Big secret muscles

according to reflex, ivysaur beats dk +2....

Ryker told me the same thing, haha. Nair + Bullet Seed?

Ruinn said:

seriously guys. im having a very hard time with two of the following mu's.

Toon Link : runs away all match and just bombs, boomerangs, zair's, or arrows you. then once you rack up enough damage you're eating one of his aerials. How do I get by this?

Rob: Pretty similar. If you're far away from him, expect a laser or a gyro,, if you're decently close to him but out of dsmash reach, expect a gyro, and if you're beside him, prepare for spotdodge dsmash, or ftilt. How do I get by this?

Click to expand...

Well, I'm not super experienced in the TL MU, and I've never played any high level TL players. The one's I play often are decent players on my regions standards.
I still do have some tips for you. Unless you're not approaching, charge your punch. You obviously have to be aggressive in this MU (although don't just blindly jump in). Super armor frames in DK punch can really help in this MU. Down-B is not particulary good in this MU unless it's for tech chasing. Grounded up-B on the other hand has uses due to armor frames. Approaching with fullhop/double jump Bair is pretty useless. I'd rather use d-tilt/f-tilt instead.
Obviously there is no right way to get through his projectiles. (just don't jump/approach above them) You have to play friendlies in order to improve. You could set these kinds of goals for yourself when playing friendlies. Such could be, trying to powershield his projectiles. I play Wario aswell, and I sometimes set for myself a goal not to get grabbed. When you wan't to accomplish something in this way, you will try harder and improvement will come faster.
Here's something you should also try: If TL is recovering with his Up-B and you're at the ledge, don't get up. Instead, do a ledgedrop bair (unless you are SURE that your invincibility frames can outlast his Up-B and therefore edgehog him. The timing of spin attack's last hit can be tricky). Giving him the ledge is like giving him a second chance to win. When you drop and bair, hold the control stick to the side away from the ledge. If you hold down and bair you will fastfall.

Pretty much the same applies for Robs projectiles. Powershield his laser which you can easily react to. If a Gyro is infront of you, don't roll or spotdodge through it. Rob players easily expect this. If you get a hold of it I would recommend you to throw it up instead of throwing it back at him. The Gyro takes ages to fall back down. Rob hates it when he can't use his Gyro. You could also try stuff like Z-dropping the Gyro from above (if he shields) and landing with Bair or even a side-B. Aerial Side-B in general is really good against Robs terrible shield.

Robs Spotdodge to D-Smash can annoy a lot of players. The simple trick to beating it has to do with what you already said "prepare for a spotdodge d-smash". Obviously if you're expecting it, you shouldn't go into the range where he can use it. If you know that your opponent has a habit of spotdodging and using a D-smash right afterwards, then my best advice for you is to wait for the spotdodge and time your grab so that DK grabs when Robs dodge has already finished and he suffers from ending lag. This is actually much easier than it sounds. Practicing to punish spotdodges on reaction is really useful as well. Lots of players have it as a habit to spotdodge once you are close up. Abuse these habits. If you shield his d-smash you can always punish him with a bair after the D-smash has finished. You might even be able to use your own D-Smash on him if you buffer it correctly after shielding his D-smash. I am not sure about the later one though.

Neon! said:

reflex's ivysaur beats dk +2....

Click to expand...

Fixed.

ivysaur does beat dk +2

It's probably one of the only mu's Ivy wins

how does ivysaur beat him? I've never really played an ivysaur and now I actually want to be prepared rofl. is it just the bullet seed setups and stuff? seems like we could gimp him really easily.

Taste said:

Guys, theres a video of some of the best dks in a ffa I think on pictochat. near the end they all get on the springs and start dairing each other in sync to epic music! please link me if you know the one!

Click to expand...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9gYGZyhJsQ
Not really some of the best DKs, just good players playing DK.

Neon! said:

according to reflex, ivysaur beats dk +2....

Click to expand...

Nah we still win but it's only +1.

Attila the Hun said:

Ryker told me the same thing, haha. Nair + Bullet Seed?

Click to expand...

Nah nair is negligible and if you're ready for it Bullet Seed isn't a big deal. Ivy b-air is a pretty good move but it only does so much.

I'm just going to leave this here in case you guys want to contribute.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228591

btw Will
your AIB avi is to good xD

GOofyGV said:

btw Will
your AIB avi is to good xD

Click to expand...

LOL I know it's amazing. Thanks for reminding me. I'm about to make that my smashboards avi as well =D

Edit: Btw Ivysaur does not beat DK +2 lol! The sad truth is that once cornered, Ivysaur is easily gimped. I'm sure Reflex is amazing vs DK, but likewise, I have forced every Ivysaur to switch almost immediately after they realize how stupid the matchup is.

Let's go through a list of Ivysaur's supposed advantages that make this a "bad matchup" for DK.


Countering Ivy's Matchup Advantages:


1) Ivy's Advantage: Bullet seed.

- Accumulates massive damage when it connects. Makes getting too close to Ivy very scary. Is one of the best reasons I can see why PT mains would find this a favorable matchup due to DK's excessively large frame.

DK's Countermeasure: Anticipation/Preventative action.

- If you know they're going to punish a laggy situation with bullet seed, you can actually SDI the first hit away to avoid further damage (this is very difficult however and requires a high level of anticipation).

-Also, do not approach Ivysaur from directly above! Commit to staying grounded to avoid a landing/air dodge being caught by an anti-air bullet seed.


2) Ivy's Advantage: N-air.

- This move pressures the hell out of DK and once they start connecting, it's difficult to escape taking multiple n-airs. Also, a specific hitbox of the back of n-air can actually spike you x_x

DK's Countermeasure: Proper spacing.

- DK should never be any closer than the maximum range of a d-tilt vs a grounded Ivysaur so as to avoid both bullet seed spacing as well as the threat of short hop n-air pressure.


3) Ivy's Advantage: B-air.

- Great range. Pretty sure this move auto cancels and can be safely spaced even if Ivy jumps forward, and then retreats afterward (similiar to Wario's n-air/d-air spacing)

DK's countermeasure: Pivot foxtrot/ Powershield.

-Ivy's b-air spacing is very good, but it's not impossible to break through. Especially with pivot fox trotting into power shield -> grab, down-b spacing, and grounded up-b SA frames.


4) Ivy's Advantage: Razor leaf.

- A great zoning tool and a slow moving projectile whose direction can be partially influenced either upward or downward. It maintains Ivy's zoning and effectively keeps DK out on the ground, forcing him to approach creatively.

DK's Countermeasure: Angled F-tilt.

- DK's f-tilt can be angled either up or down to clank and eliminate any threat of damage.


5) Ivy's Advantage: Grab range.

- Ivy's tether grab provides a great OoS option vs DK's b-airs on shield, spaced f-tilts on shield, and allows for a pivot grab that is a safer means of punishing air dodge landings.

DK's Countermeasure: Mix it up.

- If you consistently air dodge to land vs Ivysaur, you WILL get bullet seeded/grabbed/or worse (up smashed lol). Mix in falling aerial headbutt, and retreated n-air along more often than air dodge landings. Read which options Ivysaur is spaced and ready for, and choose accordingly. Air dodging every time is only going to result in you taking damage, you may as well attempt an aggressive landing option.


Key to the Matchup!:

These are the immediate advantages that come to mind, but bear this in mind as well-- DK need only corner Ivysaur once, land one grab, drop-zone cargo d-throw, and tap with the weak hits of up-b to steal the double jump and ensure a gimp at virtually any percent.

Once you get past Ivy's razor leaf by clashing with tilts/power shielding, and rush in to shield grab at the opportune moment, Ivysaur is not getting past the ledge drop up-b and b-air wall.

Will goes ham on mu's. xD

I found that actually in general for that match-up if we play slow we win in the long run. But thanks a lot for the explanation of your opinion. I don't know why people ever thought that was right.

fight reflexs ivy and ud understand how hard the matchup actually is for DK.

holy **** that avi looks into your soul and slowly undresses, scarring your eyes and making you projectile vomit at the sight of broccoli for the unforeseeable future.

Will's new nickname: "Eye broccoli" its the opposite of eye candy.

Generally, if a MU boils down to "If I do this, you **** me, but if you do this, I **** you," then it's an even one.

Will's great writeup gives me the impression that the MU can only be +1 for either side at best, and most likely just plain even.

Btw, hai again DK boards. I used to be a DK main, then I switched to being a Bowser main, and now I'm in a state of total "main limbo."

Regardless of who I main, though, I always enjoy playing DK.

going from dk to bowser

anyway man wassup? good to see new people around here in the dk boards. :D

Ruinn could you please change your color for you letters :$
I really need to put my had on my screen to read it.

Edit:
it's probably me who is dumb
but yeah I can't read it atm.

Nima what are you doing on the DK boards? come to glimpse at the greatness of this board that you once held?
only slightly worse than bowser, this board is.

better? sorry about previous colour. ;-;

Bowser's my low tier main, he's such a champ. :D

Ruinn said:

going from dk to bowser

anyway man wassup? good to see new people around here in the dk boards. :D

Click to expand...

It's good to be here again, dude. I used to post here sometimes a few years back when the game was young, but that was so long ago that I basically am new.

Attila the Hun said:

Bowser's my low tier main, he's such a champ. :D

Click to expand...

Bowser is awesome, and it always feels good to run wild with him in low tier tourneys, as super rare as they are in my state.

waldorf2007 said:

Nima what are you doing on the DK boards? come to glimpse at the greatness of this board that you once held?
only slightly worse than bowser, this board is.

Click to expand...

I might be bringing him out for tourneys again, Scott, so if do, I'll want to hit you guys up for tips and critique. It's been a while since I last entered the jungle, but I think I'll be in good hands.

zyth said:

fight reflexs ivy and ud understand how hard the matchup actually is for DK.

Click to expand...

I have. Just because the entirety of Michigan got their DKs (and none of you really play this character so wtf) whooped doesn't mean anything about the match-up. It is not that hard, you just can't be mindless against Ivy.

Sold2 said:

I have. Just because the entirety of Michigan got their DKs (and none of you really play this character so wtf) whooped doesn't mean anything about the match-up. It is not that hard, you just can't be mindless against Ivy.

Click to expand...

Im the only one in MI who plays DK. and when did u play reflexes Ivy last?

you..main...olimar.

EVERYBODY HERE HATES OLIMAR SO MUCH LEAVE THESE BOARDS NOW!
/caps

but you also use dk so you can stay

lol. I've been playin DK more than Olimar for a while now, just havent changed the button thing. DK is more fun than Oli, and gets less hate. he just has harder MUs

oh ok. much better ;D

i'm still suspicious...could he be a secret ******* sneaking into our boards and pretending to be one of us? ...only to unmask as the terribly annoying olimar main he is and 3 stock us?
I guess....we should be welcoming....
leave me out of this, olimar brings up memories I'd rather not relive.

waldorf2007 said:

i'm still suspicious...could he be a secret ******* sneaking into our boards and pretending to be one of us? ...only to unmask as the terribly annoying olimar main he is and 3 stock us?
I guess....we should be welcoming....
leave me out of this, olimar brings up memories I'd rather not relive.

Click to expand...

You could be right. Olimar has ***** me in ways no other characters could. *shiver*

DKs i need help. How do I deal with pit? at the last tournament i was at, I got lamed out by a pit doing off edge arrows for 4 minutes straight. how do I deal with that ****.
also whenever I get hit away, I'm in this awkward position. Pit is perfectly placing arrows right on my *** while I'm trying to recover, and I don't have time to punch turnaround and bair the arrows. In addition, if I airdodge, I'll be easy to shield and even be edgehogged! or depending on the height I'll be too low to even recover at all. how do you guys get around this?
I usually end up going wario against pit but the one I played's favorite matchup was wario so I stuck with DK and still got lamed.

if he tries to shoot you from the ledge spike him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZQsprWnsfM&feature=player_detailpage#t=254s

1. I don't see the pit in that video
2. the character you did it on jumped right off the ledge. if pit was that stupid I'd get lots of spikes.
usually I can safely jump off and get a bair off, at least CANCELLING pit's arrow, but the thing is it's extremely easy to see me coming. pit's uair trades and then hits through DK's bair if spaced right. The pit I was playing fell off the edge a good distance, arrow'd, then jumped back. I must have jumped off at him 20 or 30 times and each time he either uair'd me or kept falling and up B'd to the other edge. Against most pits the spike over top would work alright, but this pit had DK exp, he knew how to do that **** safely.

Hey guys, I'm starting to get back into Brawl. I use to be real active on these boards around '10 summer. I guess I'll do that introduce yourself.

Real Name?: Sean Cope
How Did You Come Up With Your Gamer Tag?: Off of a youtube video. I was like 11 and it sounded awesome so I just used it. (pronounced like Ha-no-raw-she) If you address me you can just call me Hino.
Your Age: 17
Where You're From: Pennsylvania
A Picture Of Yourself: http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m30k6b3VLN1rucxflo1_500.jpg
Favorite Video Games: Super Smash Bros, Pokes, CoD, Legend of Zelda
Why Do You Main Your Character in Brawl? Do you attend Tournaments?: Donkey Kong and I'm going to start too.
Interesting Things About Yourself: Love video editing, play a ton of sports, huge NBA fan

waldorf one of the main guys i face uses pit and does this to me. if you get close, they'll drop down and uair, and when you're away, arrows. the key is to get in close, within dsmash range of the ledge, sheild the entire uair (sometimes they do 2 so be prepared), make sure you dont get sheild poked, and once they finish their uair, it's when you dsmash them, they usually try and go back for the ledge after that, so thats your time to take advantage. if they dont go back to the ledge well then they're dumb and you can just bair them. gg for them lol.

waldorf2007 said:

1. I don't see the pit in that video
2. the character you did it on jumped right off the ledge. if pit was that stupid I'd get lots of spikes.
usually I can safely jump off and get a bair off, at least CANCELLING pit's arrow, but the thing is it's extremely easy to see me coming. pit's uair trades and then hits through DK's bair if spaced right. The pit I was playing fell off the edge a good distance, arrow'd, then jumped back. I must have jumped off at him 20 or 30 times and each time he either uair'd me or kept falling and up B'd to the other edge. Against most pits the spike over top would work alright, but this pit had DK exp, he knew how to do that **** safely.

Click to expand...

from what im hearin it soundds like hes tryin to take advantage of the ivinc. frames from comin off the ledge early to uair. the only thing i could think of besides spiking, is to be ready to run off and bair before he even starts his uair. that way if u read him right he tries to uaair but ull be low enough that it doesnt hit u and he gets spiked. granted it wont be the initial hit of DKs bair if you do this tho.

and that vid was just to show with right reads u can spike as soon as they try to jump

So iunno how many people will care, but I'm gonna be at Phoenix 7, which is starting at 12 p.m. British Columbia time (Pacific?), and people should watch the stream and hope I'm on there.

Okay guys, I read some DK threads and I still have not found the answer, maybe I just am dumb and couldn't see it in front of my face:

How do I get the lag free landing on Up-b?

I need to know.

so like. say you're on sv. and you upb laglessly onto the platform? is that what you're asking?

Yeah Ruinn, I'm pretty sure that's what he means. All you have to do to laglessly land with up-b is land close enough to the ground. Just go and practice the spacing on it, it becomes natural after a while.

If he means from the ledge, you drop back off the ledge, then upB, and move the joystick diagonal down towards the stage. DK grinds against the stage and ends up landing laglessly on the stage.