Official BBR Tier List v7

Shaya · Jan 23, 2013

Every top tier character must have a higher trip rate then.

Let's not get into the Marth main 10% tripping rate curse.

bubbaking · Jan 23, 2013

Quoted from Smash Wiki:
"In casual matches, Prat Falling rarely has a significant effect on gameplay. However, this is not the case in competitive play, when Prat Falling has the potential to turn a match around. It has been cited by many players as an unnecessary addition to the game as it introduces an element of chance, as they claim Brawl less suited to tournaments as a player could win by being luckier than their opponent, despite being the worse player. Prat Falling cannot be used as part of a strategy as it is not possible to predict consistently enough."

If you're gonna complain about tripping, you're playing/spectating the wrong game.

Edit: It's also kinda janky to argue this would explain how Salem defeated multiple TOP Marths and MKs over entire sets.

Luco · Jan 23, 2013

Been away for 8 days, missed a heck load of discussion.

I assume people want ZSS to rise? :o

Grim Tuesday · Jan 23, 2013

No one has elevated tripping rates, and no one tripped more than was warranted at Apex, there was a ****-ton of running and pivoting >_>

Aerial-character mains really suck at Delfino. The stage only favours aerial characters half the time, "hurr durr imma approach all the time anyway"

PS2 is hell balanced it just isn't fun

mason out *absconds*

Espy Rose · Jan 23, 2013

PS2 is more fun than PS1. :applejack:

ぱみゅ · Jan 23, 2013

bubbaking said:
Get outta here! PS2 is garbage. The electric transformation is among one of the dumbest things in this game, the ice transformation serves no purpose other than comedic effect (and giving DDD easy CGs that lead into usmash), and why the heck do we need another ground/rock transformation? If all the stage transformed to was the flying form, I'd have no problem (although it can still encourage campy play in some instances), but alas, the stage is rotten through and through.

Treadmills are mad annoying, but if you just stall them out, Electric transformation is not a problem anymore.
Ice allows for some interesting reverse Fsmash shenanigans, making them much safer than on regular floor. heck, even trips when dashing away from the opponent can be safe.
What do you mean "why do we need another ground/rock transformation"? We don't need many similar stages, but we'd add them if there is nothing wrong with them. There is nothing wrong with the Ground phase, so...

There is nothing inherently wrong with PS2, just stuff people are not used to, and don't want to bother learning.

Tesh said:
I can understand these sentiments, but frigate is FAR less fair or balanced than PS2. I can't believe we allow frigate across the nation but ps2 is banned. Ps2 is on the same level as delfino at worst (even then it lacks the core sharking issue), but frigate is HORRIBLY random by comparison and with such a drastic change it decides matches.

I'm sorry, but that post (and consequent "discussion") was stupid.
There is no "more" or "less" fair or competitive. Stages just are what they are, theyre weren't build thinking on which kind of characters would they help or hurt.
RC and Brinstar are borderline legal on a MK-centered metagame... and apparently Delfino too, and then Frigate, Halberd, and by the end of the day we'd end up playing on 3 stages...
The point being, "how much" a stage affects the game is up to players to say, but there is no objective measure, nor where that "much" becomes "too much" to allow.

Luco said:
I assume people want ZSS to rise? :o

Apparently she WILL rise.
imo, she deserves to be one or two spots above, but we'll see what happens after the MUChart is finished.

Delta-cod · Jan 23, 2013

Espy Rose said:
Eggs, jab, usmash.

Wut. It's pretty damn impossible to reliably clank with spindash using those moves. >_>

Sinister Slush · Jan 23, 2013

That's why we just use Pivot grab instead.

Delta-cod · Jan 23, 2013

You can't grab invincible things. This is for a match taking place on YI:B, Slush.

Sinister Slush · Jan 23, 2013

I thought this was basically talking about when he releases spindash.

Delta-cod · Jan 23, 2013

I mean, in general, yeah, I'd just pivot grab it.

But that invinci-dash needs to be clanked or avoided.

Z'zgashi · Jan 24, 2013

Can we not bair it?

DMG · Jan 24, 2013

not reliably, no

Espy Rose · Jan 24, 2013

Bair doesn't work.
Seriously guys. He's charging sideB on the slope. Go to the other end of the level and throw an egg.

Egg beats the sideB all the time.
Your jab is also fast and clanks with it, and Yoshi's CQC is better.

Yoshi has no excuse to lose to Sonic's sideB. :applejack:

Tesh · Jan 24, 2013

kyokoro_pamuyo said:
Treadmills are mad annoying, but if you just stall them out, Electric transformation is not a problem anymore.
Ice allows for some interesting reverse Fsmash shenanigans, making them much safer than on regular floor. heck, even trips when dashing away from the opponent can be safe.
What do you mean "why do we need another ground/rock transformation"? We don't need many similar stages, but we'd add them if there is nothing wrong with them. There is nothing wrong with the Ground phase, so...

There is nothing inherently wrong with PS2, just stuff people are not used to, and don't want to bother learning.

I'm sorry, but that post (and consequent "discussion") was stupid.
There is no "more" or "less" fair or competitive. Stages just are what they are, theyre weren't build thinking on which kind of characters would they help or hurt.
RC and Brinstar are borderline legal on a MK-centered metagame... and apparently Delfino too, and then Frigate, Halberd, and by the end of the day we'd end up playing on 3 stages...
The point being, "how much" a stage affects the game is up to players to say, but there is no objective measure, nor where that "much" becomes "too much" to allow.

Apparently she WILL rise.
imo, she deserves to be one or two spots above, but we'll see what happens after the MUChart is finished.

My point is that as far as random occurance goes, frigate takes the cake far beyond anything we have legal or nearly legal. I can CP it, spent 3 minutes on the first transformation, then 10 seconds on the 2nd then 4 more minutes on the first transformation. This is ALOT more game changing than the possibility of spending 40ish seconds on a transformation every time, in a random order.

As far as camping out/stalling goes, its really not as bad as ps1 because it doesnt have massive "cave" structures to hide in or behind. They are all about as bad as the water transformation in ps1 (you can camp it out if you really want to, but its not overly difficult to approach patiently).

It has unique game mechanics and tests things not tested on other stages, but frigate is the only legal stage with a ledgeless edge, we only have 2 stages where sharking comes into play, only 1 stage with platformless play is constant (which really dumbs down the game imo) etc.

Delta-cod said:
Wut. It's pretty damn impossible to reliably clank with spindash using those moves. >_>

yoshi has a pretty damn good jab for that, have you ever tried?

Espy Rose said:
Bair doesn't work.
Seriously guys. He's charging sideB on the slope. Go to the other end of the level and throw an egg.

Egg beats the sideB all the time.
Your jab is also fast and clanks with it, and Yoshi's CQC is better.

Yoshi has no excuse to lose to Sonic's sideB.

guys, remember 95% of aerials wont work because they cant clash with ground moves. its a good land camping tool because of this, but it shouldn't be causing alot of trouble for you if you are already on the ground.

This is why i miss pictochat, you could invinci-dash cancel into grabs.

bubbaking · Jan 24, 2013

Don't forget that if you are forced onto the left side of frigate by the opponent (say, the opponent grabs and holds you there or DDD CGs you there), the stage can possibly kill you at any % when it flips. Likewise, if you're on the right side when it flips, you risk getting trapped under the stage. One could say, "Oh, just jump when it's going to flip." Well do you know how many chars can take advantage of that jank and get you good for that? It's just not right how that stage forces certain scenarios.

kyokoro_pamuyo said:
Treadmills are mad annoying, but if you just stall them out, Electric transformation is not a problem anymore.

Where exactly do you "stall them out"? Whoever's at center stage pretty much has control of the entire stage. If you aren't there, duking it out for control, then you're at a serious disadvantage. Being stuck dancing around on the treads is annoying and unfair.

Ice allows for some interesting reverse Fsmash shenanigans, making them much safer than on regular floor. heck, even trips when dashing away from the opponent can be safe.

This doesn't make ice any less comical, you know.

What do you mean "why do we need another ground/rock transformation"? We don't need many similar stages, but we'd add them if there is nothing wrong with them. There is nothing wrong with the Ground phase, so...

Yes, "why do we need another ground/rock transformation?" This ground phase is redundant. It serves practically the same purpose as the rock phase in PS1, and it just serves to break up the game and encourage hardcore camping from both sides for a good deal of time. Approach one side and you risk getting infinited against that wall. The only good thing about this stage is that it provides a 'break' in the action for a breather.

There is nothing inherently wrong with PS2, just stuff people are not used to, and don't want to bother learning.

Oh no, there is plenty wrong with PS2.

I'm sorry, but that post (and consequent "discussion") was stupid.
There is no "more" or "less" fair or competitive. Stages just are what they are, theyre weren't build thinking on which kind of characters would they help or hurt.

Sorry Kyokoro, but this was possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. There are PLENTY of stages that are 'more competitive' than others. The same thing goes for fairness, especially with MK, ICs, and chars that aim for timeouts on the scene. The competitive scene doesn't CARE what Sakurai thought when he built those stages. We only care about how legitimate everything is in a tournament set.

Why do we have 8 minute timers? Timers just serve to unfairly buff the chars who would rather go for timeouts. We have timers because if we didn't have them, tourneys would take way too long. If we were truly concerned with exposing every char for what he/she was, our timers would be 99 minutes long. Why do all chars have a LGL? To justify the extreme LGL placed on MK to restrict his timeout ability, but that timeout ability is only a problem because we have timers to begin with. Now with both timers and LGLs, certain timeout chars' metagames are actually buffed.

Tesh · Jan 24, 2013

Redundancy isn't a reason to get rid of a stage. Look at Melee, where almost every legal stage is just a variation of battlefield with its platform layout with various boundary and size differences.

As its been pointing out, the mound on the ground transformation is WAY less of a problem than the fire and rock ones on ps1. You CAN approach over it and have space to space. Keep in mind that SV, DF, CS, Frigate and Halberd can all encourage camping in similar ways. In a transforming stage, a patient person is always going to be willing to wait for the situation to change in his/her favor.

Treadmills, you can just hang on the ledge if you want. Ledgeguarding is fairly commited because its hard to just stand the perfect distance away from the ledge. You can also do retreating ledge getup attacks.

I'm beginning to wonder if you have ever played this stage against (or as) a competent competitive player.

In any case, I don't see ps2 coming back, but I don't see why frigate is allowed in a ruleset that bans ps2. Its a much bigger problem.

Grim Tuesday · Jan 24, 2013

Bubba missed the period where most players decided PS2 isn't that bad, apparently. I haven't heard this debate in over a year.

ぱみゅ · Jan 24, 2013

Frigate doesn't kill you if you're forced to a side to the stage.
It can kill you if you are grounded, and will if you're below the stage.
So, just jump, and just like very time you normally jump, be careful with it, don't just blindly jump out of reflex.

About PS2, what Tesh said, you stall treadmills on the ledge.

And about the "more fair" thing... I'm too exhausted atm to talk about it properly... But it's stupid to measure stages and say they are "more" or "less" fair.
Stocks and Timer are somehow similar, I think I can see why they are related to the topic, but you're taking the point way too far. Stages just are.

bubbaking · Jan 24, 2013

I used to play on PS2 with John12346 all the time, and we've had this very argument about the stage more times than we can count. It's beyond jank.

The ground transformation is a huge problem, imo, but it's fine for my character, you know. I just loved landing those wall infinites on it. That phase was a huge source of my easier KOs. Lolz, all of these stages I'm saying are dumb because they give my character stupid advantages that obviously are gonna ask you to play super campy whenever I CP you to them. However, if I personally had to compare them, I don't mind Frigate nearly as much as I mind PS2.

Besides, it's not just me. A very good portion of LI and NY believes PS2 is pretty ridiculous. Every Impact tourney I went to, it was always banned and I specifically remember Coontail referring to the stage as "garbage that should never be allowed". Don't try be ignorant and say it's just me.

Grim Tuesday · Jan 24, 2013

Campy and/or silly =/= Degenerate

Argument over, go home people

bubbaking · Jan 24, 2013

You could always, idk, just go to sleep. Not all of us can be graced with rest at this hour.

kyokoro_pamuyo said:
Frigate doesn't kill you if you're forced to a side to the stage.
It can kill you if you are grounded, and will if you're below the stage.
So, just jump, and just like very time you normally jump, be careful with it, don't just blindly jump out of reflex.

Or, you know, be CG'd there at 0 and die. A wall on the right of the 1st form for infinites, too.

Stages just are.

Thank you for your vagueness.

My point about timers was somewhat unrelated. I think I was thinking back on why our game isn't exactly "good" competitively, but it's whatever.

ぱみゅ · Jan 24, 2013

Maybe DDD is just a stage-flexible character that gets advantage on many scenarios, unlike most of the Top Tiers. Just sayin'.

bubbaking said:
You could always, idk, just go to sleep. Not all of us can be graced with rest at this hour.

Or, you know, be CG'd there at 0 and die. A wall on the right of the 1st form for infinites, too.

lol, the wall lasts for 3 seconds or so, it's not really that game-changing

Thank you for your vagueness.

I was intentionally vague, measure fairness is vague to begin with.

My point about timers was somewhat unrelated. I think I was thinking back on why our game isn't exactly "good" competitively, but it's whatever.

ok then.

bubbaking · Jan 24, 2013

The infinite lasts for "3 seconds" and then leads into a regular CG if you still want to pile on more damage. I never said it was "game-changing". It's just a strong 'CP' part of the stage. As I already said, I don't mind Frigate as much as PS2.

Edit: Btw, if there isn't a problem with all these janky stages, then what's wrong with Norfair? :troll:

Grim Tuesday · Jan 24, 2013

Hold on I'm going to find that quote I had about how bad Dedede's infinite CGs are in this game, hold on

Oh and Norfair promotes camping to an unhealthy degree in some match-ups, it depends on where you draw the line but it is at least "a league beyond" commonly accepted stages. PS2's "problems" already exist in the game, excluding it because of them is a double standard.

bubbaking · Jan 24, 2013

Yeah, they're pretty bad. I agree. Infinites are dumb.

Tesh · Jan 24, 2013

bubbaking said:
I used to play on PS2 with John12346 all the time, and we've had this very argument about the stage more times than we can count. It's beyond jank.

The ground transformation is a huge problem, imo, but it's fine for my character, you know. I just loved landing those wall infinites on it. That phase was a huge source of my easier KOs. Lolz, all of these stages I'm saying are dumb because they give my character stupid advantages that obviously are gonna ask you to play super campy whenever I CP you to them. However, if I personally had to compare them, I don't mind Frigate nearly as much as I mind PS2.

Besides, it's not just me. A very good portion of LI and NY believes PS2 is pretty ridiculous. Every Impact tourney I went to, it was always banned and I specifically remember Coontail referring to the stage as "garbage that should never be allowed". Don't try be ignorant and say it's just me.

so your new standpoint is "people agree with me, so you are wrong" Frigate gives "stupid advantages" against people who do stupid things too. so does delfino or CS. If you are going to tell me that its harder to approach of a BF height rock as opposed to the rock mountain on ps1, i dont know what to tell you. you arent even living in the same world.

Supermodel From Paris · Jan 24, 2013

I hate PS2 because its sole purpose is to give people a reason to argue in favor of a "quirky" stage to appear above us plebeians that enjoy stages that don't actively try to kill us

Grim Tuesday · Jan 24, 2013

PS2 is actively trying to kill you? Pick up the controller lol

anyway the DDD infinite thing, taken from my thread

King Dedede is the main "offender" whenever walls are brought up for discussion, so lets take a look at exactly who he can infinite:

Marth, Peach, Diddy Kong, Toon Link, Ice Climbers, Pit, Lucas, Ness, Sonic, Luigi, Mario, Ivysaur, Lucario, Wolf, Link, Captain Falcon, Ike, R.O.B, Wario, Yoshi, Samus, Ganondorf, Charizard, King Dedede, Snake, Donkey Kong and Bowser.

For starters, we can cut Dedede from that list as the infinite can only occur during the mirror match, which is even by default. Not to mention the ledge infinite that Dedede already has on himself.

On top of that, we can cut Lucas, Mario, Ivysaur, Link, Captain Falcon, Samus, Ganondorf and Bowser; characters who are all unviable regardless of the infinite and lose badly to Dedede without it. Donkey Kong is infinited by King Dedede either way, so he can be ignored, and Charizard can just change into Squirtle. Ice Climbers can't be infinited when there are two of them, and Popo is unviable, so there is another character which needs no support.

This leaves us with Marth, Peach, Diddy Kong, Toon Link, Pit, Ness, Sonic, Luigi, Lucario, Wolf, Ike, R.O.B, Wario, Yoshi and Snake to tackle individually.

Peach and Toon Link are very good at avoiding Dedede's grab due to the nature of their air games, mobility and projectiles, as evidenced by their decent match-ups against Dedede on common stages. These traits are amplified by Onett's [PS2's] stage design.

Wario and Yoshi's aerial mobility let them escape the grab, a strategy which, similar to Peach/Toon Link, is improved by Onett's layout. R.O.B. can do this similarly, but to a lesser extent.

Snake's grenades and Diddy Kong's bananas give them a "get out of infinites" free-card.

Marth's range and the stage's layout help him deal with King Dedede, as this match between Raziek and billybeegood shows.

Pit can safely force Dedede's approach with arrows.

Ness, Luigi, Sonic, Ike, Wolf and Lucario are the only characters left, and Dedede solidly beats Ness and Luigi even without the infinite.

Ike, Wolf, Sonic and Lucario are all affected by Dedede's wall infinite on this stage, reducing competitive depth and lowering the skill ceiling in those individual match-ups. However, these 4 match-ups should not impact the stage's competitive merit very much.

The reason I treat wall infinites differently to walk-off infinites in this regard is because wall infinites restrict King Dedede to a single area where landing the grab will ensure a stock loss. Most walk-off stages give King Dedede players room to pressure their opponents AND punish their mistakes with an death-grab. This is not always the case, however; Shadow Moses Island's walls are practically the same as its walk-offs, for example.

bubbaking · Jan 24, 2013

Tesh said:
so your new standpoint is "people agree with me, so you are wrong"

Tesh, I thought it was pretty obvious that wasn't directed at you.

Frigate gives "stupid advantages" against people who do stupid things too. so does delfino or CS. If you are going to tell me that its harder to approach of a BF height rock as opposed to the rock mountain on ps1, i dont know what to tell you. you arent even living in the same world.

I never said it was harder, lolz! Whoever said that? There's very little that's harder than trying to approach around the rock mountain in PS1. That doesn't change the redundancy of the earth mountain in PS2 or the fact that it promotes camping because of severe punishments.

ぱみゅ · Jan 24, 2013

Edit: Btw, if there isn't a problem with all these janky stages, then what's wrong with Norfair?

Norfair and PS2 share the same competitive problem: Unpopularity.

Tesh · Jan 24, 2013

bubbaking said:
Tesh, I thought it was pretty obvious that wasn't directed at you.

I never said it was harder, lolz! Whoever said that? There's very little that's harder than trying to approach around the rock mountain in PS1. That doesn't change the redundancy of the earth mountain in PS2 or the fact that it promotes camping because of severe punishments.

Again, Melee has like 10 version of battlefield. Whats wrong with redundancy? Its only redundant in the vague way halberd and delfino are redundant due to sharking. Thats ONE similarity.

kyokoro_pamuyo said:
Norfair and PS2 share the same competitive problem: Unpopularity.

Actually Norfair has a SEVERE problem with the layout. Its not saved by the hazards because the hazards are too easy to avoid/powershield. I GUARANTEE you any competent Sonic/Wario/MK/ZSS could time out most of the cast here with no problem.

Supermodel From Paris · Jan 24, 2013

Grim Tuesday said:
PS2 is actively trying to kill you? Pick up the controller lol

I wish I could be as enlightened as you so that I could see a stage that is constantly trying to expunge me as being a totally valid stage, but I can't because I'm too busy sliding all over the place.

Espy Rose · Jan 24, 2013

Seriously. Pick up the controller. :applejack:

| Big D | · Jan 24, 2013

Don't you tell me what to do.

ぱみゅ · Jan 24, 2013

Tesh said:
Actually Norfair has a SEVERE problem with the layout. Its not saved by the hazards because the hazards are too easy to avoid/powershield. I GUARANTEE you any competent Sonic/Wario/MK/ZSS could time out most of the cast here with no problem.

I'm not saying it was its only problem, but it is its main one.

I'd love to have Norfair avaliable for certain matchups, like DDD-Diddy, but yes, it has some major camping issues.

though.... if a Stagelist has Norfair, I'd bet it has several stagebans (amd MK banned), so, if you know your opponent has a character that can camp well there, you can always ban the stage.... or learn another character....
just sayin'.....

Z'zgashi · Jan 24, 2013

Espy Rose said:
Bair doesn't work.
Seriously guys. He's charging sideB on the slope. Go to the other end of the level and throw an egg.

Except, you know, getting to the other end of the level before Sonic can be difficult cuz, you know, Sonic is fast. And if we DO get there, its not like Sonic cant cancel his spin dash with a jump or something. And say Sonic knows or guesses were going to run and throw an egg, then Sonic can use his speed to close the gap.

Egg beats the sideB all the time.
Your jab is also fast and clanks with it, and Yoshi's CQC is better.

In theory, yes, but jabbing Sonics speed on reaction, and landing an egg on such a sppedy target is REALLY hard to do consistently, especially against a Sonic proficient at making reads and using mixups.

Yoshi has no excuse to lose to Sonic's sideB.

Id say having a god awful shield is a good reason. Theres a reason its an even match up, and youve always agreed it is even. So if you think its an even match up with normal spin dash, then you say on a stage that his spin dash is invincible that Yoshi can handle the MU with just 3 moves... Doesnt that sound like an advantageous match up for Yoshi? Either this match up is in Yoshis favor, or youre really underrating Sonic.

Also, PS2 is a great stage, dont know why people dont like it outside of unfamiliarity.

EDIT: I personally love Norfair, but I wouldnt put it on the same level as PS2 due to it having way too many ledges. Stilla great stage that I wish more people would make legal though.

Grim Tuesday · Jan 24, 2013

I don't like it because it's a ****ing gay *** piece of **** stage

It should still be legal though lol

Z'zgashi · Jan 24, 2013

>plays jiggs
>doesnt like norfair

wut

Tesh · Jan 24, 2013

kyokoro_pamuyo said:
I'm not saying it was its only problem, but it is its main one.

I'd love to have Norfair avaliable for certain matchups, like DDD-Diddy, but yes, it has some major camping issues.

though.... if a Stagelist has Norfair, I'd bet it has several stagebans (amd MK banned), so, if you know your opponent has a character that can camp well there, you can always ban the stage.... or learn another character....
just sayin'.....

stage bans are not a solution to a stage that causes a problem in EVERY matchup. its blatant circle camping. any non ditto matchup will see this problem

Official BBR Tier List v7

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