Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

im curious too

I'm curious as to why this character is so damn hard to play.

I think I'm being misunderstood. I don't delay the grab after the dash attack. I just fox trot which let's you do the boost grab late. This is Not possible with a normal dash

Im terrible with dash dancing as sheik... I really gotta work on that for tech chasing...

joejoe22802 said:

Its just an option. and a falco might not do one of those options if you just walk

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you walk in reaction to the way he di's your down throw. falco doesnt/cant react to you walking to cover his DI.

your option is not needed. just tech chase properly

joejoe22802 said:

I think I'm being misunderstood. I don't delay the grab after the dash attack. I just fox trot which let's you do the boost grab late. This is Not possible with a normal dash

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i do this alot actually, as a general bait even

My post wasn't in reference to you I was just curious on frame data

hey tope, i saw your old vids against kels. you put a hurt on his falco but his fox gave you some trouble. how'd you feel about the matches?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oydGo4C1z4k

Does anyone want a long-winded explanation to f-smashing with sheik?
Me: Tafokints
Kevin: Dr. Peepee

Tafo:
fsmash into dash attack
at mid %
or fsmash
they land
and tech roll away
cuz i'm chasing them
and then i get a grab
it also kills momentum
cuz of the psychological aspects of getting hit by sheik's fsmash
"why did i get hit by this, it's so stupid?"
11:21 AM Kevin: its cause you couldve just grabbed and mindgamed me anyway usually and im like well i should gtfo now
and then i get hit by that shenanigan
im like WHY
me: yea
do it to a spacey
and you control them for life
Kevin: lmao
me: especially those technical foxes
Kevin: so true
yo they freeze up
me: since they get all cautious
Kevin: when the techno isnt playing
LOL
me: LOl
11:22 AM and you condition them to hold shield longer
since they wait for the two hits of fsmash
and then i go for the grab
hehehehe
i'm so evil
cuz if you keep doing fair, fair fair
then they're conditioned to jump out
between fair and tilt
or the two fairs
but do a fsmash
repeatedly
and they'll get hit
if they want to jump out instictively after the 1st hit
so if they keep getting hit
then they'll hold shield for longer
11:23 AM Kevin: lmfao
me: that's my reasoning for it
Kevin: its solid
me: if anyone wants to psychoanalyze my fsmashes
that's my honest reason for doing it
it gives me access to grabs later in the match
11:24 AM Kevin: i figured it was like that and i knew it was good which is why i wasnt mad at you doing it so much as you using fsmash instead of another move i felt you combo better with but even then it didnt matter sheiks fsmash combos fairly well lol
11:25 AM me: yea
there are few DIs that obliterate comboability
but most are conditioned to DI either heavy in
or heavy ou
t
which i have options for
i dont do fsmash against certain characters
puff
good falcos
since they're OOS shield game
is too good
i can do it on fox
since it's still unorthodox
11:26 AM and if foxes catches on
the max i take is 5%
from shine
since most can't consistently do shine turnaround grab
Kevin: his shine oos unless its eggm or sw on a good day wont get you hurt much
me: right
Kevin: yeah thats solid
me: SFAT too
Kevin: anything unorthodox is always good to introduce
me: but he gets eaten up alive by fsmash
Kevin: oh can he waveshine oos?
me: sfat did it once
Kevin: wow thats so ********
11:27 AM effin fox lol
me: but most of the time
i won the trade
Kevin: mmhmm
me: since it threw him off guard
and fsmash --> tech chase
is sooo good
that i think it's worth the r-p-s
for sheik's
shield game in general
vs spacies

So F-smash is actually viable? ._.

Tope said:

I'm curious as to why this character is so damn hard to play.

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Because she sucks at initiating offensively but is good at everything else.

Kaffei said:

So F-smash is actually viable? ._.

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dont be ******** lol

you are lowering sheiks metagame.

Ministry said:

dont be ******** lol

you are lowering sheiks metagame.

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hahahahaha alright

someone didnt read tafo's post

Post makes sense. I still think it's goofy. It works for Tafo though so if y'all wanna use it then go for it.

.____.
Ok I'll try it lol?

Lol ministry lol

read the post

sheik's fsmash still sucks lol

i mean idk like you can shield pressure with falco's fair instead of other aerials and hit their shield with 2 or 3 hits and call it a pseudo fuzzy guard setup (look up "fuzzy guard" in other fighting games don't feel like explaining lol) but i still think it sucks compared to other stuff you could be doing :P

I love it when tafokints does it though don't get me wrong, it's like his "thing"

KirbyKaze said:

Because she sucks at initiating offensively but is good at everything else.

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I wonder if PAL Sheik's good at everything else..

You should watch me vs Silentswag. There's many times I abuse it on him =).
0:52
1:19
2:58
3:02
4:42
6:02
6:07

I posted the conversation for the following people:

1. The people that have asked me about how it hits, and what openings I use it for
2. The people that have dismissed it as jank and random, but it really isn't

To summarize, I use it when...

1. The Fox/Falcon/Falco/Marth has been jumping immediately after aerials
2. I want to condition a person to shield for longer periods
3. At middle %s and if their shield is small to shield poke and get some great follow ups
4. When I'm in a situation where the opponent's preferred action is to spot dodge. (The duration of the F-smash will catch a spot dodger). Due to my poor reflexes, I can't really seem to time grabbing after a spot dodge and before the shine (esp against falco).
5. The person has poor reflexes and likes to shield grab everything. It's funny, most people think that they can shield grab me when I f-smash behind them.
6. Against a low% Fox that expects to receive tilts and trade. This is probably one of the shining qualities of F-Smash that will allow me to rack up damage against a low% Fox. If you F-Smash a Fox that's CCing, they will eat both hits and you can get a free dash attack! and dominate

Me vs. S2J
Me vs. Boback


I don't use it when....
1. I'm playing a character with really strong OOS exploits on laggy moves (Puff's rest, Falco's Shine when I'm at low %s)
2. The person is a habitual roller
3. The person is facing me (easy to shield grab)
4. The person has the capability to CC the first hit, turn around, and grab me (very rare).

Toph: The beauty of F-Smash though is that it does have really great follow-ups and sets up great positioning. In many situations, Fair will only get me one hit and no follow ups whatsoever. F-smash in the certain situations can substitute for Fair IMO, but allow me more flexible followups. F-smash against space animals at 10-35% will allow follow up dash attacks, tech chase opportunities, and grabs. Sometimes it even gets me a stock because I'll

1. F-Smash (they DI somewhat away) --> dash attack --> dash attack --> Fair.
2. F-Smash --> tech chase grab into nice stuff

As for timing and spacing, I've laid some general guidelines, but there's this weird instinctive "feel" that leads me to know when to F-Smash. I can't quite explain it, but hopefully this post gives a decent explanation to a rather "useless" move.

To close out, it's not a move that should be spammed, but it does have a small niche of situations that can be used to exploit your opponent.
Honestly in most situations, it's probably the crappiest move ever.

When you outline it like that it sounds a lot better (and a lot more rational). I've had a lot of f-smashes arbitrarily work out really well but I've always dismissed it as a highly situational combo tool (for mid-combo). Its knockdown properties are really good if you can connect the second hit and I suppose its high duration (but greater safety on shield, relative to down smash) is worth some investigation.

I'm still fairly skeptical because I've had some very frustrating incidents where Raynex has crouch-shined me in between my f-smash hits. And I'm already comfortable with what I view as 'safer' anti-crouch options (needles > grab & grab, mainly). I'd also want to know how certain aerials OOS interact with this (mostly bairs & dairs).

Nitpicking your post's information: if you f-smash behind a crouching opponent, they get automatically turned around to face you.

I really like tafokints's posts.

Aight aight you've convinced me haha. Regardless I need to play you when I get to norcal :P

TaFoKiNtS said:

The person is a habitual roller

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I'll be the judge of that.

Glad to see you're back KK.

I agree with Tafo and say that there are times then f-smash is useful. I can't say that I use it on purpose, but there are definitely times when my messed up f-tilt becomes an f-smash, and combo's better than the tilt would. Set's up a good tech chase sometimes and messes with their head.

There have also been times when I'm pissed and wished it was an f-tilt. So there's that.

I'm cooking children in my cauldron.

F-smash has some decent potential to set up certain kinds of positioning with tech chases. You can action out of it pretty quickly and it moves you closer to the opponent's landing spot, which is nice.

My gripe with it, as usual, is that horrific 1st hit.

i come in here and u guys are talking about sheiks f smash.... i am dissapoint

looks like u just spam run behind him and f smash.

sometimes it works cause he lets go of shield and sometimes it doesn't.

if you grab every time there u get way more damage.

i wouldn't say you are abusing him with it either.

he never once naired oos against your f smash. you just are not getting punished for its lag

question: when sheiks needles are stuck in the ground. what exaclty are the qualities
I know they can be hit and cause attacks to have freeze frames. what else can they do?

Occasionally they blow up when the opponent walks over them, which for some reason isn't used as a KO option

Sveet said:

Occasionally they blow up when the opponent walks over them, which for some reason isn't used as a KO option

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Is this real? That's pretty scary.

Falcon is my new least favorite matchup.

Shady has taken up s2j's style, and it completely wrecks my sheik.

What do you do against someone who dash dances in your face safely, but doesn't give you any openings. I can't approach or I get dashdance butt****ed. So I have to react to when he actually does approach...which isn't as easy as it is supposed to be.

Capitalizing on the grabs I do get are the easy part. Getting a good first hit that isn't a trade is turning out to be hard though.

What do you guys look for/how do you successfully pressure a good falcon? Reacting with nair is a great idea, but if you miss one it's a free grab.

Edit: My gripe is that Sheik has a hard time landing the first hit, clearly she is a beast after this. Falcon and Fox are two matchups that have the ability to make this frustratingly obvious.

falcons dash dance has a limit how far it can go.

aim for the back of it. once u pressure that they will keep running, or sh away bair, just chase him down mang

Ministry
- Against sheik in general, it’s not the greatest. As I mentioned, F-smash has a niche and I never implied that it should be used as liberally as f-tilt, jab, fair, etc…
- To answer your question, you can’t really punish with Nair OOS on Sheik’s Fsmash. If I am at < 40%, I can simply crouch cancel, and dash attack him afterwards, which is even better for me because I will get a dash attack -> fair or dash attack -> dashattack/ftilt -> fair + edgeguard opportunity.
- As for simply grabbing, I would disagree. Most people’s anti-shield pressure game deals with “feel” responses.
o I’ll give this scenario:
1. If I’m at a distance where F-tilt barely whiffs my opponent and they are holding shield. If I do a run up, many quicker players instinctively respond with spot dodge, which makes me not like to do run up and grab so liberally.
2. If I’m still at that same F-tilt whiffs and I don’t move forward, many Foxes/falcos etc… will instinctively shield in this spot until they receive that first shield hit from Sheik (f-tilt, fair, jab), and then respond with jump, oos stuff, roll, etc...
o F-smash works to cover both options: the spot dodge and waiting in shield in a pretty safe manner.
o Run-up grab is a hard read because I have to assume that between dashing and going for the grab, that they will not react with spot dodge. This is not safe especially against good Foxes when they can simply spot dodge-> shine -> turnaround upsmash/grab
- Grab would be more ideal if my initial shield pressure distance was right next to him. However, in many of the cases I’ve shown you when I do F-smash are where I can’t simply grab him instantly.

Close down Falcon's space if he does that, eventually he won't be able to dash far enough to counter a hit. Just stay safe when you try to close space, don't be dumb and dash attack or grab when it's obviously going to whiff, falcon's punish game is ridiculous.

Also it doesn't really matter if your first hit is a trade (unless it's a stomp/higher % knee), i.e. if he does a running nair you can ftilt and asdi down, you take damage but are in a good position to 0-death.

You can also play around with storing needles. Try to bait him into punishing, and cancel them to punish an approach.

Tr3mor
- To play against the S2J/Hax style, you have to play attrition against your opponent
- The DD camping is explicitly used to counter tilt-spam. Early game, Falcon will aim to get a read on how you respond to threats, especially when they run in your direction.
- The easiest way to counter dd-spam is to also keep moving. DD-spam relies on the opponent being stationary. To counter this, I will go retreat-Fair or even run towards my opponent, and shield when they attack to close the gap and make them miss on their attacks.
- In this matchup, the character that ends up having to stay stationary will lose. The key to getting the first hit is to eliminate their freedom to move and lock him up. Falcon is terrible and limited in spacing once you force him to stand in place or shield
- It can be frustrating, but stay defensive while moving, and keep in mind that it only requires one hit for you to deal damage/kill Falcon

Other helpful advice.

Jab is surprisingly good to help counter many running approaches from falcon.
Crouching is amazing. As a result, Falcon has to overextend to hit you (stomp approach), which you should be looking out for. Crouching d-tilts and wave dashing to adjust horizontal spacing against falcon is so good. Use it liberally!
Nair is overrated in this matchup. If Falcon is low % and you try nairing, they will eat you up and uair you in response into knee. It's not good unless you can bail yourself on to a higher platform to help against the lag that nair has.

Why not just throw needles at falcon if they're dash dancing
is that too slow

I like using sh needles to safely poke at DDing falcon, and as you close the space to wall him off (which is the goal) you can do sh needle cancel into fair and stuff. Or just do rising SH fair when you know he's gonna try to nair.

Or you can bait aerials and get ready to cc his ****ty nair.

I think horizontal needles are overrated in this matchup.

Let's evaluate the dash dance in 4 positions

a.) running away (close)

If he's close to you and running away, I don't think needling is the best option. You also run the risk of him reacting with a full hop bair/dair. Needles don't do enough to establish position to make it worth the risk

b.) running away (far)

In some aspects this is free damage, because he can't attack you from this position. However, I think there's an opportunity cost here. Granted, you may get 2% damage on the falcon, but I'd rather close the distance and establish stronger stage presence

c.) running toward (close)

If he's close to you and running, needles are rarely good. You might get 2%, but you have so much post lag that I do believe that he can shield and nair OOS or do something stupid.

d.) running toward (far)

Probably, the riskiest point of the dash dance to do needles. If he reads/reacts to it then he will full hop dair you into knee.

tl:dr Needle is risky, doesn't do enough. There are better manuevers

Standing needles may be useful only when falcon is running away (far), but only if it helps to change the Falcon's gameplan. A full set of needle might be better.

Also, when Falcon is far away (like Dashdancing), i usually charge some needles and don't approach, 'cause it's easier to wait for him than rush him. But where should i store needles ? On or above a platform (if i'm in dreamland or BF) ?
I feel more at ease on the platform, but Falcon's AUA is ridiculous :/