PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Punzz said:

so pp out of all of mango's characters who is the hardest to deal with?

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His Falco.

FrootLoop said:

hey can I get some pointers on my latest set vs kelly?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBnN5DP9yr8

I had some bad habits particularly on wakeup, but that seems easier to fix than my platform problems.
I don't know what to do when he escaped pressure by taking the side platform on battlefield. He did it when I had him cornered/almost cornered, and I found the situation reversed a lot.
Same on yoshis with the top platform, I don't want to go up there and he could just eventually maneuver is way back.
On FD I got full hop drilled a lot, and I think I just ought to fake more in those situations since my approach was getting read.

Basically I couldn't press my advantages and I dropped lots of combos. Any advice is appreciated!

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Game 1:

0:15- shine out of that uptilt.

0:20- that upsmash wouldn't have comboed and you would have gotten punished even if he didn't CC it. just WD back or SH away after taking that Bair so you could Bair or laser if Kels didn't chase you. if you wind up holding shield, then try WD'ing back or FH'ing OOS and mixing in Dair OOS since Kels was kinda stuck.

0:25- could have had Kels fall into your Utilt. it's a great reversal and keeps Fox honest. watch how westballz sets those up.

0:28- just WD in place then combo or Dair/Nair a little earlier so you can keep that free damage going.

0:36- laser didn't connect and you were too far away(if you were copying mango there, realize his lasers to aerials out of corners only work because the opponent tries to get under him when he does that.....just shoot more and get closer before attacking out)

Try to Uair when you're towards the middle of the stage so the opponent can't fly past your head.

0:55- jump shine there since the lasers won't knock fox over enough yet

1:00- WD around more/walk around more so you can uptilt

1:05- Dair earlier so he doesn't combo break

1:09- don't telegraph lasers ever that's the fastest way to drop an edgeguard. laser once tops then try moving and dair'ing/bair'ing(at least as a mixup)

1:21- Had you come up with Bair/delayed Bair then you would have gotten a good hit or at least pressure there. Also if you shined closer to him you could have shined again for a hit.

1:38- Dair a little closer to the edge and preferably have it connect lower.

1:58- FH waveland not DJ because you can shield getup attack and most people don't getup attack at low percent when you're under them.

then you sort of attack really quickly out of wakeup and you just need to laser or put your back to him more or FH more so he can't just wait you out....if he is just waiting then just shoot him lol.

2:13- Go Bair/Dair him!!!

Dsmash his side Bs to the edge unless he's close enough to shorten.

2:30- spotdodging nairs isn't good vs fox. shielding them and shine OOS'ing any high nairs is good as well as countering with Bair if you see the Nair come out.

3:20- Nair him offstage to free dair edgeguard to win the game

Lasers

Hey so you guys know what, we should talk about lasers. No one does that. Well, not that a lot goes on in here besides Falco mockery and "critique my Falco" anyway.


So, everyone knows that Falco's lasers are a huge part of his game. Why are they so important? What do lasers do? How do they help Falco's gameplay and what different functions can they serve? What mixups do lasers open up? Asking questions about any tool and can be amazing for understanding and improving on the usage of any tool.


Lasers are important because they help to alleviate Falco's weaknesses(slower running speed and poor dash dance) and build on his strengths(setting up his killer combos and shield pressure.) They achieve this goal by putting a projectile that moves forward at a quick pace horizontally.

Let's break all of that down. First of all, I believe it's important to define what a projectile is exactly. A projectile is a moving hitbox which is separate from the character using it, and is primarily used to allow the character using the projectile to approach or control how the opponent approaches....or camp lol. Lasers certainly allow Falco to approach because they force the opponent to deal with the stun the lasers inflict on the opponent. They also keep the opponent from approaching horizontally(ignoring powershielding talk for now) since they have to interact with the horizontal projectile. This is why many characters use platforms and other large heights to fight Falco despite his FH priority. His projectile just isn't worth dealing with to them lol. But look what I just mentioned: Falco's FH and priority. The laser is forcing people to interact with Falco's actual scary attributes like his Bair range and strength or his Dair combo potential and priority.
Additionally, consider how people can only approach horizontally when a laser is not directly affecting them. This gives Falco time to prepare his priority on his Bair/Dair/Ftilt/etc or space himself properly to react if the opponent comes into Falco's space.
Combining these principles with platforms makes Falco's laser reach and effects wide, but also greatly facilitates all areas of his projectile game, including his approach one.

To approach, Falco must get himself close enough to the opponent to set up an aerial or shine so he can begin pressure or grabbing or moving mixups. Most characters achieve this position by tricking their opponent using spacing or timing mixups, but Falco can use his projectile to get there since it'd be hard to maneuver well within space and time since his dash(dance) doesn't make that very easy.

To camp, Falco can control how the opponent attacks him horizontally and combine the vertical safety of the platform to stay under them and be virtually protected in some way from harm at all times. He can also control people and keep them from attacking him if he's on a platform from the side and make it more likely that someone will have to deal with his Dair priority, or have to wait so they chase him more when he FHs away. It depends, people camp in different ways lol.



Building upon this topic, we have what I like to call "laser spacing." At a given time, you can laser in many different places using momentum from a dash or staying in place to adjust how the opponent will respond to the laser and how your options look after they respond. Dashes, WDs, jumps(with or without fast fall). These options will all influence how quickly you can get a laser out and what visual cues can throw off your opponent and give you mixups such as attacks that can lead to combos or space instead of using a laser to achieve a similar effect(this is all basically conditioning.)
Say you want to pressure a Fox. Well sure you could just dash forward FF laser into aerial pressure, but what if you did a full dash into no FF? Then the laser would come out on Fox just as you landed near him and you could shine into pressure or a grab? He would also be really surprised since you didn't FF.

I'm not writing as much about this because I want people to read it and ask questions about it instead of me just spoonfeeding it to them blatantly.


Then of course we have the mixups. When you're not lasering, you could be moving like you're going to laser and just aerial instead(the jumping visual cue is now more deceiving). Simple example is DD twice to threaten and then laser in vs DD twice and aerial/WD/dash in to screw with the opponent. Maybe when you're cornered, people want to punish Falco for lasering, so you run out and aerial instead of playing around. Maybe you FH. Maybe you just walk forward Ftilt because immediate reactions like lasers are always quick and you want to portray a different timing/visual cue and really mess with someone's head. It's not always about the combo or quick move guys.

Again, leaving a lot here for questions and possibly later writing.

discuss!

Bl@ckChris said:

Kevin your lasers aren't fair.

Can u sdi up a laser reset if you're bouncing?

Mmmmm I can taste the derailing of useful things in pps post to this insignificant trifle of info already...

Edit: for real tho, would u classify foxes laser as not a projectile by your definition? Nobody really HAS to deal with them except primarily psychologically. I know that's a whole other thing, but the fact that falcos lasers have substance seems rather pivotal to their projectile nature by your definition.

Edit 2: how do u feel about lasers as a part of shield pressure? Can they reset shield pressure in a way I imagine or do u need a certain amount of momentum to make an approaching laser scary enough to start shield pressure from?

I'm talkin like laser in dair shine fadeback laser and repeat or something. Actually it sounds pretty dumb. It probably works but there are a lot of outs to cover...

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You can SDI a laser reset up.

I consider Fox's laser a projectile, but it doesn't really control the opponent's approach more than makes them more prone to attack you from any direction after you laser. Fox's laser is funny because it doesn't force the opponent to do anything, but it does significantly change how Fox is perceived since he's not dashing and they can't just wait for Fox to SH Nair in like a noob if they're taking damage, etc. It's a very funny neutral tool, and Fox makes great use of it.

Lasers during shield pressure are great because they cover rolls and some jumps and WDs OOS. They also freak the opponent out because it's like re-establishing pressure from approach and so it compounds the pressure people feel in their heads, especially since they have to wait for more iterations of pressure afterward.

stabbedbyanipple said:

When do you feel like it's a better idea to control your opponents aerial/platform movement (which they normally use to deal with SHL) with aerial/platform lasers rather than Falco's sick *** FH options and utilt?

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Depends on matchup and player and conditioning, but my general rule of thumb is to FH if they seem stuck or wanting to play defense and I'll try to get them to come into my Utilt otherwise. I also do a lot of movement type baiting before all of this sometimes because, well, they aren't going to go straight at Falco usually lol so I get time to mess with their heads and see if I can push them to act before me.

unknown522 said:

You can SDI laser resets.

If you're not a spacie

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I'm pretty sure you can as a spacie but I always forget to SDI up.

How sure are you about this? We may need to get some tests going lol.

Bones0 said:

I'm sure spacies can at a high enough percent.


@PP
I am pretty happy with my laser game, but the weakest part of it is definitely how efficiently I am able to capitalize off of shielded lasers. It seems like most characters have a pretty reliable safety OoS option after shielding lasers to keep you from running in (WD OoS almost universally, Marth fadeaway fair OoS, Sheik fadeaway nair OoS, Falco fadeaway dair OoS, Fox shine OoS, etc). If my opponents are getting away with these escapes consistently, does that mean I should focus more on beating the escape, or preventing the escape in the first place by landing closer? I try to land SHLs within shine range as much as possible, but sometimes they WD back and I'm just in no position to do anything particularly useful, and then when I think about chasing their OoS options, I have to also consider the more offensive options. The ones I listed above are all sort of the default, safe options, but occasionally the character will WD back and immediately move forward to attack (like Marth/Sheik WD back followed up a quick dash attack forward), or Marth/Jiggs fair OoS drifting forward to catch me DDing as I wait for their safe option.

So yeah, just as general as possible, how do manage situations where your laser wasn't spaced close enough for a shine? Or jab I guess, but I jab a lot less than you do during pressure. Maybe add a bit about when/why you aren't worried about jabbing shielded opponents. I've seen you use it with pretty good success especially against Fox as a pseudo-late shine that you can usually get a grab off of as they hold shield, or straight combo into a DA/aerial at higher %s when he has more KB.

One other thing that just came to mind is when people just FH OoS onto side plats when you are pretty far away. So like if you laser from mid stage when they're ~1 ft from the ledge, they just shield and/or jump to that side plat. What do you like to do to deter this behavior, or do you just focus on working effectively once they choose to engage in that situation (since it doesn't seem like there's anything substantial you can do to prevent it except maybe throw out a uair to try and hit them as they WL down onto it)?

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If all of those people move away, then they are in lag and they gave up stage. More stage means you can apply pressure easier, and them being in lag means you can start up laser pressure/approaches again if you want. There's nothing wrong with just going in sometimes(Falco's approaches at those angles are still tough to handle especially out of WD lag) and it lets your lasers/movement in place of just going in more formidable since you COULD be going in well at any time.
My basic answer for these situations is a little bit of movement trickery or re-lasering usually. I rarely go in there unless I'm pretty sure the opponent will hold shield and they're caught offguard. It depends on momentum and character and such though.

If you KNOW someone is going for the side platform when you laser, then don't laser until you're closer lol. That screws with people's heads and gives you the chance to get in closer to them so you can laser and actually prevent them from WL'ing.

You can't always do that though, so when this situation does arise you can just do empty hop feints/FH tricks(don't always have to rising aerial lol) and try to poke with Uair sometimes. Shine waveland is pretty cool but it's success will vary by matchup, etc etc, and staling.

KirbyKaze said:

Wow Kevin, lasers do stun?!

Mind = blown

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you tryna cuddle

unknown522 said:

@ PP: maybe. I can somewhat consistently SDI laser resets with Almost any character. I can never do it as fox. With falco, it doesn't come up much

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I can see Fox being the hardest to SDI a reset with, but I don't really know percents for it. I'll play around with some percents tomorrow hopefully.

Umbreon said:

God if **** was a meat we'd all be hard carnivores.



Let's set up a basic premise: your ability, and your opponent's ability relative to your own, are both limited by what you can and cannot do.

Game interactions are based around what you can and cannot do. Therefore, you have two main objectives when formulating a game plan:

1. Advance your game plan.
2. Hinder your opponent's game plan.

These two concepts combine to allow you to dictate the flow of the match. Lasers can be used to advance your game plan or to hinder the opponent's game plan. Like nearly all evaluation aspects of competitive gaming, this is done through a sense of positioning. In fact, nearly all competitive games that have player against player interaction can be thought of as positioning games. Fighters, first-person shooters, racing, and strategy games like chess can all be thought of as positioning games. The premise for what defines good position may change for each individual game, but they may be treated similarly for competitive purposes.

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Falco's laser is a low risk, high reward tool based on positioning that can be used to advance your game plan or hinder your opponent's game plan. While both aspects are important on a theoretical level, the Falco player often does both. I'll cover each in a vacuum:

1. Advancing your own game plan. To do this, the Falco player is first trying to proactively win the game. The laser is used to gain positional advantage, which can then transition into some other aspect of winning. Examples:

- Comboing from the laser directly into an offensive set-up.
- Comboing into a laser to re-establish position mid-combo.
- Encouraging the opponent to react in a poor manner, such as jumping to another place of poor position.
- Baiting a misplaced counter-attack and then punishing it.
- And of course, to deal zero-risk ("free") damage to the opponent.

All of these are ways to advance your game plan using the positional advantage provided by the laser.

2. Hindering an opponent's game plan. To do this, the Falco player is trying to avoid an unfavorable situation in some way. The laser is used to negate the opponent's ability to establish positional advantage to prevent the opponent from being able to win. Examples:

- Basic laser camping against a slower character.
- Reducing the movement of a faster character in an attempt to control when the opponent is able to attack. This allows the Falco player to choose the position and timing of an interaction between characters.
- Holding an opponent to a position that leads to a more standard version of stage control, such as keeping the opponent trapped near an edge.
- Simply forcing the opponent to deal with your inevitability.

All of these are ways to hinder your opponent's game plan using the positional advantage provided by the laser.

Falco has no special requirements to execute the laser at any point, he can simply do it from a place of advantageous or neutral positioning. Unlike other characters, Falco always has some method to advance his own game plan or to hinder the opponent's game plan. This means that he is effectively able to negotiate the neutral game at any point by having a permanent and unrestricted advantage. The laser is also bound only by the risk and reward of its use and nothing else. While it can be risky to use, the obvious counter-argument is to just not use it in risky positions. If you are not sure if using the laser is risky in your position, simply do not use it. From there, it can only be a strict tactical advantage that is exclusive to this character alone.

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I was with you until the very last paragraph. When fast characters begin encroaching on the space of their slower opponents and force them to commit, that sounds like furthering their own gameplan(taking stage) while putting lots of pressure on their opponent(arguably forcing them to change their gameplan in response.)
Now if you meant that Falco can do this at any spacing, then what about characters with other projectiles like Fox or Doc? Their projectiles are different but also force the opponent to play the projectile-users' game even if in a different way than Falco's lasers do.

Falco cannot have a permanent advantage at neutral because of how long it takes for the laser to come out(13 frames) and the risk of getting caught during that or dealing with powershields also cause him to constantly adjust his positioning and timing of each laser. He can't simply execute the laser at neutral positions because there are far too many of those positions in which people wait for Falco to laser or start to laser before punishing him now. One example is Armada floating and waiting for Falco to shoot a hopeful laser on his landing, but he keeps floating and then hits the now-panicking Falco. Sometimes, even if the Falco waits, he can still get Fair'd if he lasers and that trade is not worth it, yet the position was in fact neutral before Falco shot that laser. I can see where you're going with this, but you need to be more specific and possibly add in that both characters should be grounded and (arguably) Falco must have established a solid positioning both on the stage and within the pace of the match to ensure safe lasering.






OH AND ALSO, a general reminder to my Falco bros: let's all stop shooting SHLs more than once if that when spacies are recovering. That edgeguard hasn't worked in forever LOL let's work on that thanks.

Umbreon said:

This is all true, I never said that laser was a panacea, nor is it a solution when you're at positional disadvantage (trapped). I mean obviously lol

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.

Well where exactly the laser is useful or not is what we should be discussing I think. I was being too literal in my interpretations for the sake of the readers haha.

Falco clearly shouldn't laser at any spacing, and IMO most falco players laser too much despite how much I talk it up. Comparisons to other projectiles are basically invalid because they don't nearly have the same amount of stage control vs the viable characters. Like Fox's jump is way better for his stage control than his laser ever was on neutral stages but fox's jump still can't compete with falco's laser. Doc pills honestly isn't even worthy of comparison.

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Have you ever watched Javi fight Falco? He likes doing lots of FHs to handle Falco's laser game. It's pretty methodical and keeps the Falco from flowing well.

And Fox's laser works differently from Falco's, but that doesn't necessarily make it way worse. As a mixup to Fox's great movement he gets a sudden burst of free damage which forces opponents into a specific way of playing(usually moving towards Fox but very cautious) and that's pretty helpful since Fox has such a strong neutral game. Yes it doesn't stop someone but instead of boosting Fox's neutral game it sort of hinders the opponent's neutral game. This isn't as strong as Falco's laser in terms of what you suggest but it's good enough to help Fox out since he already has such a strong movement advantage on every character anyway.

You're making way too many implications from my statements. I never said that laser should replace falco's standard neutral game, should be used in risky positions, or lets him ignore timing in a game based on those interactions. That's just silly. I'm saying that if you learn the nuances of what makes the laser good and when/how to use it, you are way, way better off than without it. If your opponent is hard outplaying you of course it's going to invalidate your tactic, but that doesn't mean it's bad by any means.

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kinda vague, but okay.

Specific information requires a ton of trained nuance that frankly no one in here has but you. My job is to facilitate discussion as per the request in your post. For me, that means relating something to positioning and strategical value as those are my best aspects.

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So where could we go from here? Do we talk about some situations and go over the pros and cons of lasering? Do we look at positioning and establish ways to laser based on various positionings? I'm up for discussion and taking this further. =)

database errorz

If you shoot a mid height laser, it covers any SHs as well(except maybe Sheik's?). I do agree that high lasers are great for covering bigger jumps though and that should totally be mentioned. In my method of explanation, this would fall under something that allows Falco to approach and transition into his pressure game, but laser heights is another topic that is rarely brought up anymore and more could be said about it in general. It's largely for what you said and anti-powershield trickery(which isn't too necessary right now) so you don't hear about it much haha.