RE: Stale moves in Brawl (%, knockback)

Reality check, 1, 2.

I just had a conversation with Rohins, and I think it's necessary to make this post. If you haven't seen it by now, a lot of people have been freaking out over the contents of thread:

***IMPORTANT DISCOVERY*** Spammed attacks diminish in knockback! (FIRST POST UPDATED).

Why? I hear characters can jump in Brawl as well, ground-breaking huh?

Brawl, exactly like Melee, has moves get weaker when they are "spammed". Every repeated attack since the attacker has last spawned, within a certain number of moves, has reduced % damage dealt, and knockback. Video proof for the skeptical / lazy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OgCDwvLO8

This is not new. It's great you want to discuss it, but at least keep it real, and realize this is NOT new or game-changing.

</freaking out>

I think the more important part of the post was the fact that the moves diminish at a more pronounced rate. Is this true or not?

The differences between the properties are totally changed then in melee. It's more noticeable and the effect is greater. I'm betting you didn't read the entire thread. This didn't deserve it's own thread you could have easily and more effectively posted this in Ryoko's thread.

Kurizu208 said:

This didn't deserve it's own thread you could have easily and more effectively posted this in Ryoko's thread.

Click to expand...

It could have easily been ignored if it were, say, the last post on a page. But whatever.

Apparently its more prominent in Brawl, and Melee didn't diminish knockback. So far, we've seen Zelda spam an Fsmash on Bowser 5 times without him getting KO'd. We have some new statistics and all, but there still is a chance it could be game-changing. Especially with the new physics engine, people are looking for new ways to decrease the amount of knockback in any way possible.

So is this like a heads-up thread or what? I'm confused...

phanna said:

Reality check, 1, 2.

I just had a conversation with Rohins, and I think it's necessary to make this post. If you haven't seen it by now, a lot of people have been freaking out over the contents of thread:

***IMPORTANT DISCOVERY*** Spammed attacks diminish in knockback! (FIRST POST UPDATED).

Why? I hear characters can jump in Brawl as well, ground-breaking huh?

Brawl, exactly like Melee, has moves get weaker when they are "spammed". Every repeated attack since the attacker has last spawned, within a certain number of moves, has reduced % damage dealt, and knockback. Video proof for the skeptical / lazy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OgCDwvLO8

This is not new. It's great you want to discuss it, but at least keep it real, and realize this is NOT new or game-changing.

</freaking out>

Click to expand...

Silly Phanna.

59% =/= 48%

Ground-breaking

Libomasus said:

Apparently its more prominent in Brawl, and Melee didn't diminish knockback. So far, we've seen Zelda spam an Fsmash on Bowser 5 times without him getting KO'd. We have some new statistics and all, but there still is a chance it could be game-changing. Especially with the new physics engine, people are looking for new ways to decrease the amount of knockback in any way possible.

So is this like a heads-up thread or what? I'm confused...

Click to expand...

This is coming from someone who hasn't read the other thread entirely...

Yes. lol.

Phanna, you are confusing things. ^^"
In Smashbros, the knockback is calculated AFTER the doing damage.

In Melee, the knockback for All attacks (except B one) is the same when the ending damage is the same.

But in Brawl, the knockback is reduced even if the ending damage is the same.

*Sorry my english~

Because I have nothing better to do, I just tested this on my Melee copy. Obviously I don't have as much experience as you, Phanna, and I don't have video equipment as proof though what I did is easily copied, but I have to think what you're saying is not the case at all (even in terms of it being a less pronounced decay than Brawl.)

For both of my tests I used a Marth and a Ness on Mushroom Kingdom in Versus mode, with no DI on Ness's part. Marth was using nothing but uncharged Fsmashes.

For the first round of tests I positioned Marth on the right edge of the rightmost pit, rolling him towards the edge to keep his position certain. I placed Ness facing Marth on the dark orange area between yellow blocks so that there was 1 block's worth of space between the two.

A fresh c-stick Fsmash from that position would bring Ness to 15% and cause him to go into a knockdown state, falling 3 blocks away just on the other side of the orange line, in other words on the last block visible before you go offscreen.

After making Fsmash stale, the attack would only cause 7% damage and launch him pretty much right on that orange line 3 blocks away without putting him in the knockdown state. The difference between the two knockback distances was honestly very little, and I would attribute it to the extra 8% damage.

For the second round of tests I positioned both characters on the leftmost floating blocks on the stage. Marth rolled to the leftmost edge of the floating blocks, and Ness rolled to the rightmost edge. For these tests Ness was at exactly 77% damage.

A stale c-sticked Fsmash would bring Ness to 84% or so and send Ness lying on the right side of the 2nd set of floating blocks from the right, one of the higher platforms. A fresh c-sticked Fsmash would bring Ness to the 91-92% range and send him flying just a hair over the edge of those floating blocks he landed on earlier, which I would attribute to the small gain in knockback from the extra % on Ness.

Neither of the above showed anything remotely close to the reduction visible in Brawl videos so far, and I also have to think that it doesn't actually reduce the knockback ratio at all aside from the little bit of extra damage it causes.

So I would basically agree with the earlier posters in this thread that the extra knockback you see in your video is caused by the higher % difference - my tests didn't show as much difference as yours does, but I didn't use charged smashes and only had 7-8% differences between the stale and fresh attacks.

Dear phanna:

You did not read the entire history lesson where I explained why you are wrong 2 days ago. Thus, you are no better than the 10+ people who have already been shot down on separate occasions who all said "this was in Melee."

Yeah, because if this was in melee, we wouldn't see all the same moves and strategies being performed in every battle.

this really doesn't warrant a seperate thread. it's an opinion that has a direct relevance to the original topic. whatever.

the evidence is also poor. obviously there'll be a slightly greater knockback in a "fresh" move because of the greater damage dealt. but this does not compare with the knockback penalties that are given in Brawl for repetition of moves.

this thread should be locked or deleted.

...




Characters can JUMP in Brawl !!!!!????

RyokoYaksa said:

Dear phanna:

You did not read the entire history lesson where I explained why you are wrong 2 days ago. Thus, you are no better than the 10+ people who have already been shot down on separate occasions who all said "this was in Melee."

Click to expand...

his post is still good >_>

many brawl players are freaking out, and the sending power diminish is minimal. The mechanic, as he said, is NOT game changing.

Lol @ "the sending power diminish is minimal"

You do know that after using a strong KO move a measly 3 times in Brawl, it becomes useless as a KO move? In Melee, you would be able to KO with that move at any time.

The depreciation of sending power is not "minimal." Not knowing the specifics of this is the de facto reason why current matches involve the players not being able to kill their opponents anywhere below 150 damage.

****, look at the bright red texted video example I put in that topic. If your move didn't KO the opponent the 1st time, it's not going to KO them the 2nd time when used in succession. Or the 3rd time. Or the 4th time. Or the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th times. Even with the damage you're accumulating on your target, the resultant knockback on your attack is weakening all the way! The only penalty lost in Melee with this was a bit damage on the attacks, which indirectly make the attack send a tiny bit less. However, if thepost-hit damage is the same, the knockback is always the same. This is not even close to the same thing.

Now please delete your Smashboards accounts.

Wow. Some people can be so dense. The video gives definitive proof that the diminish is NOT minimal.

RyokoYaksa said:

The depreciation of sending power is not "minimal." Not knowing the specifics of this is the de facto reason why current matches involve the players not being able to kill their opponents anywhere below 150 damage.

****, look at the bright red texted video example I put in that topic. If your move didn't KO the opponent the 1st time, it's not going to KO them the 2nd time when used in succession. Or the 3rd time. Or the 4th time. Or the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th times. Even with the damage you're accumulating on your target, the resultant knockback on your attack is weakening all the way! The only penalty lost in Melee with this was a bit damage on the attacks, which indirectly make the attack send a tiny bit less. However, if thepost-hit damage is the same, the knockback is always the same. This is not even close to the same thing.

Now please delete your Smashboards accounts.

Click to expand...

Can ness kill say Olimar at 120% with a fresh fsmash?

BentoBox said:

Can ness kill say Olimar at 120% with a fresh fsmash?

Click to expand...

Ness can kill Mario at 80% with a fresh Fsmash in this game. (without DI) His Fasmash has been made slower, but stronger.

o.O

in melee, the knockback diminished too

aand it only gets weaker if you don't use a variety of attacks. Yes, it makes a different, but not to the way we played in melee. This has always happened, it just happens faster this game.

*facepalm extreme*

WHY DON'T YOU GUYS GET IT?

We're not sure about the utility of it yet...but it exists to an extent more than melee OR n64...

Falco&Victory said:

o.O

in melee, the knockback diminished too

aand it only gets weaker if you don't use a variety of attacks. Yes, it makes a different, but not to the way we played in melee. This has always happened, it just happens faster this game.

Click to expand...

That's totally besides the point. It wasn't game-changing in Melee. This time, it truly is game-changing.

this will reall change the game up

o.O

Nobody else who has reviewed it has noticed >_>

even at that big tourney no one noticed >_>

NESSBOUNDER said:

Lol @ "the sending power diminish is minimal"

You do know that after using a strong KO move a measly 3 times in Brawl, it becomes useless as a KO move? In Melee, you would be able to KO with that move at any time.

Click to expand...

QFT

Really... i'm a bit scaried because the game will be an "use-all-moves-even-unusable-ones-if-you-want-to-win"...

Let's see how it gets. Olimar has advantage there, because he racks damage throwing pikmins. Same with projectiles people (and that's why i think his projectyles has been nerfed)...

Very good mechanic discovery. Even if it was in melee, i'm glad i'm learning about it now..

Still. It makes what we thought were useless attacks...not so useless anymore.

Ryoko has a heart of stone.

Falco&Victory said:

o.O

Nobody else who has reviewed it has noticed >_>

even at that big tourney no one noticed >_>

Click to expand...

Just because no ones noticed it doesn't mean it can't be game-changing. If 5 Fsmashes still doesn't kill someone at a high percentage, you may just blame it on the physics. Plus, you can see Zelda KO's Bowser with an Ftilt instead. I'd say an Ftilt being stronger than a full smash attack is a pretty big difference.

It could be game-changing, it just needs more testing. I'm really interested in the effect this might have on combos mostly.

Falco&Victory said:

o.O

Nobody else who has reviewed it has noticed >_>

even at that big tourney no one noticed >_>

Click to expand...

Lol, yeah, and why do you think people so far have been having trouble KOing at higher percentages?

So far, people have just said that in Brawl it's "harder to KO characters now" which it seems is only true due to the fact that they were continuously hitting with their strongest moves in an attempt to KO.

Falco&Victory said:

o.O

in melee, the knockback diminished too

aand it only gets weaker if you don't use a variety of attacks. Yes, it makes a different, but not to the way we played in melee. This has always happened, it just happens faster this game.

Click to expand...

OMG.

Let me explain:

Character Damage -> Damage Given by the Attack -> Knockback Given by the Attack.

In Melee, and with A attacks, only the Damage Given by the Attack suffers reduction. That is why at the same damage BEFORE THE ATTACK a fresh and a stale move have a knockback difference, its because the Damage Given is different.

Knockback doesn't change.

Now think in Brawl, if this difference is only due the Damage Given diminish in Melee, now imagine this with the Knockback also diminished.

>.>''

hmm, I really have a lot of trust in what Phanna says and the video he put up does show a clear differences.

However this is brawl and ..and maybe Ryoko knows more about it then Phanaa does.

God **** it, this is very, very stupid. Wow.

Tristan_win said:

hmm, I really have a lot of trust in what Phanna says and the video he put up does show a clear differences.

However this is brawl and ..and maybe Ryoko knows more about it then Phanaa does.

Click to expand...

really? because phanna just discredited himself quite a bit through his first post. Not game changing my ***, I see sheik needing a completely different playstyle if she EVER wants to get a kill before 300%.

Phanna's just being an idiot, mechanics are way different, a series of diminishing returns and move decay is much more pronounced in brawl. This is why people kill at 94% at times and then 212% at other times.

Ryoko was always good at finding these important details anyways

So basicly its like this

Melee: lower damage -> less knockback

Brawl: less damage ->less knockback + less stand alone knockback

Tristan_win said:

hmm, I really have a lot of trust in what Phanna says and the video he put up does show a clear differences.

However this is brawl and ..and maybe Ryoko knows more about it then Phanaa does.

Click to expand...

I invite anyone to try out what I did in my post in the first page which indicates that there is negligible/no knockback ratio reduction in Melee.

I used non-charged smashes, as most attacks are not charged in Melee, and the ones Zelda used against Bowser in the proof video in the other thread were not charged.

The knockback almost didn't diminished in Melee, which is the WHOLE point behind the thread, this changes the game.

-Respect

Really, this changes up game play a lot, Brawl is a lot more tactical.

this is a reply to anyone who has the same train of thought as this guy...

NESSBOUNDER said:

Lol @ "the sending power diminish is minimal"

You do know that after using a strong KO move a measly 3 times in Brawl, it becomes useless as a KO move? In Melee, you would be able to KO with that move at any time.

Click to expand...

do you honestly think its a good strategy to spam the same move 4 or 5 times in a row? what ONE move is so insanely powerful that it is the ONLY move you use? the tests have already shown that if you mix it up at all, the decline isnt NEARLY that bad. even marth has more than 1 good move. (and in brawl, that will hopefully be more)

SilintNinjya said:

this is a reply to anyone who has the same train of thought as this guy...



do you honestly think its a good strategy to spam the same move 4 or 5 times in a row? what ONE move is so insanely powerful that it is the ONLY move you use? the tests have already shown that if you mix it up at all, the decline isnt NEARLY that bad. even marth has more than 1 good move. (and in brawl, that will hopefully be more)

Click to expand...

I think you've misunderstood what he was saying...

If anything this will make people spam one move MORE because they will be scared to use other damage moves and diminish those too.

phanna said:

realize this is NOT new or game-changing.

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You're saying a buffed effect doesn't change the game.

Reality check 3 4

IT DOES!

It's not new but it IS gamechanging.