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ROM 5 - Mew2King vs Unknown522

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outofphase

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i still dont get why unknown didnt wait for an answer. it was m2k's marth on fd for f***'s sake. even though he brought it close, he should have made sure one way or the other before allowing a such a hugely important game go to a practically auto-win stage for m2k. thats why i dont think it should have been replayed. unknown couldnt have cared very much, and ultimately played the game.
 

Mahie

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What I understood from watching the stream was that M2K said something along the lines of "I asked Alukard and he said it was ok to do this", in which case he was not assuming mDSR was on, but downright lying.

If this is wrong and I didn't hear correctly then nvm, but if it's true then Alukard's decision to replay the last game makes sense to me.
 

Habefiet

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The quote contained within this post is from a different topic that has since been closed. I was originally going to post this there. Good thing I copy-pasted.

I liked the idea someone had of posting tournament rules around the tournament.

Also, should there be a rule against splitting after this tournament? I think so. People can get away with splitting at small locals, but I don't think this **** should fly at a tournament of this size and importance.
I'm going to assume the first part refers to me, since I posted about it earlier in a not-ROM thread, then posted again when something happened at ROM.

At a random MN local back in January, the TO printed off copies of the ruleset and placed them around the venue. Heck, at a freebie run in my dorm last year someone wrote the ruleset up on the whiteboards in the room for easy viewing. At FC, IIRC, they had the ruleset at each setup, or at least at each table of setups. It is not much of a stretch for nationals to do this. This is not the first tournament where there has been confusion about the ruleset, nor will it be the last if tournament organizers do not take initiative to make the rules clear.

At this tourney alone:

1. There was confusion about whether Wobbling was legal.
2. There was confusion about which version of DSR was in effect.
3. There was confusion about whether or not Bo5's had bans allowed (this last one was especially weird to me because that's been an extremely prominent rule at every tourney I'm aware of for a year now except FC which everyone knows full well had a "throwback" ruleset).

And that's just what we saw on stream.

I implore tournament organizers to take this simple step in the future, or to at least announce the ruleset at the venue pre-tourney or something. Yes, it is on the players to know the rules, but it removes a whole lot of hassle for everyone and prevents such controversies as the one that happened tonight. This is a minor expense that will make everyone's lives much, much easier.

What tonight made me decide is needed:

1. Posted rulesets at tourneys to allow easy checking

1.5. For good measure, commentators should be forced to wear glasses that occasionally display "THERE ARE NO BANS IN BEST OF FIVES" in giant red letters. Seriously guys, I love you, but c'mon. You're doing commentary. You should know the ruleset. For months I've been tuning into tourneys and hearing commentators say, multiple times, "*gasp* [Player 1] took him to [stage]?!? What did [Player 2] ban? Wow, what a strange move," again and again over the course of the tourney, and it never occurs to them that maybe there are no bans in best of fives like there haven't been at every tourney for quite some time now. I do think the commentators remembered this partway through tonight, but still.

2. A clear definition of out-of-game stalling. Rulesets frequently have some sort of vague restriction that says "Please don't take too long stage striking, too long counterpicking, too long warming up, etc." Literally no one ever gets called on this. Everyone just sits around frustrated. IMO, rulesets need to make this extremely clear. Once a match is called, a player can request one minute to warm up. Further, they can take exactly one minute in between matches to decide stage bans / character selection and so forth. No warm-ups are allowed in between matches. If these limits are exceeded the player can be disqualified at the TO's discretion. Or SOMETHING. I don't know, someone else set the time limits if they don't think those are good, those are just examples.

3. Ruleset needs to be clear on what should happen in the case of a dispute. Ideally this should literally never happen ever because the ruleset should be posted and players should come knowing the ruleset and so on, but just in case, the ruleset should clarify. In the case of a dispute, a player has the right to request a TO to come over and check it out. The TO will ensure it occurs in accordance with the rules. If the request is determined to be frivolous and blatantly performed in order to delay the start of the match for any reason (ex. if person is insisting on checking which version of DSR is in effect when it is clearly displayed on a posted ruleset at the setup), the player may be disqualified at the TO's discretion. If a game is played in violation of the rules, the game's results stand.

4. Ruleset should be clear on whether or not splitting, sandbagging, or any variant of either is legal. FC's ruleset said that the TO's reserved the right to disqualify any player that they felt was not trying their hardest to win. If splitting/sandbagging are not intended to be acceptable, they need to be listed as such in the ruleset so that there will not be controversy if disciplinary action is taken against the players in question.

Sorry if any of this is unclear or written poorly. It's one in the morning here and I was up early this morning. I will be happy to clarify tomorrow if anyone finds anything unclear or disagreeable.

And as long as I've got your attention, all sets in bracket should be Bo5, partly because they're a more accurate measure of skill and partly because under our current ruleset Bo3s and Bo5s test different skills, which is weird. But that's for another topic, I suppose.
 

Pink Reaper

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This is a dumb thread

Both M2K and Unknown are responsible for knowing the rules. Saying "It goes against the status quo" is a stupid ****ing argument and you should be ashamed of yourself for making it. The rules were up. The TOs job of letting you know the rules is fulfilled when he puts the rules in the thread. At that point it is your responsibility to learn them. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

That said the blame still falls on Alukard. If the match was illegal it should have been stopped before it even started. This was top 4 of the tournament, how are you not watching this game? A rule was broken, a rule that you set and as such it was his responsibility to enforce the proper ruleset.

On the notion of forfeiting. I've said this before and I will say it again: If a player wishes to forfeit he is entirely within his right to do so, but at no point should that player be allowed to continue in the tournament. If Unknown didnt want to play a match, fine, he doesnt have to. He should be allowed to forfeit and be removed from the bracket completely. To put it into perspective, if in fact rather than attempting to forfeit he just simply didnt show up to his match and was D/Q'd what would the difference be? If he played the match but didnt really try because he didnt want to win, what would the difference be? Honor rules are bull****, you cannot enforce them, do not attempt to. If you want to discourage forfeiting, make it a full d/q from tournament and winnings. You can give up your spot and you get nothing for it.

On the notion of splitting. It's your money. M2k, KK and unown clearly got top 3. If they want to go out and all put it together to buy some super expensive Thai hooker(or a bunch of inexpensive russian hookers) fine, it's your money. But it's only your money AFTER you've won. You want to split? Win the tournament. Dont win? No money. Sorry. However you cannot punish them for not trying their hardest. As long as they played their sets, they did not break any rules. It sucks but it's something you have to accept. You cannot enforce "Trying hard." You can however punish those who you feel ruin good tournaments. A TO has complete control over who is and isnt allowed in their tournaments. Dont like the idea of a grand finals where two people just dont give a ****? Then dont allow them to enter. The second you let someone enter your tournament is the second they are allowed to play however they want.

This post is entirely my own opinion and in no way reflects the opinions of any other MBR members.

Edit: Side note, why is EC so god damn terrible at running tournaments? Drama every other day.

Double Edit: OMG ycz12, the second best Samus, right behind Hugo on RR
 

ycz12

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On the splitting issue, I'm against retroactively punishing players for actions not explicitly banned, as I think that tends to cast the community in a worse light than any one controversy does. As bad as public, hype-slaughtering splitting in finals is, I don't think it's enough of an extenuating circumstance to merit breaking that code.

Remember Pound V? That sure seemed pretty bad at the time. But Melee is still here. Let's fix the ruleset and move on.
 

Juggleguy

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Mew2King and Unknown are both responsible for knowing the rules, but it's Alukard's responsibility to advertise a strange rule (one that hasn't been used at any of the other major tourneys in 2012) a lot more than writing one line about it in a Smashboards thread.
 

Qual_

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Wooooh.... After L cancel, Missile cancel, Shine cancel, up B cancel :

FORFEIT CANCEL !

Easy to do, You can do it at the end of a match, or even right after ragequit, then press quickly the hand shaking button, go forward.. then press immediatly the joystick in the opposite side to perform the forfeit cancel.
 

MattDotZeb

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This is a dumb thread

Both M2K and Unknown are responsible for knowing the rules. Saying "It goes against the status quo" is a stupid ****ing argument and you should be ashamed of yourself for making it. The rules were up. The TOs job of letting you know the rules is fulfilled when he puts the rules in the thread. At that point it is your responsibility to learn them. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

That said the blame still falls on Alukard. If the match was illegal it should have been stopped before it even started. This was top 4 of the tournament, how are you not watching this game? A rule was broken, a rule that you set and as such it was his responsibility to enforce the proper ruleset.

On the notion of forfeiting. I've said this before and I will say it again: If a player wishes to forfeit he is entirely within his right to do so, but at no point should that player be allowed to continue in the tournament. If Unknown didnt want to play a match, fine, he doesnt have to. He should be allowed to forfeit and be removed from the bracket completely. To put it into perspective, if in fact rather than attempting to forfeit he just simply didnt show up to his match and was D/Q'd what would the difference be? If he played the match but didnt really try because he didnt want to win, what would the difference be? Honor rules are bull****, you cannot enforce them, do not attempt to. If you want to discourage forfeiting, make it a full d/q from tournament and winnings. You can give up your spot and you get nothing for it.

On the notion of splitting. It's your money. M2k, KK and unown clearly got top 3. If they want to go out and all put it together to buy some super expensive Thai hooker(or a bunch of inexpensive russian hookers) fine, it's your money. But it's only your money AFTER you've won. You want to split? Win the tournament. Dont win? No money. Sorry. However you cannot punish them for not trying their hardest. As long as they played their sets, they did not break any rules. It sucks but it's something you have to accept. You cannot enforce "Trying hard." You can however punish those who you feel ruin good tournaments. A TO has complete control over who is and isnt allowed in their tournaments. Dont like the idea of a grand finals where two people just dont give a ****? Then dont allow them to enter. The second you let someone enter your tournament is the second they are allowed to play however they want.

This post is entirely my own opinion and in no way reflects the opinions of any other MBR members.

Edit: Side note, why is EC so god damn terrible at running tournaments? Drama every other day.

Double Edit: OMG ycz12, the second best Samus, right behind Hugo on RR
I still love your location.
 

Roneblaster

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in all seriousness, if some1 forfeits, **** THEM let them forfeit. punish them by making them also DQ'ed from losers as well.
 

MattDotZeb

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Just FYI, everyone has been using Standard and Modified DSR wrong. I don't know where and when this started but I intend to put a stop to it.

Standard is not being able to pick the LAST stage you won on.
Modified is not being able to pick ANY stagy you won on.

Straight from the Dave's mouth:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2303398&postcount=9
Sooooooooooooooooooooooo m2k was in his rights to go back to FD?


Alright guys. Let's redo g5.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
I don't know, it depends on what the TOs intended by saying "Modified DSR."

My opinion though is that once a game is done, it's done, barring very exceptional circumstances that are up to the TO's discretion. This isn't like reviewing a play in the NFL where you're actually trying to ascertain the facts of the situation, this is a case where both people agreed to the match until after the fact.
 

Anand

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The tournament thread actually defined Standard and Modified DSR in the footnotes (the way they were interpreted by the TO), so no Game 7 unfortunately. Funny discovery by Sheridan though!

Edit:
Actually, that post you quoted isn't super conclusive (the "variation" it refers to says you can't play the same stage twice in a set, even if you lost on it). Not that it really matters; I think the best solution is to just say the actual rule and drop the terms "Standard DSR" and "Modified DSR" entirely, especially because "Standard" is no longer standard, or something.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
I really thought this was common knowledge, until about maybe 9 months ago I started seeing people get the meanings switched. I also am a very old human being that was around before Modified DSR even existed, and I used to hang out with Scamp sometimes.
 
D

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we will attempt to resolve the situation away from public persecution. sheridan, please help me direct members to the MBR thread that i created.
 

Bones0

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I agree with Leffen that the way DSR(m? not even sure now) works is inherently flawed. The order the games are won or lost in shouldn't affect the overall stage selection of the set. I'm gonna type my own rule set and see what I can come up with as an alternative to DSR.
 

bertbusdriver

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What I understood from watching the stream was that M2K said something along the lines of "I asked Alukard and he said it was ok to do this", in which case he was not assuming mDSR was on, but downright lying.

If this is wrong and I didn't hear correctly then nvm, but if it's true then Alukard's decision to replay the last game makes sense to me.
This was my impression as well. I would have DQd M2K if this turned out to be true.

On the other hand, a lot of the discussion has been pure conjecture. It turns out KK didn't split (according to Unknown), and people have been burning him at the cross for doing so. Let's try to reserve full judgement until the facts come out.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
The tournament thread actually defined Standard and Modified DSR in the footnotes (the way they were interpreted by the TO), so no Game 7 unfortunately. Funny discovery by Sheridan though!

Edit:
Actually, that post you quoted isn't super conclusive (the "variation" it refers to says you can't play the same stage twice in a set, even if you lost on it). Not that it really matters; I think the best solution is to just say the actual rule and drop the terms "Standard DSR" and "Modified DSR" entirely, especially because "Standard" is no longer standard, or something.
Well, it establishes what "Standard DSR" is, and there is an ambiguity over whether the variation he is referring to is what became Modified DSR.

I think we should call the new standard "Famous DSR"
 

Bones0

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Famous DSR is a dumb name because if it ever becomes obsolete, it will just create infinitely more confusion.

Also, for the record, these are the definitions given in the MBR Official Rule Set Thread:
Standard DSR: A player/team may not counterpick to a stage they have won on.
DSR Modified: A player/team may not counterpick to the stage they last won on.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
Famous DSR is a dumb name because if it ever becomes obsolete, it will just create infinitely more confusion.

Also, for the record, these are the definitions given in the MBR Official Rule Set Thread:
It was a play upon the Ray's Pizza in New York. There's Original, Famous, Famous Original and so on.

And those definitions are wrong and should be changed.
 

.Ðempt

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Is this really what it has come to?

Hyuga is 100% correct (obviously with proof to back it up). Standard DSR states M2K was within his rights.

Since that is the case, this entirely on Alukard and Unknown. Alukard, for not knowing the rules to his own tournament, and Unknown, for challenging a set after it has been played through.

M2K got BONED. There honestly isn't a better word for it.

As for the split, everyone can go eat a **** and suck it up. Don't like it? Tough ****. That is 100% the players' choice and unless the TO has made the call to not allow the split so everyone can get their "hype match", then those three have every right to do so, and quite frankly, I think it was an excellent resolve to the cluster**** that happened, including a quick resolve to everyone being tired and wanting to go home (fyi, if you're a commentator, don't ***** about wanting to go home on stream, you chose to be there, knowing the possible consequences, don't sound like a child because no one wants to hear it).

Wasn't aware that the community was full of a bunch of ****ing babies, Jesus Christ.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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What the players do with their money after the fact is entirely their business. However until they get their money, they need to follow the tournament rules. And I can guaran-****ing-tee you that if people tried to pull this **** at a tournament that I ran (e.g. Genesis 2), these players would not get their money until they played a serious set. Finals matches are about more than just the players in them, and I have no problem taking money from players that don't understand that and giving it to the players right behind them that play with fire.
 

Vinylic.

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As for the split, everyone can go eat a **** and suck it up. Don't like it? Tough ****. That is 100% the players' choice and unless the TO has made the call to not allow the split so everyone can get their "hype match", then those three have every right to do so, and quite frankly, I think it was an excellent resolve to the cluster**** that happened, including a quick resolve to everyone being tired and wanting to go home (fyi, if you're a commentator, don't ***** about wanting to go home on stream, you chose to be there, knowing the possible consequences, don't sound like a child because no one wants to hear it).
It's not allowed, the same as it's not allowed on any thing e-sports. Sure, splitting on local/regional events is one thing.
Splitting on a National tournament with 3,000+ viewers on stream is not even the definition of being okay with that.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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For what reason? There's plenty of constructive discussion here. Leave the thread open.
yeah, cursing at people for being babies helps so much.
All sarcasm aside. As the person above said, this was a national tournament with 3000 viewers.

This isn't some local where people can mess around and no one cares since everyone knows everyone.

Smash potentially could come to EVO. Do you honestly think that splitting would be "ok" then? Look what happened in MLG. We became the laughing stock after getting a chance because of a few morons who didn't understand the fact that they could not collude and influence the bracket. It was clearly defined as it should be at nationals.

I don't care what people do with their money past a tournament. Play an actual set or at least fake a good set and then people will not complain nearly as much.

I didn't mind KirbyKaze's play. The loser's finals was actually fine as KirbyKaze was also using a character that he uses well and he used Sheik. If he split, well ok. I don't give a crap as the set was actually fine.

In Grand Finals there were 6 games played out of a possible 10, the minimum for a double 3/5 set. In none of the matches did either play show that they cared (outside of maybe Mew2King in some of 'em. No courtesy fox play. No close matches and most of them were laughable which is terrible on the main stage, especially for people who were in some ways hyped.
 

.Ðempt

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@ Hyuga & Vinyl: No, they didn't need to play a "serious set". Yes, it was 100% allowed. Maybe by both your morals, it wasn't. Give me an MBR rule forbidding splitting, and I will give you a ****. Because if you want to ***** about something like that, then you have the right to get mad at Alukard or the community for not specifying such, but don't get mad at the players just because it didn't turn out the way you wanted it to. Welcome to competitive ****ing gaming.
 

Juggleguy

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I'm still disappointed that so many people are talking about the splitting and nobody is talking about the terrible TOing decision that led to it.

Does anyone honestly think the splitting would have happened if the players hadn't been subjected to the awful Winners Semis Game 5 miscall? That stuff ruins your entire mindset for the rest of the tourney.
 
D

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I'm still disappointed that so many people are talking about the splitting and nobody is talking about the terrible TOing decision that led to it.

Does anyone honestly think the splitting would have happened if the players hadn't been subjected to the awful Winners Semis Game 5 miscall? That stuff ruins your entire mindset for the rest of the tourney.
splitting as a concept is much easier to attack because it does not require knowledge of the actual situation.

whether the TO is at fault or not, this is not a good time to play the blame game.

the truth is, we are not fully certain of the events as they unfolded. even if you know exactly what happened, most people do not. i know i certainly don't have the full story. please post your input in the MBR thread, you seem to have followed the incident particularly well.
 

Battlecow

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m2k has split many, many times in the past without any TO screwage whatsoever. I don't see why Unknown would have been less likely to split if he'd lost WS's

KK didn't split? yeah right. That's why he wanted to play kirby vs Pichu in WF's.
 

Bob Money

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How on earth are you blaming a TO for the mindset of 3 individuals its almost like they had no choice. M2k had a chance to man the **** up and win the tournament, so did unknown
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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I'm still disappointed that so many people are talking about the splitting and nobody is talking about the terrible TOing decision that led to it.

Does anyone honestly think the splitting would have happened if the players hadn't been subjected to the awful Winners Semis Game 5 miscall? That stuff ruins your entire mindset for the rest of the tourney.
Well this as well. It was listed as Standard DSR in the ruleset but this should have been underlined or bolded or something. The only way that I could think that the match had to be restarted would be is Mew2King actually told Unknown that he could repick Final Destination again. Then, it would be a different issue a Mew2King unknowingly/knowingly lied.

Another note highlighting something from my previous post.
Smash potentially could come to EVO. Do you honestly think that splitting would be "ok" then? Look what happened in MLG. We became the laughing stock after getting a chance because of a few morons who didn't understand the fact that they could not collude and influence the bracket. It was clearly defined as it should be at nationals.
 

CanISmash

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TO OP and anyone blaming alukard is not too bright. the tourney rules were up well in advanced.

it's like crying that you want to break a 2 year cell phone contract that you signed are you ****ing kidding me.

who cares anyway the community is already dying, chances of sparking interest in new folks get smaller and smaller with pot splits and sandbagging like we saw tonight.

i've never watched a marvel grand finals where players split publicly or privately and didn't play their hardest not for the cash but for the crown. to simply be better. HBOX for president in 2013. i hope you b-air your way through everyone


we all gotta start acting like responsible adults. this game is 10 years old...
 

bertbusdriver

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I'm still disappointed that so many people are talking about the splitting and nobody is talking about the terrible TOing decision that led to it.

Does anyone honestly think the splitting would have happened if the players hadn't been subjected to the awful Winners Semis Game 5 miscall? That stuff ruins your entire mindset for the rest of the tourney.
If we find out that M2K did in fact say "I checked with Alu, and he said that this version of DSR is in effect" and misled Unknown, would you feel the same way? This was alluded to by the commentators on the stream.

The fact that the rule might be largely deprecated is irrelevant. Rulesets are up to the discretion of the TO, and once they are in place they should be observed unless both parties knowingly agree otherwise. (Not saying ignorance would justify the replay of the match, but in the case that M2K did give Unknown misinformation, there's cretainly some of that grimer you michigan players like to refer to)
 
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