counter picks againts the counters

Ganondorf only haves 3 counters and that is the space animals and sheik. every other matchup is either equal or in his favor according to phanna's matchup chart and my expirience. so the 3 über ganon counters are:

Sheik: i have had the least problem with her of the 3, mainly because i live in Iceland and we have PAL version hence no chaingrabbing by her(it )and ganon can chaingrab her, but isnt rainbow cruise the thing against her?

Falco: he is probably the toughest of the because of the lazers, they hurt ganons game more than any other character is capable of. but if i manage to get a few hits in then its often over for him either Uair edgeguard or he just doesnt reach the stage because of his crappy recovery. I still don't know what to do against him,but i find battlefield an ok stage against him, maybe rainbow cruise

Fox: he is pretty hard because of his awesome speed and shine. really ganon doesnt really have a chance against a good fox if he l-cancels all of his aerials to a shine to grab or upsmash or just really plays smart. but its the same for him as falco, a few hits and he is dead if ganon edgeguards properly but i really dont know any good counter pick against him. DL 64?, battlefield?

My question is, is ganon capable of beating those counters if the players are on pretty equal skill level or do i have to switch to someone else? I have a decent sheik and marth to switch to but i really have no other options.

What do you think?

My question is, is ganon capable of beating those counters if the players are on pretty equal skill level or do i have to switch to someone else?

Thanks for making this thread, I was just about to make a thread asking if Ganon has a chance against those characters. You summed up my question perfectly.

Fox isn't really a problem for me, but what does Ganon have to do against Falco and Sheik to succeed? Thankfully for me, there is a shortage of Sheik and Fox players in my region but nearly everybody plays Falco, and they're **** near impossible to beat. Heck, I even choose Falco to counter Ganon players, and my Falco isn't even that great but I still win.

Ganon only has one counter, and that is sheik for many reasons that I dont feel like naming. Both Falco and Fox and VERY winnable matchups for ganon. Winnable, but difficult. In other words, you have to know what your doing to beat these characters.
Falco-I find falco much easier than fox due to his relativly more linear playing style. Falco is extremely fun and simple once you get the hang of it.Basically this matchup is based on grabs on ganons part. Grabs are the ONLY way you can win this matchup. Out of grabs techase with dairs, fairs and your dsmash.Techasing is fundamental. Most people dont know this, but you can chaingrab falco. Usually what I do is double grab falco and most of the time this confuses their teching and they tech in place, punish this with a dair immediatly.Also, you should learn how to powersheild. I can powersheild about 25% of lasers which REALLY annoys and throws of falco's game when I do it.
Hope this helps, all the info. that I mentioned works because I play one of the best falco's in the south, Lambchops, alot.
Fox-This is alot harder for me because he is so fast and manuverable. I dont know much about this one but I recommend the same basic strategy that is used against falco, and retreating fairs and bairs, which helps keep fox at bay.
Thats all I got, good luck with these matchups, they are hard but you can do it.

I consider Fox vs Ganon to be even. The only time that I found Fox truly annoying is when he runs and spams. I've only had that happen once, and I was catching on by the end. Otherwise it's basically grabs, spaced f -airs, stomp combos, and edge-gaurding. Want a counter-stage? Try DL64: FOx is still to easy to edge-guard and you're only being KO'd by u-throw-> u-air and the occasional shine-spike.

Falco - get him to stop the lasers somehow (powershield, get in his face, etc) and the match is a bit easier. You kinda have to stick at a very specific range here: too far -> lasers, and too close -> shine. Find that middle range (and somehow stick in it the whole match), and it's winnable. I actually preferred being edge-gaurded by Falco just because his attacks are so much easier to ledge-tech than Fox's.

Sheik - Contrary to popular belief, she does have some lag. The trick is not to be in shield-stun when she does have it. She's actually combo'd pretty easily once you get your hands on her (u-air FTW). Just space (as usual) when you attack her shield, and when on the defensive (getting grabbed or edge-guarded) always change up your options. Switch up your DI to make chain grabbing a guessing game, and look at all of your options for recovery (ledge, platforms, behind sheik, etc). Avoid needles (they don't have lag).

I agree with Linguini for the most part. IMO for his difficult matchups it's like:

Sheik (NTSC, just about everywhere )
.
.
.
Fox (on large more open campable stages)
Marth (on FD if they do almost nothing but camp for grabs)
.
.
Falco (not quite as stage influenced as the others)
Captain Falcon (on FD)
.
Fox (elsewhere)

As for Falco, get good at shieldgrabbing his shine as his jump is slower than Fox's, and d-airing from shield behind you if they cross over your shield. The more you've been hit by the shine the easier it will be to shieldgrab as the shieldstun will be reduced (same with any move). As already said, being able to tech chase well is very important. Efficient edgeguarding is also a must. Once he's off he shouldn't be making it back. Downward angled f-tilt is the best for covering the edge imo. D-tilt works too but is a tiny bit slower and has more wind down lag in case they do something differently, while the f-tilt gets the job done if it connects while being more flexible and easier to use by reacting to seeing a forward b starting up. While I can powershield pretty reliably with Ganon as long as I have a mostly undamaged shield (though not quite as much as my 95+% or so when using Peach, lol) I only really use it when they are more at a laser approach range than laser campable range. Basically as long as I can get ontop of them immediately after it. Otherwise I just jump over them to get more into range. Abuse u-airs when they are above or diagonal from you, which will generally happen most with platforms.

as I said, I find sheik much easier than fox and falco in PAL. she is much harder to deal with in NTSC.

But against Falco, how are you gonna grab him in the first place? you cant really just grab him out of nowhere like falcon can due to ganons poor running speed and shieldgrab is almost impossible. If the falco plays smart you cant really do anything example: you try to fair him, he just shoots a lazer and cancels it. the stomp is even harder to land, but if you land it then its often his doom ex: you land stomp to forward b to another stomp, tech chase with a fair to Uair edgeguard or sometimes you just need to edgehog. And the chaingrab, MAN! thats hard to do. I have read the CG guide by magus and yeah sure he can CG falco but you have to have godlike reflexes and read his DI almost instanteously. but yeah like you say, you can most of the time tech chase with a fair or something. But i win nearly all the falco's i play here in Iceland because they are not that good, but I am most likely going to RoS4 and there i will need all advice i can get. And i was also asking for advice about a good counter stage against Fox and Falco. I usually do fine on FD against falco like you say is a good stage against falco but if i get ***** there i might need to pick another stage for him.

Ok i think we have falco and sheik covered but i need some more advice for fox

And also thanks for the reply's

Fighting Falco totally sucks...

A follow up question for Magus: When you say "Falco, get good at shieldgrabbing his shine as his jump is slower than Fox's"... does that really work? Because it seems like the Falco I play against will always get his pillaring dair off on me before I can connect a grab, or he will doubleshine and get me when I try to grab...

Ganon sucks. He's the worst char in the game. He gets countered by everyone.

ganon vs fox bad matchup.
ganon v marth bad matchup.
ganon v sheik bad matchup.
ganon v falco bad matchup.
ganon v c. falcon bad matchup.

conclusion, ganon sucks.

Frozenserpent said:

Ganon sucks. He's the worst char in the game. He gets countered by everyone.

ganon vs fox bad matchup.
ganon v marth bad matchup.
ganon v sheik bad matchup.
ganon v falco bad matchup.
ganon v c. falcon bad matchup.

conclusion, ganon sucks.

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apparently there only 6 chars in melee : fox, falco, marth, sheik, falcon, and ganon lol

Every other charactor in the game must be a mindgame or a glitch of some sort

"Everyone" = your opponent 95% of the time when you go to a tourney.

Reese said:

apparently there only 6 chars in melee : fox, falco, marth, sheik, falcon, and ganon lol

Every other charactor in the game must be a mindgame or a glitch of some sort

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Haha, let me change that, then. Everyone but Pichu, which it is pretty even, although I suspect Pichu has the advantage.

Against Laser happy falcos, if you can cunningly use your jumps and airdodges to avoid the lasers, he really becomes much less difficult.

Take Fox to either DL64 or Yoshi's Story (Fair will get you low % KO's)

Get a stage with platforms against a Falco.

Frozenserpent said:

Ganon sucks. He's the worst char in the game. He gets countered by everyone.

ganon vs fox bad matchup.
ganon v marth bad matchup.
ganon v sheik bad matchup.
ganon v falco bad matchup.
ganon v c. falcon bad matchup.

conclusion, ganon sucks.

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Then get the **** out of the ganon boards.
Please .

Yang said:

When you say "Falco, get good at shieldgrabbing his shine as his jump is slower than Fox's"... does that really work? Because it seems like the Falco I play against will always get his pillaring dair off on me before I can connect a grab, or he will doubleshine and get me when I try to grab...

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As long as you grab quick enough they won't be able to even get a d-air off on you by starting it the moment they leave the ground going upwards (which would leave them easily punished after the d-air). If they shorthop into a d-air afterwards they will get grabbed, and if they full jump out of the shine they will get grabbed if they jump a frame too slow or they've hit you with a shine recently (giving it less hitlag and shieldstun).

JC shines are able to hit you though if you simply try to shieldgrab the shine normally. Holding away helps here in two ways (I forgot to mention this before). One is if you do happen to get hit by a shine, they'll be very unlikely to get a good combo off of it in that situation. 2nd is that by holding away, your shield ASDI will almost always put you out of range of any JC shines they may do after the 1st (this only applies to Falco because his shine has crap range), and you'll grab them.

If done right, it pretty much leaves them with full jumping out of their shine and WDing away out of the shine or they get grabbed (unless I'm forgetting something). If they full jump and your grab misses, you are able to shield/roll/whatever before they can come back down. If they WD away they can get a dash attack or grab on you in time. If they angle the WD just right so the grab barely misses they might have time to get a n-air or f-smash off before you can shield. EDIT: I was forgetting about JC grab out of shine which can come out before your grab and be in range.

Of course you don't want to do it everytime either. If you don't shieldgrab the shine and they full jump, you are in a decent position since you can full jump u-air out of shield to beat or at least trade hits with a d-air if they come back down, and still stay underneath/on them if they double jump out of the way. If they land on a platform throw more u-airs at them if you're underneath the platform.

Linguini said:

Then get the **** out of the ganon boards.
Please .

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But i main ganon. . And in case you were wondering, ganon v. ganon is a bad matchup. don't ask me how.

Yeah. ganon vs ganon is actually the matchup I find hardest.
then Sheik, Falco, Fox..

If you find ganon dittos hard then the ganon you are playing is just plain better at ganon dittos.

Stormblast said:

If you find ganon dittos hard then the ganon you are playing is just plain better at ganon dittos.

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Haha... I wasn't completely serious, and way to state the obvious. .

lol, I was serious x)
There aint many ganons around here, so I find it quite hard when i first meet one

I have not much trouble taking out sheik or fox in FD but falco is completely different. Those lasers make it so hard to get an attack in edgewise, I don't know if you've ever played a falco that's even a tiny bit aggressive but it sucks with those god ****ed blasters. I like to choose pokemon stadium or DL64 against falco because ganon works well on platforms for me, ledgedashing and whatnot to speed up your game and get an opportunity to dair him and get in a low% f/b air and edgeguard for the kill. once you get around the lasers and land a few good hits falco isn't that hard, but getting to hit him is the hard part. the best I can say is get away from the lasers in any way possible. and also, DON'T GET SHINED. Shine by falco=a pillar'd ganon, that's never fun.


ALSO on the ganon dittos thing:
I usually have a crap time with dittos, but I own in ganon dittos. even against a ganon much much better than I am I still do well, but that might just be me.

I find falco to be much easier than fox and sheik. The lasers aren't too bad after a while. In fact, I'm looking into FD as a counterpick against falco.

Yes, it's annoying that when falco shines you, you find yourself getting comboed to a high percentage. You can DI from the shine so you don't get comboed as easily, but that doesn't mean you throw the pressure off of you. And btw, pillaring refers specifically to against shields. You can't pillar someone who's not shielding. It's just called comboing. And pillaring is annoying because i have a habit of rolling with control stick, which doesn't work for me most of the time because of shield stun, and i have to use c-stick to roll.

But once you get control... only a few moves are enough to kill falco. Personally, I don't like meteoring too much, because it's easily techable/meteor-cancellable. Reverse uair is very nice, as is an angled down ftilt when they try to sweetspot. And ganon has misleading hitboxes.... the range on his fair and bair is more than what it seems.

I like to Dtilt a phantoming fox or falco and then hit them with a fair when they float helplessly in front of me, and when they firefox to sweetspot, a downward ftilt is nice, if they don't sweetspot with it I just space a fair. the fair works miracles on a falco.

Frozenserpent said:

Haha... I wasn't completely serious, and way to state the obvious. .

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Ok lol, hard to detect sarcasm on paper :/

but yeah, you have all made good points. thx for the replys guys

to win againt good falcos with grabs is almost impossible
no shieldgrab cuz of shine

yes shieldgrab cuz of shine

Isn't it true that if Falco d-airs too early you can shield-grab him? Also, isn't Falco's pillaring a tad slower than Fox's, and also breakable (with grabs) with good timing? I know I've shield-grabbed Falcos plenty of times. I find that alternating your approaches between short hops and full jumps-> double jumps can throw off his laser defense a bit. Aggressive edge-guarding (dropzone -> u-air) works wonders on gimping the bird too.

I'm more of a YS/BF guy with Falcos. DL works okay too, FD is seeming more playable to me as well (yay combos).
PS hasn't liked me much though, and I'm not sure about FD.

There's a couple frames that falco's pillaring is grabbable out of, even if they do it perfectly. Of course, not everyone does it perfectly, so that gives you more options to shieldgrab.

What bugs me, though, is that when i try to roll away, i get shined and then comboed. .

Generally speaking, if you're going to roll, don't do it between the d-air and shine. Same with shieldgrabbing unless the d-air hits high up on your shield and they haven't reached like top speed on their fastfall.

Oh yeah and if you do try to shieldgrab, something that helps to get the grab out the 1st moment possible is to hit A while shielding then immediately after hit Z. Kind of like JC grabbing except A instead of jump. That way you get a small room for error to time it perfectly. Again, do it while holding away if you do.

This thread has been very useful or me. I play someone who has a pretty good falco and I sometimes do good aginst him when I play ganon but I mostly get combo'd to hell the whole time because I dont know when to grab him. But now I do because of this awesome thread.

-Magus, your sig makes your posts hard to read..... if this was the purpose then well played ,sir.
pretty random too....