Stage Counterpick/Ban list UPDATED! updates ban list later =)

TheManaLord · Jun 19, 2007

depends on the tournament. there are ppl dedicated to it and love it and there are those who absolutely hate it (like me, that stage shouldnt even exist it's total garbage for the tourny scene).

but if it is then no it's bad for falcon, waveshine killz and cargo killz will **** ya.

RapeFalcon · Jun 19, 2007

What stages are bad against falco other than FoD ?

Hax · Jun 19, 2007

onett is legal in most tourneys and no it sucks for falcon. walls are bad for falcon and gta cars don't help.

bad stages against falco are FoD and FD. green greens sucks, mute city is bad, jungle japes is REALLY bad..

RapeFalcon · Jun 19, 2007

Hax said:
bad stages against falco are FoD and FD. green greens sucks, mute city is bad, jungle japes is REALLY bad..

IMO FD isn't such a bad stage against falco because I hore Techchasing and been practicing on my raptor boosts which most of the time lead to u-smash or knees unless DI'd properly. And my approaches aren't bad either.

But on the other hand I never played a falco that can pillar perfectly and know when I DI'd right or wrong and switch up if I DI'd right.

I would like to know from anyone who's played good Falco's why FD is bad for falcon vs falco

Hax · Jun 19, 2007

RapeFalcon said:
IMO FD isn't such a bad stage against falco because I hore Techchasing and been practicing on my raptor boosts which most of the time lead to u-smash or knees unless DI'd properly. And my approaches aren't bad either.

But on the other hand I never played a falco that can pillar perfectly and know when I DI'd right or wrong and switch up if I DI'd right.

I would like to know from anyone who's played good Falco's why FD is bad for falcon vs falco

lol, that's the problem. shl's stop you in your tracks and he can retreat with them, too. pillaring is extra-easy for him as well while you get some easier techchasing.. good luck grabbing, though. -.-;

RapeFalcon · Jun 20, 2007

Hax said:
lol, that's the problem. shl's stop you in your tracks and he can retreat with them, too. pillaring is extra-easy for him as well while you get some easier techchasing.. good luck grabbing, though. -.-;

Its not that they dont shl, (every falco does) its that some just don't pillar good meaning that if I DI most of the time they won't react or switch up to a different move to still catch me in a combo or techchase at least from their pillaring.

(Its hard for me to explain

)

TheManaLord · Jun 20, 2007

just pick whatever stage u **** on the most. for a long time brinstar was considered one of DK's bad stages but Bum went and changed history its now one of the best.

just do whatever feels best to u.

Hax · Jun 20, 2007

brinstar is great for characters who dont excel at killing at the bottom of the screen.

TC -> well yeah, if you played falcos who DI-chased well then you'd see how gay FD is. platform-techchasing is extremely rewarding; lets you knee easily. other characters don't have moves like stomp to techchase on platforms with, you have to take advantage of this.

i could say falcon is the best character when it comes to abusing platforms, marth is great but falcon has a LOT of variety.

CPTNfalcon · Jun 20, 2007

Hax said:
brinstar is great for characters who dont excel at killing at the bottom of the screen.

so wich stage would be better to play falco brinstar or dk64

btw here's a preety good example of how falcon should play aganst a falco in FD
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ayp7DdTZwc
Dont let tha lasers phase u just hit them with something that makes the tech and **** accordingly

Hax · Jun 20, 2007

CPTNfalcon said:
so wich stage would be better to play falco brinstar or dk64

btw here's a preety good example of how falcon should play aganst a falco in FD
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ayp7DdTZwc
Dont let tha lasers phase u just hit them with something that makes the tech and **** accordingly

that video doesn't really prove anything; darkrain is quite a few milestones ahead than shiz skillwise (no offense). against falco, probably brinstar. problem is, falco can sort-of pillar you with the acid; as in keep spiking you down. the great thing about dk64 is that you can dodge shl's if you wait in the middle; but yeah brinstar's acid helps nonetheless.

CPTNfalcon · Jun 20, 2007

I See what ur sayin bout brinstar and dk64, but i've seen PC own on dk64 mainly because hes realy good at edge guarding on that stage and he did pull off some nasty pillaring on dk64. But I haven't played on brinstar enough to notice falco can pillar cuz of the lava.

yeah ur right Hax, I have been watching quite a lot of darkrain vids after I posted and noticed that he knew where his opponent was going (he's a tech-chasing genius :dizzy:

), not taking anyting away from shiz but he just wasn't ready for darkrain.

Also I don't know how he does it but he ***** in falcon dittos mainly on big levels.

what levels are good for a falcon ditto? (I never thought of that :laugh:

)

BoomStick · Jun 20, 2007

If you go DK64 against peach, I'm gonna rofl you...her recovery becomes even more **** because of the ability to go through the stage, and ALWAYS have the option for the barrel, also, She will gay your recovery So much harder, because you will lose the ability to tech her dsmash, on the ledge, and if you decide to go under the stage..congrats on your huge lag after you land...that's a poor choice, and I wouldn't give advice w/o reasoning next time...

RapeFalcon · Jun 20, 2007

BoomStick said:
If you go DK64 against peach, I'm gonna rofl you...her recovery becomes even more **** because of the ability to go through the stage, and ALWAYS have the option for the barrel, also, She will gay your recovery So much harder, because you will lose the ability to tech her dsmash, on the ledge, and if you decide to go under the stage..congrats on your huge lag after you land...that's a poor choice, and I wouldn't give advice w/o reasoning next time...

I think they were talking about vs Falco not peach. Against peach i'll go with Yoshi's and Rainbow cruise, though i'm not sure about pokefloats.

But yea dk64 vs peach is a bad choice depending on how good ur mindgames are and the way the platforms are set up.

Fonz · Jun 20, 2007

You'd take a peach to brinstar? Falcon's best stages are neutrals minus FoD and FD for a few characters. Really isn't much reason to counterpick odd stages.

I assume you don't have stadium listed for a single matchup cause you're counting on them banning it?

CPTNfalcon · Jun 21, 2007

Fonz said:
You'd take a peach to brinstar? Falcon's best stages are neutrals minus FoD and FD for a few characters. Really isn't much reason to counterpick odd stages.

I assume you don't have stadium listed for a single matchup cause you're counting on them banning it?

. . . . K I don't think anyone said that. . .

RapeFalcon · Jun 21, 2007

Which NEUTRAL stages are best against fox, falco, marth, sheik, peach, ICs, and Samus.

Hax · Jun 21, 2007

BoomStick said:
If you go DK64 against peach, I'm gonna rofl you...her recovery becomes even more **** because of the ability to go through the stage, and ALWAYS have the option for the barrel, also, She will gay your recovery So much harder, because you will lose the ability to tech her dsmash, on the ledge, and if you decide to go under the stage..congrats on your huge lag after you land...that's a poor choice, and I wouldn't give advice w/o reasoning next time...

lol since when is peach's recovery **** against falcon? ledgehop uairs **** her.

and you're not supposed to recover at the bottom of the stage; if you up-b onto either of the 2 platforms on top peach can't punish you because of her laggy 2nd jump. peach ***** your recovery on every other stage; plus a smart peach doesn't even dsmash falcons on the ledge for kills; they float-cancel dair into nair which can't be teched as far as i know. dk64 offers you the best recovery against peach, imo.

peach hits DK64's horizontal blast line early; i've rarely edgeguarded a peach on dk64 because the platform layout is so great for kneeing her while she's off the stage.

also, i'd probably take peach to yoshi's over DK64; knees at 50% kill there and the cloud is nice.

dk64 and brinstar's ledge is also great since you can **** crouch-cancellers up with a uair (fall off the ledge, jump and uair while coming through the stage).

Fonz said:
You'd take a peach to brinstar? Falcon's best stages are neutrals minus FoD and FD for a few characters. Really isn't much reason to counterpick odd stages.

I assume you don't have stadium listed for a single matchup cause you're counting on them banning it?

i would take a peach to brinstar; it'd probably be my counterpick after yoshi's and battlefield (i forgot to add the latter). the platform layout is similar and the stage is small horizontally. lava doesn't help her at all while it offers you another recovery option. also if you don't break the pillars holding down the 2 platforms on the left/right, peach can't turnip you when you're off the stage, which is sort of a plus.

i consider pokemon stadium average against all characters; i don't really find it to be amazing against anyone nor bad against anyone with falcon. i could say it's a last-resort counterpick against any character but my favorite falcon stages are still those that offer recovery options; namely yoshi's/dk64/brinstar, and i'm getting used to rainbow cruise and floats, as well.

RapeFalcon said:
Which NEUTRAL stages are best against fox, falco, marth, sheik, peach, ICs, and Samus.

fox -> DK64, dreamland
falco -> DK64, pokemon stadium
marth -> DK64, FD
sheik -> DK64, yoshi's, battlefield
ICs -> none, this is entirely a skill matchup which depends on how well you avoid grabs and edgeguard them
samus -> DK64, yoshi's

i really do consider DK64 to be good against everyone; gives falcon a lot of options.

TheManaLord · Jun 21, 2007

whoa wassup wit dis topic all over a sudden.

peach is a unique char, but here's solid advice: always take super floaties to yoshi's story. you will just completely **** them with low % combos and early deaths due to small stage.

Fonz · Jun 21, 2007

CPTNfalcon said:
. . . . K I don't think anyone said that. . .

Read the first page =P

Hax said:
i would take a peach to brinstar; it'd probably be my counterpick after yoshi's and battlefield (i forgot to add the latter). the platform layout is similar and the stage is small horizontally. lava doesn't help her at all while it offers you another recovery option. also if you don't break the pillars holding down the 2 platforms on the left/right, peach can't turnip you when you're off the stage, which is sort of a plus.

i consider pokemon stadium average against all characters; i don't really find it to be amazing against anyone nor bad against anyone with falcon. i could say it's a last-resort counterpick against any character but my favorite falcon stages are still those that offer recovery options; namely yoshi's/dk64/brinstar, and i'm getting used to rainbow cruise and floats, as well.

Brinstar is a peach counterstage against pretty much everyone. The lava isn't important for helping peach recover generally, but it is good for comboing fastfallers with. Even if you use the lava to recover it is painfully easy for peach to float out there and slap you. The egg like things in the middle change L-canceling timing by adding more hit stun. Peach doesn't have to deal with this since she float cancels, you do. It also has fairly wide sides, bad for falcon killing peach. The side thingies blocking turnips? Peach can just walk to the very edge and chuck them, she doesn't need to fall off or anything. You may be good on brinstar and that's fine, I know lots of people who pick stages their character isn't best at, just because they know the stage well. That's fine but it just isn't a great cfalcon stage.

Stadium is just great for cfalcon in almost every matchup. You'll be hard pressed to find many cfalcon pros that don't like stadium I think. I get taken to stadium pretty consistently with both peach and falco.

Hax · Jun 21, 2007

Fonz said:
Read the first page =P

Brinstar is a peach counterstage against pretty much everyone. The lava isn't important for helping peach recover generally, but it is good for comboing fastfallers with. Even if you use the lava to recover it is painfully easy for peach to float out there and slap you. The egg like things in the middle change L-canceling timing by adding more hit stun. Peach doesn't have to deal with this since she float cancels, you do. It also has fairly wide sides, bad for falcon killing peach. The side thingies blocking turnips? Peach can just walk to the very edge and chuck them, she doesn't need to fall off or anything. You may be good on brinstar and that's fine, I know lots of people who pick stages their character isn't best at, just because they know the stage well. That's fine but it just isn't a great cfalcon stage.

Stadium is just great for cfalcon in almost every matchup. You'll be hard pressed to find many cfalcon pros that don't like stadium I think. I get taken to stadium pretty consistently with both peach and falco.

then howcome pc's peach lost to bum on brinstar? dk should get ***** by dsmash, turnip spam, and ****ed up l-cancels just as bad as falcon should, except falcon has even more potential to combo peach. lava does help falcon; at high % you can bounce off of it and upb onto one of the platforms so she can't dsmash edgeguard you. and no, the blast lines aren't far away at all. it's falcon ffs, if knee can kill on dreamland it can kill on brinstar lol.

also the whole 'bubbles mess up l-cancelling' argument isn't really valid.. you can't really say a stage is bad just because something is hard to do on it. with practice l-cancelling on brinstar is just as easy as on other stages.. you just have to look out for how many bubbles have been destroyed; i mean come on that's like saying moonwalking is bad because it's hard to do. >_>

and if you break the things holding down the 2 platforms, you can hold down your tech + directional buttons when you're hit at high % so you do a rolling tech on the platforms whenever youre hit which can make falcon very hard to kill. (this works very well because the platforms are slanted so you're very likely to go through them when you're hit)

Fonz · Jun 21, 2007

Citing 1 match means nothing. From the vids I've seen Bum counterpicks brinstar vs everyone, it's a stage he has lots of practice on. While PC's peach is great, it's not his main. In fact it's the only match in the set that he used peach? Why? Probably because it's such a great peach stage. Just having a stage benefitting a character isn't enough to win though.

Sure you can practice with the eggs to prevent l-canceling troubles, but it's the same as the IC double shield and I don't anyone questions that that is an asset of theirs. You can work around it but anything that makes your opponent's job harder is a good thing. That's what most stage advantages are, making your opponent's job harder. They're not strategies with no possible work arounds for the most part, if you have a wide enough gap in skill level no stage/matchup will help you.

No ledge to tech is a big deal. It makes edge guarding much easier. If you land on the top platforms you're just gonna get a nair or fair rinse and repeat, not much better.

You can take peaches to mute city for home field advantage and road->knee combos if you like. That doesn't change the fact that you're giving yourself an uphill battle for no reason.

For an extreme counterpick I like Onett as falcon vs peach actually, not something I'd do unless I knew they didn't have a space animal though. Not legal at all tourneys, but the edgeguard nullifying is nice if it is on.

Hax · Jun 21, 2007

Fonz said:
Citing 1 match means nothing. From the vids I've seen Bum counterpicks brinstar vs everyone, it's a stage he has lots of practice on. While PC's peach is great, it's not his main. In fact it's the only match in the set that he used peach? Why? Probably because it's such a great peach stage. Just having a stage benefitting a character isn't enough to win though.

Sure you can practice with the eggs to prevent l-canceling troubles, but it's the same as the IC double shield and I don't anyone questions that that is an asset of theirs. You can work around it but anything that makes your opponent's job harder is a good thing. That's what most stage advantages are, making your opponent's job harder. They're not strategies with no possible work arounds for the most part, if you have a wide enough gap in skill level no stage/matchup will help you.

No ledge to tech is a big deal. It makes edge guarding much easier. If you land on the top platforms you're just gonna get a nair or fair rinse and repeat, not much better.

You can take peaches to mute city for home field advantage and road->knee combos if you like. That doesn't change the fact that you're giving yourself an uphill battle for no reason.

For an extreme counterpick I like Onett as falcon vs peach actually, not something I'd do unless I knew they didn't have a space animal though. Not legal at all tourneys, but the edgeguard nullifying is nice if it is on.

you're not considering the fact that edgeguarding peach (with falcon) is a cakewalk on brinstar. a good peach will destroy falcon's recovery on any stage with the exception of dk64 (because of the high platforms); like i said you're supposed to be using dair -> nair for edgeguarding which CAN'T be teched - unlike dsmash. just because dsmash ***** you on brinstar doesn't mean you don't get ***** just as bad by dair -> nair on every other stage. brinstar at the LEAST has lava to give you a chance of making it back. -_-

You can work around it but anything that makes your opponent's job harder is a good thing.

psh, this is what seperates pros from newbs; being able to do stuff that is generally hard. i'd much rather choose a counterpick based on the opponent's character's killing potential.. for example fox's usmash is worse on dreamland because of the high ceiling; it's just as easy for fox to usmash you on dreamland as on any stage, and it's probably the best fox counterpick in the game..

you don't need to make anything 'hard' for your opponent to have a good counterpick stage, i mean it's harder for falcon to wavedash onto yoshi's story's edge when you're on the ledge (because of the slanted ledge), yet it's undoubtedly one of falcon's strongest stages.

For an extreme counterpick I like Onett as falcon vs peach actually, not something I'd do unless I knew they didn't have a space animal though. Not legal at all tourneys, but the edgeguard nullifying is nice if it is on

..are you kidding me? i'm not trying to be rude but onett is one of THE worst falcon stages. all peach has to do is camp the wall next to the yellow house (where there's a platform on top) and falcon is ****ed. all she has to do is crouchcancel and wait for you to come to her, then she downsmashes for over 50%. you could tech the first hit against the wall but you can't really do anything to a peach camping down there, regardless.

sheik is even worse. you can't grab her when she CC's.

CPTNfalcon · Jun 21, 2007

Has anyone considered this thread to get stickied?

Hax said:
..are you kidding me? i'm not trying to be rude but onett is one of THE worst falcon stages. all peach has to do is camp the wall next to the yellow house (where there's a platform on top) and falcon is ****ed. all she has to do is crouchcancel and wait for you to come to her, then she downsmashes for over 50%. you could tech the first hit against the wall but you can't really do anything to a peach camping down there, regardless.

sheik is even worse. you can't grab her when she CC's.

. . . . OWNED! :chuckle:

BoomStick · Jun 21, 2007

LOL you're right clown..peach has bad recovery...Good luck in the special olympics and it's not Uairs that own peach, it's nairs.

Fonz · Jun 22, 2007

Yeah I got owned. Clearly all falcon's should be taking peaches to brinstar. I bet you get a lot of funny looks next time you take even a crappy peach to brinstar. I looked for a video I played against greg in teams where we counterpicked brinstar to post. But he switched to peach because he loves falcon on brinstar too much.

Snippets of an interesting hub convo:

<Fonz> would any captain falcon players counterpick brinstar vs peach? =P
<Omnigamer> no.
<Vist> lol i doubt it
<Fonz> i feel like i'm taking crazy pills
<lain> i'm fairly certain you'd have to like losing a lot if you chose brinstar vs peach

Zombie Lucille Ball · Jun 22, 2007

um can't we all just hug each other and agree that we should be taking Peach to Pokefloats?

RapeFalcon · Jun 22, 2007

CogSmooch said:
um can't we all just hug each other and agree that we should be taking Peach to Pokefloats?

Well said. Taking peach to PokeFloats is best but since i'm not used to the randomness of the stage, I prefer Yoshi's or FD.

TheManaLord · Jun 22, 2007

don't take peach to brinstar my pplz! the ceiling and walls are pretty big, never give peach the chance to live. take her to the small stages or ridiculous stages 2 win it. yoshi's story. poke floats.

pockyD · Jun 22, 2007

RapeFalcon said:
Well said. Taking peach to PokeFloats is best but since i'm not used to the randomness of the stage, I prefer Yoshi's or FD.

poke floats has zero randomness; just take the 10 mins to learn the stage x.x

TheManaLord · Jun 22, 2007

Yea lolz. ANother bad thing with brinstar is that the things you can hit (stage connector, and platform connectors) ruin shffl's, they can throw off l cancels, especially a novice player. And falcons game is all about shffling.

Hax · Jun 22, 2007

like i said i'd choose bf/yoshi's over brinstar against peach, i never said it was the best stage to fight her on, but the platform layout is great and at high %'s she has a hard time killing you since you can survive DI'd fthrows for a long time (high ceiling).

can i get more reasoning as to why onett is a good falcon stage..? the edgeguard nullifying is ONLY good vs peach because she lags like hell on her 2nd jump so she can't catch you, too bad dsmashes rack up over 70% on walls so it doesn't even matter. :dizzy:

walls are never good for falcon, ESPECIALLY walls with platforms above them. -_-

if onett is a good falcon stage then falcon deserves god tier on brinstar.

CPTNfalcon said:
Has anyone considered this thread to get stickied?

well, it can't really be stickied until there's an 'official' list on the 1st post. TC should make a new topic once we all come to a concencus on 'good' falcon stages/counterpicks.

CPTNfalcon · Jun 22, 2007

Hax said:
well, it can't really be stickied until there's an 'official' list on the 1st post. TC should make a new topic once we all come to a concencus on 'good' falcon stages/counterpicks.

. . .

I'm sorry to sound stupid but what does TC mean?

Gea · Jun 22, 2007

TC= Topic Creator.

RapeFalcon · Jun 22, 2007

Hax said:
well, it can't really be stickied until there's an 'official' list on the 1st post. TC should make a new topic once we all come to a concencus on 'good' falcon stages/counterpicks.

I guess I can do that, I'll probably start on it next week

.

anyone has counterpicks vs Ganon?

TheManaLord · Jun 23, 2007

Ganon is one of the most easily ***** chars by Falcon. You can 0 to death combo that big son of a gun like nothin'... take him to FD and combo the balls off him. Nothing really special in this matchup, you can outspeed him no probz.

edit: ONETT IS A TERRIBLE FALCON STAGE. OVER.

Hax · Jun 23, 2007

fighting ganon with falcon on fd is the most fun you can have with your pants on

CPTNfalcon · Jun 23, 2007

I'm sure every falcon knows vs Ganon go to FD.

. . . . If FD got banned, then go anywhere else exept for yoshi's, FoD, GG, and if legal Onett.

Hax said:
fighting ganon with falcon on fd is the most fun you can have with your pants on

LMAO!!

Hax · Jun 23, 2007

CPTNfalcon said:
I'm sure every falcon knows vs Ganon go to FD.

. . . . If FD got banned, then go anywhere else exept for yoshi's, FoD, GG, and if legal Onett.

yeah fd is great against him just because your grabs **** him up sooooooo bad.. he's still an easy matchup on just about every stage though unless the ganon has some major mindgames. >.>

btw, why do you say yoshi's is a bad stage against ganon? you mean yoshi's island? o.O yoshi's story is great!

RapeFalcon · Jun 23, 2007

Hax said:
yeah fd is great against him just because your grabs **** him up sooooooo bad.. he's still an easy matchup on just about every stage though unless the ganon has some major mindgames. >.>

btw, why do you say yoshi's is a bad stage against ganon? you mean yoshi's island? o.O yoshi's story is great!

That's why Ganon is not such an easy match because the guy I play has insane mindgames. he plays like u Hax with all the wavedashing and wavelanding he's extremely technical. It looks really weird on Ganon though.

He said yoshi's story is Ganon's best stage for him because all he needs to do is like 3 moves to get me off the stage and then he just hits me with the u-air tips and spikes me. Or just get a F-air.

Rage. · Jun 23, 2007

TheManaLord said:
edit: ONETT IS A TERRIBLE FALCON STAGE. OVER.

Onett is the best falcon stage in the world
everyone agrees right?

To beat down a Ganon play at FD or Dream land
combo with nairs and Raptor boost combos

for the peach thing go to Poke floats.
hell go to poke floats against anyone, no one really is good there besides falcon and
maybe sheik

Stage Counterpick/Ban list UPDATED! *updates ban list later* =)

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Stage Counterpick/Ban list UPDATED! updates ban list later =)