Super Mario Bros. Characters Discussion.

Jhonnykiller45 said:

Everyone should have at least one chance in Smash, whether they're important or not.

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With an avatar like yours, I didn't take you for a weakling.

Now I know.

GoldenYuiitusin said:

Toad himself may not have been real important as of late, but the Toad species has with Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. (...screw it. THE Toad is now going to be referred to as Kinopio, Blue Toad will now be called Bucken-Berry, and Yellow Toad will now be called Ala-Gold for the sake of clearing what I mean)
Pretty much, the Toad species adds to Kinopio's resume as did the generic Yoshis did for Yoshi. You think Yoshi got in for being a major character? Hell no, it was the Yoshi species as a whole that pulled the weight.

As for not being able to use spores.....this is countered in Smash Bros., Mario Sports Mix, and even back into the original Mario Tennis.

As for history, Toad is more important historically than Jr. or Paper Mario, and is more advertised on Nintendo merchandise than either of them, making him far more well-known and popular. Hell, Jr. hasn't been in the latest two major Mario titles, 3D Land and NSMB2, while some form of the Toad race has.

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you do pose good points. however, i still see Bowser Jr. and Paper Mario as better choices. When we see Smash Bros 4 as the 4th game in a series that now has a dwindling pool of choices, and not as many characters being added, i just cant see Toad getting the nod over the other two when Sakurai is looking for uniqueness in new characters. And even if he can use spores (even though i always thought it was a hat) thats one part of a moveset that i cant think of without getting rid of a few things from the game. obviously one could be made, but in general, i dont care for Toad .

On the subject of yoshi, i agree that the species had a hand in getting him into the game. But Yoshi DOES have his own games, which is more than Toad has, even if he is the protagonist in Wario's Woods.

Do i think he could get in? Sure, but do i want him in over either of the other 2? Not at all. I even want Paper Mario over Bowser Jr based on the fact that he has been in his own series for 10 years, only being a trophy in the last two Smash installments.

On the other hand, i would take Toad over Waluigi and Daisy any day

EDIT: Just noticed the names. I lol'd

GoldenYuiitusin said:

Toad himself may not have been real important as of late, but the Toad species has with Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. (...screw it. THE Toad is now going to be referred to as Kinopio, Blue Toad will now be called Bucken-Berry, and Yellow Toad will now be called Ala-Gold for the sake of clearing what I mean)
Pretty much, the Toad species adds to Kinopio's resume as did the generic Yoshis did for Yoshi. You think Yoshi got in for being a major character? Hell no, it was the Yoshi species as a whole that pulled the weight.

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Yeah, I think especially "New Super Mario Bros. U" will add a lot to Kinopio's "resume".

But we still don't know if Bowser Jr. will be in it or not.

..... The Mario Franchise slot is basically one big "Wild Card" right now haha

(I'm a big fan of Buken-Berry though... )

The Toads certainly don't play a big part in NSMB2, I bought it today, and they're not there as of world 3...

Toad (Kinopio) runs the Toad Houses in NSMB2.
While not that big of a role, it's still more than what Bowser Jr. got. (Nothing at all)

Oasis_S said:

With an avatar like yours, I didn't take you for a weakling.

Now I know.

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Wait... Someone didn't think I was a joke for at least one moment ? Have I finally gone insane ?

Long ago, back when SWF SSB4 Discussion was limited to only a single thread, I typed up a massive "essay" defending Toad and his likelihood of appearing in Smash Bros. I posted this in Princess Daisy's thread, but it technically belongs here, so I'll post it in here as well. I've posted it below, but I'll break it up into different segments that concern different things. Click on the section you are most interested in, but I encourage you to read the whole thing (sorry it's so LONG! )

Here it is:


IN-DEPTH TOAD "ESSAY"

[COLLAPSE="INTRODUCTION"]Toad… one of the most iconic characters of the Mario series and a popular group that has been with the series since its beginning. Does Toad deserve a playable spot on the roster of a future Super Smash Bros. game? Of course he does! While being one of the most underrated Mario characters, he is also easily one of the most deserving. Some would even argue that he is more deserving than any other Nintendo character. Those who say this are not far from the truth.

First of all, I want to make this clear. I am not a Toad fanboy… I am simply defending Toad, a character that has been shot down by many throughout the years for many dumb, ignorant reasons. It bugs to to see that there are many people who believe that he literally has no chance of appearing at all, or that it is very unlikely compared to other Mario characters. I just want to clear up this misunderstanding.

NOW... why is Toad a perfectly viable (and likely) candidate for a future Super Smash Bros.?[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="TOAD'S HISTORY AND APPEARANCES"]First, let us discuss the history of the little Mushroom Retainer, and where he got his fame, popularity, and significance to the series.

Toad debuted in the first ever Super Mario game, Super Mario Bros. on the NES, the game that introduced Mario and friends to the world, as well as introducing much of the world to video games in general. Toad, along with Mario, Peach, Luigi, and Bowser, was among the original cast of Super Mario characters who made their grand debut on consoles in this 1985 video game. Since the release of Super Mario Bros. on the NES, Toad has appeared in some way in pretty much every single one of the series' major titles. That already is a lot more than many other characters from the series can say.

Throughout these games, Toad has taken on the role of the advice-giver, the distressed character in need of saving, and in at least two major Mario titles, Super Mario Bros. 2 for the NES and New Super Mario Bros. Wii for the Wii, he has been playable. Along with these appearances, Toad will return as a playable character with the release of New Super Mario Bros. Wii U, and was even the star of the NES/SNES puzzle game, Wario's Woods. Toad appears frequently in most of Mario's platformers, and has been especially frequent within the Super Mario Galaxy games, where the Toad Brigade joins Mario on many occasions throughout his adventures. Even in newer releases such as Super Mario 3D Land, Toad doesn't fail to make an appearance, once again, within the game's item houses and dotted among the game's levels offering help.

This doesn't even include the Mario Spin-off titles. Toad has appeared as a playable character in a big chunk of Mario spin-offs, and in a few others, he has taken the role of the game's host in one way or another. Toad is one of the "Mario Big Eight," (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Wario, Bowser, and Toad), the eight characters that have appeared in the majority of Mario spin-off titles since their beginning, and still appear quite frequently. Notice that Toad is the only character in the "Mario Big Eight", as well as the "Original Five" (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Toad) characters to not be represented in Smash with a playable spot.[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="TOAD'S SIGNIFICANCE"]Despite Toad's vast popularity, fame, and involvement with the series, many continue to argue that his "small roles" are what is bringing him down. They fail to even consider the idea that having "small roles" won't always hurt a character's chances. Toad may not have some of the biggest, most important roles in the games, but you definitely cannot say he is unimportant to the series. If you say this, you are ignoring the fact that he has appeared in pretty much every major Mario title and spin-off since the beginning of the series' entire existence. You are ignoring the fact that he has become an iconic character of the series and possibly even of Nintendo in general.

It really baffles me how people can say that characters like Fawful are more deserving because they is "more important." I also find find it funny that people who argue in favor of Fawful over Toad use the argument that he is newer and therefore more recognizable among younger fans. They seem to be neglecting the fact that Toad is well-known not only among younger fans, but among anyone who has ever played any major Mario game no matter how old they are. Sure, being newer doesn't hurt, and being the villain of three Mario games is an important role, but is that really important to the series as a whole? Is he iconic? Is he as well-known, familiar, recognizable or popular as Toad? Ask anyone even remotely familiar with Mario who Toad is, they will more than likely know. You can't do the same with Fawful. Imagine the reaction of Toad's removal from the series compared to the reaction of Fawful never returning again...

Another thing that I find strange is when people who support Bowser Jr. shoot down Toad because of his "diminishing, small roles" within the games. What about Bowser Jr.? The only major role he has ever had in any game was in Super Mario Sunshine for the GCN. Since then, he has been nothing but a mini-boss, and a character who occasionally shows up and taunts the player in games like New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Toad's role has actually grown quite a lot recently... he has had his first playable appearance in any mainstream Mario game since Super Mario Bros. 2 in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and has appeared more (plus with a more interesting role) in the Super Mario Galaxy games than in any previous 3D Mario Platformer. Honestly, how can anyone that supports Bowser Jr. bash Toad's "diminishing role" without blatantly ignoring these facts?


So, what have we learned so far? Being iconic and significant to a series in general is more important than being important to a small fraction of the series' games. We've also learned that having a small role in any specific game(s) of the series really doesn't matter when compared to the character's overall significance to the series, as well as their popularity and familiarity among all gamers and many non-gamers alike.[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="WHY THE "GENERIC SPECIES" ARGUMENT IS IGNORANT AND SHOULD NOT BE USED"]That last section was the big one. I think I made my point quite clear. Now, on to different subject. One argument in particular that still bugs me is the "generic species" argument.

The argument that Toad is a "generic species" is incredibly ignorant. First of all, we all know this. Toad is a part of a generic species, no one is trying to hide it. The fact is that in this case, it doesn't really matter. Take Yoshi for example. Besides in the Mario Spin-off titles, was there ever just a single Yoshi? No, the player has always controlled a Yoshi. Never THE Yoshi. Yoshi always appears as a generic species, and yet he has his place on the Smash Bros. roster. Why does the idea seem so ridiculous in Toad's case? Honestly, I'd like to know. It really baffles me.

Now just for a second, let's take a look at the Mario Spin-off titles. Obviously, being a part of the "Mario Big Eight," both Yoshi and Toad have appeared in the majority of these titles. When you see Yoshi in Mario Kart, you don't think "Hey, there's a Yoshi," do you? It's always "Hey, there's Yoshi." The same goes for Toad. In the spin-offs, and in games like Super Mario Bros. 2 and Wario's Woods it always seems as if you are playing as THE Toad rather than just any random Toad. This illusion of playing as THE Yoshi or THE Toad rather than a Yoshi or a Toad is what allows them to break free of their "generic species" status when it is appropriate. Having "broken free," Toad is able to appear alone in a game like Smash without being a Toad, but rather THE Toad.

It is also worthy of mention that, in Japan, the generic Toad species is referred to as "Kino" while THE Toad is known as "Kinopio".

Now, I know someone will argue that, by this logic, Goomba and Koopa are appropriate choices for a future Smash. This is not true... they have appeared in the spin-off titles, but not enough to have "broken free" of generic species status yet. The fact that they appear as generic baddies in large numbers in the majority of Mario games also keeps them within that "generic species" group, unlike Toad and Yoshi.


What have we learned from this? The "generic species" argument is a worthless, ignorant argument against Toad. Don't try it.[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="TOAD'S MOVESET AND PLAY STYLE POTENTIAL"]One final point that I'd like to address is the argument that Toad is an unoriginal, un-unique (is that a word???) character that lacks moveset potential. I find this laughably false.

First of all, Toad is probably one of the most unique Mario characters not represented in Smash. What other major character in the Mario universe resembles Toad?

Second, let's talk about Toad's playstyle and moveset potential. Being a small character, Toad is known for being very quick, but he is also known for seeming to have superhuman strength as seen in Super Mario Bros. 2. Being a small and quick yet strong character is something not seen often, and could present a unique play-style. Now what about his moveset?

Many moves from the games he has been playable in can be looked at in determining this. Notice that in the three games where he appears as a playable protagonist, the gameplay involves lifting things and throwing/dropping them. This is one obvious ability that Toad could acquire; lifting and throwing characters. The charged high-jump from Super Mario Bros. 2 is another possibility for a move, a move that would probably be utilized as an Up-B recovery move. In Wario's Woods, Toad is given bombs to throw, another possible move. He could also use the new power-ups found in New Super Mario Bros. Wii as an assortment of abilities, not to mention abilities found in Mario spin-off titles. And don't forget that there are many moves that could be designed specially for Toad without making him seem out of character. With this in mind, plus the fact that there are many different elements throughout the Mario series from which he could borrow his moves, you can't deny that Toad does indeed have moveset potential.

What have we learned here? We know that Toad is an original, unique character that could have a different sort of play-style as well as having good potential for a moveset.[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="CONCLUSION"]How about a quick recap. What have we learned?
-Being iconic and significant to a series in general is more important than being important to a small fraction of the series' games. We've also learned that having a small role in any specific game(s) of the series really doesn't matter when compared to the character's overall significance to the series, as well as their popularity and familiarity among all gamers and many non-gamers alike
-The "generic species" argument is a worthless, ignorant argument against Toad. Don't try it.
-We know that Toad is an original, unique character that could have a different sort of play-style as well as having good potential for a moveset.

Any other concerns?


I think I just about covered everything. Please note, that while I did attack Bowser Jr. several times, I do not deny the great possibility of him joining the playable roster in a future Smash. I'd actually put him on or near the same level as Toad, and I wouldn't even be surprised to see both appear.

But I'm here right now to defend Toad.

Just look at everything Toad has going for him. You can't say he is unlikely, or has no chance... in fact it is quite the opposite. This is a character that is popular, familiar, and recognizable among anyone remotely familiar with Mario, as well as unique, original, and iconic of its series and possibly even iconic of Nintendo itself. This is a character that has been a part of the series since the beginning of its existence and is still going strong. If a character like this doesn't deserve to be in Smash, the really, I don't know who does.[/COLLAPSE]

I'm always open to criticism or feedback. Did I miss anything?

GoldenYuiitusin said:

Toad (Kinopio) runs the Toad Houses in NSMB2.
While not that big of a role, it's still more than what Bowser Jr. got. (Nothing at all)

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Yeah. I think Toad definitely has a presence in the Mario Universe, but because he doesn't always play a major role in most Mario games as of late, i'm not too sure he'll make playable status. The way i see it, is if Peach's b move is changed in Smash 4, then he is either an assist trophy or playable.

I may have sounded a bit critical of Toad in my previous posts, but he is behind Bowser Jr and Paper Mario on my Mario wish list (Paper Mario being my top choice). I wouldnt mind if he was a character, but i would MUCH rather it be one of the other two. Actually, as long as Paper Mario gets in as his own series, i dont give a...darn who gets in between the other 2

@Spydor_Enzo

I like it a lot!

I think you should add Golden's points about the "Singled Out" Toad, in Japan, who has his own name. We were talking about it on the end of the previous page.

As well as my points for being part of the "Original 5". And increasing differentiation in recent games.

Other than that, its pretty solid!

GoldenYuiitusin said:

Toad (Kinopio) runs the Toad Houses in NSMB2.
While not that big of a role, it's still more than what Bowser Jr. got. (Nothing at all)

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It may not be much, but Junior is going to appear in Paper Mario Sticker Star. Then again, nowhere near as much appearances as Toad.

R.O.B. said:

It may not be much, but Junior is going to appear in Paper Mario Sticker Star. Then again, nowhere near as much appearances as Toad.

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Aww man, I didn't know that! I'm excited to see what Paper Bowser Jr. Is going to look like

Onyx Oblivian said:

Aww man, I didn't know that! I'm excited to see what Paper Bowser Jr. Is going to look like

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Here you go. This raises his chances even more.

R.O.B. said:

This raises his chances even more.

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Not really, considering how he was absent from 2 main Mario games and possibly is missing from NSMBU, and how the Paper Mario series are considered to be spin-offs.

Onyx Oblivian said:

@Spydor_Enzo

I like it a lot!

I think you should add Golden's points about the "Singled Out" Toad, in Japan, who has his own name. We were talking about it on the end of the previous page.

As well as my points for being part of the "Original 5". And increasing differentiation in recent games.

Other than that, its pretty solid!

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Thanks! And good points, I'm on it!

Jhonnykiller45 said:

Not really, considering how he was absent from 2 main Mario games and possibly is missing from NSMBU, and how the Paper Mario series are considered to be spin-offs.

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eh...i guess they're spin off games. it has evolved into it's own series though. its been around for over 10 years now and has a 4th installment coming. If anything it's less of a spinoff than every other Mario game (Party, Sports, etc...)

If anything, i think Paper Mario's chances get boosted with Sticker Star

Scoliosis Jones said:

If anything, i think Paper Mario's chances get boosted with Sticker Star

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I'd agree with this



...But this doesn't make the debate any easier at all

They're purposefully making it difficult for us, aren't they? haha

At least Paper Waluigi doesn't appear.

Seriously though, I think the only character's chances this game improves is Paper Mario. It helps Bowser Jr. stay "re-occuring" but main series games help him out more than this will, though at least he hasn't been relegated to just sports and karting yet.

Even more for Toad is that Mario has a Toad partner for the first time in the Paper Mario series with Sticker Star. (A Green Toad)

That, and he himself is going to be assisting Luigi in Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon.

A Toad partner? I don't know why, but that hypes me even more for this game.

Jhonnykiller45 said:

You know a character that could appear as a DLC/last minute clone ?
Metal Mario.
I mean, think about it, he's made some recent appearances in Mario Kart 7 and Mario Tennis Open and his first appearance as a separate character was in a Smash game!
I sure wouldn't mind if he did appear, and there's also this:

C'mon, who wouldn't want to bash people around as a plumber made of gold ?

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It's possible but unlikely compared to other Mario characters, though he's had about 6-8 appearances in Mario related games so far. Also, isn't he currently being treated as "Mario's Rival"? I wasn't sure to post here or make a separate thread for his move set.

Metal Mario could have all of Mario's smash 64 Smash moves except his up and down smash, which he'll steal from C. Falcon. His bair can be Dr. Mario's. As for specials I've came up with this:

[COLLAPSE= "Specials"]
Neutral B: Toxic Gas- Metal Mario releases a purple cloud-like gas from his mouth and slowly starts to travel forward. It lasts for 5 seconds and deals 3% damage for each second. It can be reflected. Toxic Gas is from SM 64's Toxic Cavern stage.


Side B: Coin Cyclone- Metal Mario shoots a Spinning fire ball that works like a slightly smaller golden version of Metaknight's tornado from his hands. The tornado will travel horizontally but can be slightly angled like pits arrows. The speed of it will be as fast as Ness' PK Fire, lasts about 4 seconds. When you get caught in it there will be Mario coin sounds while you're taking damage. Random amounts of coins, that range from 1-10 coins, will fall after you've used this move. If you pick one up it'll heal you (1%). This only works if you've hit you're opponent or a crate/barrel. Two cyclones can be out at the same time.


Down B: Shock Wave- When used in the air Metal Mario falls very fast in a straight pose head first, like his entrance from Melee. When he hits the ground the impact creates a shock wave around him and pushes you away while doing damage to his opponent. You're able to angle his trajectory in downward positions. It can be cancelled by doing any move but he'll still fall fast. But if you use your Up B then your momentum drastically slows down, but not fully. If you use this move on the ground then he'll stand straight up and do a backflip while landing head first, causing a shock wave.


Up B: Cave Bat- The bats from SM 64 Toxic Cavern stage. His recovery works like Snake's. After you let go of the bat, it will swoop in towards the nearest enemy and do 4% damage when hit. Bat is block able.
[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE= "Taunts"]

Up- Takes out 8 red coins from behind and juggles them. He puts them back after he juggles all 8, if you attack him then drops all the coins and they bounce away from him and disappear.

Side- Loses balance and falls on his back. He slowly starts to get up like in Melee.

Down- knocks on his hat twice. Makes a metal sound.
[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE= "Stage Entrance"]

Metal Mario's stage entrance:

A green box crashes to the stage and explodes. Metal Mario stands up in a pose and you hear the beginning sound of the metal Mario music from SM 64.

I can't think of anything for winning poses at the moment. I'll add his tilts, grabs, air moves another time. Tomorrow maybe...
[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE= "RECOLORS"]
1. Modern Colored Metal Mario
2. Red Team
3. Blue Team
4. Green Team
5. Gold Metal Mario(NSMB 2)
6. Classic Metal Mario(SM 64)(It's a crappy recolor, but you get an idea)

[/COLLAPSE]

Mario_and_Sonic_Guy said:

Regarding Toad, there has been some controversy with the Red Toad that appeared in Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Galaxy, and Super Mario Galaxy 2. Somehow, it sounds like the Red Toad is THE Toad.

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I can understand why people would say it's THE Toad, because he has red spots on his head. All he has to do is wear a red vest.

Regardless of the appearance differences between the generic Toad and THE Toad, I feel like if Toad did appear in SSB4, he would appear with red dots and a blue vest. That's his most common appearance anyway, and it's not like he hasn't appeared in spin-off titles that way before as THE Toad.

THE Toad has Red dots and a blue vest. At least that is Peach's move anyway. Like i said, when they start revealing characters, if her b move is changed, then it means Toad is either playable or an assist trophy. imo anyway

@Spydr_Enzo: Bravo for that essay. That essay changed me from a detractors to a supporter. You should look into adding two things to it:

- Look under what berserker01 has said to add to the essay, which should be helpful.

- Toad being deemed "peaceful" according to Sakurai. Now while this may come up as a potential issue, a good way to counter this is by saying Sakurai noticed Toad's super strength, thus acknowledging that he has fighting capability.

To be honest, I have never seen a source on the Toad being "too peaceful" issue.

It's right here in his Brawl Trophy description:

One of the servants at Peach's Castle in the Mushroom Kingdom. Toads give off a strong sense of peace. Most feature white heads with red polka dots, but there are other colors as well. Toad's incredible uprooting speed in Super Mario Bros. 2 is unrivaled, adding to the rumor of his superhuman strength... however out of place it might seem.

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Not saying that he won't be in, just saying that Sakurai might see Toad as being "peaceful".

Super Smash Bros. Fan said:

Not saying that he won't be in, just saying that Sakurai might see Toad as being "peaceful".

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Well, one normally would as Toad is the main civilian of the Mushroom Kingdom. It wouldn't seem right if he was plotting world domination, but in reality, he's just sitting in a fungus house giving 'shrooms to plumbers.

Or IS he....?
http://brawlinthefamily.keenspot.com/2012/08/20/431-frog/

Also, Yoshis have gentle personalities, but that didn't stop one from being playable.

A creature that hails from Yoshi's Island. Yoshi's come in a variety of colors, and all possess gentle personalities. No matter what problems they face, they always look like they're having fun. Yoshi's use their long tongues to grab and swallow fruit and enemies. They can convert what they swallow into eggs, which they then lay. They also give Mario rides.

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Yoshis are gentle, fleet-of-foot dinosaurs that make their home on idyllic Yoshi's Island. They come in a variety of colors and have evolved an interesting trait to help increase their numbers: they can transform anything they swallow into an egg. With adhesive tongues and bottomless bellies, Yoshis have been known to eat anything.

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GoldenYuiitusin said:

Or IS he....?
http://brawlinthefamily.keenspot.com/2012/08/20/431-frog/

Also, Yoshis have gentle personalities, but that didn't stop one from being playable.

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Well, you win this round.

Mario_and_Sonic_Guy said:

The thing to keep note though, is that the white mushroom cap with red sports and blue vest is not a unique dress code, as there are many Toads who utilize this fashion statement.

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Maybe they're identifying their lands.

Most of them are American.

If they were American, they'd be as large as Wario.

GoldenYuiitusin said:

If they were American, they'd be as large as Wario.

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Well, they certainly aren't japanese. Look at dem eyes. The eyes of TRUE AMERICANS.

Blank and soulless.

I can see it.

(I love to poke fun at my own country. Not that I am against it; it's just funny.)

Super Smash Bros. Fan said:

@Spydr_Enzo: Bravo for that essay. That essay changed me from a detractors to a supporter. You should look into adding two things to it:

- Look under what berserker01 has said to add to the essay, which should be helpful.

- Toad being deemed "peaceful" according to Sakurai. Now while this may come up as a potential issue, a good way to counter this is by saying Sakurai noticed Toad's super strength, thus acknowledging that he has fighting capability.

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Thanks for the insights SSBF! Next time I am online, I'll be sure to add to it. Every little bit can help.

Golden, why do you never cease to amuse me ?

Jhonnykiller45 said:

Golden, why do you never cease to amuse me ?

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I am a man of comedy.

Thank you, Spyder Enzo, for your defense in Toad's behalf. I could just like your post but this ain't Facebook!

I also think it is kinda funny and awesome how the top three contenders for the 5th Mario slot are all on the front cover of Paper Mario: Sticker Star. I'm just glad there's no Paper Waluigi on there.

jigglover said:

The Toads certainly don't play a big part in NSMB2, I bought it today, and they're not there as of world 3...

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The Toads are found inside Toad Houses. The Toad Houses are found in the first 8 worlds.