by no means is he a bad Falcon), but he definitely played this matchup better than Duck did, imo.

Duck's style is an effective way of beating space animals, because with his static, wavedash oriented, feet planted way of playing, he is in a good position to crouch cancel dsmash or use a tilt to outspace a space animal's approach. He can also react out of shield very easily. However, vs Falcon's movement options and aerial options, I think it leaves something to be desired.



So here's what I think Samuses have to do differently in the matchup:

DASH DANCE MORE. At any point in time, if you aren't moving, your options for where you're going to be are much more limited. A static Samus is not going to be as good a Samus for beating Falcon as a mobile Samus is. Dash dancing also unlocks dash attacks, which are sometimes a good anti air against some of Falcon's approach tactics.

Here are some tips on spacing: Falcons, in my experience, tend to space things in bites. I think I started realizing this when S2J gave me a hint about the matchup by mentioning Hugo spacing. "Yeah, Plup just uses Hugo spacing but he utilizes more options." This got me thinking because I was assured that there wasn't really a way for Samus to beat Falcon's spacing. Like everyone else, I tried all of Samus's defensive options, and nothing seemed to work.

It soon dawned on me: Falcons space in segments. It seems very intuitive, if a Falcon is standing still, to space ourselves at sh nair distance, so that if we actually see it, we can wavedash back and punish. Spacing against his dash dance is no different. What I try to do is to visualize the invisible arcs of his dashing sh nair from each end of his dash dance, and move myself with dash dancing or wavedashing such that if he nairs me from one side, I can wavedash back, and if he nairs from the other side, I can wavedash forward underneath it. Basically, I try to move myself such that he does not have a favorably spaced approach on me.

This is really the basis of the Samus Falcon matchup, imo. It's not letting Falcon get that well spaced nair on you.

That's all well and good and it gets me good hits, but of course nobody has perfect spacing, and he's going to get you with that nair. What do?

STOP DSMASHING. Only cc Dsmash if you are 110% sure you are going to hit him. Good Falcons will lcancel into shield, and dsmashing shield means a free knee to the face into combo town.

CC Dtilt is much safer and if you hit, you can combo with uair or fair to build damage, or nair/bair to push him off stage. If he shields, he can't knee you before you buffer shield. If he knees you on shield, he then has a gentleman or grab mixup. I've found that the best solution I have for this mixup is to attempt a wavedash back out of shield. If he tries to grab, he misses and you get a free dsmash. If he gentleman's you, you buffer cc and dsmash. If he tries a different option, your wavedash back should put you into a decent defensive position to deal with other things, like sh aerials, raptor boost, etc.

Shielding is probably next best, but please be careful with Up B out of shield. It is high risk low reward against Falcon, and if you're not sure it's going to hit, please wavedash out, or nair/uair out of shield if you think he's jumping.

Really though, sitting in shield is not something you want to be doing vs Falcon, I would recommend doing it sparingly. The more you actively move and space yourself, the less and less you'll have to shield.

If you want to take one thing away from this post, it would be to please please just at all costs try not to let Falcon get that perfectly spaced nair on you. The illusion of how stifling that nair is is what makes the matchup feel hopeless, imo. The nair can be avoided with active spacing, similar to how I think the Puff matchup should be played: by actively moving and trying to make the opponent's main spacing move(in Puff's case, bair), awkward at different distances, so they don't get the perfect spacing on you.

I think this mostly covers defense. My next post will be on offensive options: stuffing approaches, aggressive baiting, shield pressures, and edgeguarding.




Darrell, I think I'ma use your color and tag this weekend if I get on video. Hope I don't embarass you.

Damn dude, awesome post.

It hurts a bit because I've been trying to work on my grease. =D

To be clear on the movement stuff - are you saying like to move for movement's sake? Cause I tend to think in attack chunks. I never thought about moving around to just like be at a different spot.

With the DD arc spacing, I think I can see what you are looking for and what this solves. It's like a way to beat multiple approaches without shielding or throwing out counter pokes.

Look forward to next post =D.

Duuuuuude, that game 1 was tiiiiiiiiiight...

Oh right, I forgot about combo DI. I'll get to that later.

Don't think of it as moving for movement's sake, think of it like you're disrupting your opponent's perception of where you are. Dash dancing is, fundamentally, this. By not knowing where you are, your opponent can't cover all your options with one action(unless it's a laser or a needle or something).

We feel uneasy whenever we're onstage vs Falcon because we never know when he's going to come in, but we know we can't deal with it if his nair is properly spaced. The most direct way of dealing with this is to simply make it so that his nair is not properly spaced. That's the main goal of the dash dance here.

Really nice writeup Violence. I'm more of the defensively-styled Samus which is probably why I have a harder time vs Falcon than any other matchup. The only matchup I really play aggressively is Marth and Falco, because I learned to never give them momentum... EVER. With Falcon it's much harder because he can turtle and rushdown at will and punish pretty much all of your *good* standard attacks if you misread.

Not to mention he's heavy so you can't just safely tilt him to death like other characters.

BTW, do you know of any way to avoid getting grabbed if a Falcon wall techs your U-Tilt then does his UP+B? It's quite annoying and puts you in the worst position. (the air!)

I'm definitely going to cover that in the edgeguarding section of my writeup. Stay tuned!

Thanks for the feedback, guys, I hope this advice helps with the matchup.

EDIT: I'm going to Manifest this weekend, I'll update with more Falcon stuffs afterward. I'll get to play Scar and Johnny, most likely, so I can update with some more info.

violence, go show everyone your combo vi-er.....

so my friend is at manifest now. if you want to play a samus, you could try finding him...

Good luck, violence

-Philip Coast Philip- said:

violence, go show everyone your combo vi-er.....

so my friend is at manifest now. if you want to play a samus, you could try finding him...

Click to expand...

yeah i met wes, super nice guy! Though he says his samus isn't his best character anymore though. We played some samus dittos and he still has some swag.

edit: westcoastwes, to clarify

I also met WestCoastWes, awesome guy.

Shoutouts to the other Samuses I got to meet at the tournament.........

I think it was just Wes...


We're so cold and lonely up here...



Andy let's get better. We have the tools, we just need to put in the work and we'll be able to start wrecking people with filthy spacing and technical(I like how this is a noun in the Northwest).

Pink Samus is Legit.

ThePrime said:

yeah i met wes, super nice guy! Though he says his samus isn't his best character anymore though. We played some samus dittos and he still has some swag.

edit: westcoastwes, to clarify

Click to expand...

yeah! he told me... you did some pretty good work on him, haha. yeah he said it would have been fun to play you more.

how do you feel about your placing, btw? i mean, i'd say it's cool.. unless you thought you could get higher. i forget who was in your pool. i was watching the livestream for awhile on the first day, ah, didn't see you at all. oh well, hah. dang.

Violence said:

17: ThePrime My brother in Samus, we need to get better and work on our weaknesses. Ours is the only region that doesn't have a scary Samus. Let's fill that gap.

Click to expand...

...

Violence said:

33: Violence lolgetraped

Click to expand...

ah. right.
lol...
edit: what i mean to say is, i think andy's good...

(and hey if you want to play different people but not travel as far as seattle, heh, there's some people at wwu now who'd be willing to play.)

I had to play Jiggs round 1, which is my worst matchup. I practiced with Sheridan all morning to try and learn the matchup on the fly, but it wasn't enough. I lost 3-0 taking Jiggs to last stock.

Round 2 I played Sheridan. Talk about worst case scenarios. I had practiced for fast fallers and got two Puffs.

I do agree that Andy's good, as well as quite better than I am, but what I mean is that Norcal has Darrell, Socal has Hugo(and Hugo), Midwest has Duck(and Rat), Atlsouth has Plup(and I see you, Pi, spaceballs), and Europe also has awesome Samuses.

These are all Samuses that can take top 5 regionally, but neither Andy nor I have the ability to do that currently. I don't wanna take away from how good he is or his current achievements, I'm just saying, I want us to be good at least to the point where we're scary to run into during bracket, to where we can also take top 5 slots.

I'm probably going to main Samus again. Or at least juggle her along with Sheik.

Geist, I can't wait for you to be in Ontario again. Lemon squares.

lol violence... (just saw you post this in the other thread) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWoq2hz0y0E (first round, jv4)
kill at the end, lol...
(oh man... gotta stay on the ground a lot more against peach (sorry, quick tip). her aerials game dominates, unless you're missile storming.)

ah man, jiggs sucks. it's just a terrible matchup in general. lame...

("i see you?" is that a samus player? lol)

Ah I see. True that. (Yeah Andy, step it up...!)

Who do we have here... maybe not that much? we got that one technical guy, and his buddies... dat peach player... see, no biggie!

I made a proper hitbox thread for samus. It actually has the images this time instead of just a download link. >_>

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=320253

Rat are you going to sg this weekend?

Yhii said:

I'm probably going to main Samus again. Or at least juggle her along with Sheik.

Geist, I can't wait for you to be in Ontario again. Lemon squares.

Click to expand...

Does that mean I have to remake your sig

Geist said:

Does that mean I have to remake your sig

Click to expand...

It's entirely up to you.

I never noticed her dtilt has a small punch at the end.

...

holy ****

that completely changes the way i saw that move

can't unsee

*explosion*
*bro fist*

imagine if that punch had a hitbox. you could do things like get a jab reset if you miss hitting with the explosion

Did you re-expload after the bro fist?

MonkUnit said:

imagine if that punch had a hitbox. you could do things like get a jab reset if you miss hitting with the explosion

Click to expand...

It would perfect for interrupting people who WDOOS after the first hit.

Any of you going to Nyte this weekend?

Hey, are any of you guys going to Anime Boston this weekend? I hope there's a Melee tourney...