is footstooling viable? and is pikmin control importnant?

first question..... just wondering if anyone footstools with olimar. i personally don't and wanted to know if it works for anyone or is it just too risky and lacking effectiveness with olimar.

my second question was, who else uses the wht i call "whistle counting" to control pikmin? i'm getting the impression that very few use it to its full potential, however i thought that it was a necessity for someone to become a great olimar player. i'm just wondering if i am reading too deeply into the ability of calling any given color pikmin on command using "whistle counting"


if you don't know what i'm talking about by whistle counting, you can read it here under the "how it works" section [2001] http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158890

also while i'm here, does anyone see a reason for using a f-air over a b-air and vice versa? it could just be me, but does it seem that b-air often hits the opponent faster due to it coming from under you opposed to over you?

this is all, no long extensive writing unfortunately lol..... too lazy for that, possibly lame post... who knows, but answers are appreciated esp. the footstool question

wow, i spelled important wrong lol

footstooling- i never use it knowing that i was going to use it as an edgeguard for more than a second. It's very situational, and in those odd instances where u happen to be perfectly above them-above the abyss below, that's when I use it.

Whistle- yes, it is very importnant. don't be afraid to use it at all to organize your pikmen. great olimar players will use it very often. It's one of the moves u shouldn't be weary to use and that u should use eventually out of habit. It's kinda like fox's laser, ness's pk fire, link's arrows in the way that it helps improve your all around game play when u use them correctly.

helped?

i was speaking more of using footstooling to kill. i was watching some vids and well, they were using footstooling to kill people and it was ridiculous.... although they were pit/or marth

and well, i wouldn't compare the whistle to those moves since i consider those more moves u can kinda spam, and well... spamming the whistle would just through off your whistle count... but i think i see what you mean

Footstool-jumping is entirely situational. I can send you a replay I saved of a great FSJ kill if you'd like. You don't usually practice FSJ-ing with Olimar, saying, "Ooh, I'm gonna airdodge into his attack and footstool-jump him!" You just do it instinctively when it's necessary.

What is the exact oder that pikmin go in? because i know when you fist pluck out a row a pikmin the wistle makes pikmin of the same color stand together than changes color. but whats the actual color flow they follow?

chainsaw2x333 said:

What is the exact oder that pikmin go in? because i know when you fist pluck out a row a pikmin the wistle makes pikmin of the same color stand together than changes color. but whats the actual color flow they follow?

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the first time you whistle, your pikmin are ordered into groups yes..... but assuming you have at least one of each color they will order as follows
red, yellow, blue, white, purple
next whistle will order them yellow, blue, white, purple, red
then the next whistle makes it go blue, white, purple, red, yellow
this patter continues and when it reaches red it restarts, if the color of the next group is not available, it will skip it and make the color next in the patter appear in the front of the line. this tren occurs no matter what moves you do and no matter how the pikmin are ordered before the whistle, therefor u are able to know which color will be at the front of your line just by knowing the whistle count

Ultimatum479 said:

Footstool-jumping is entirely situational. I can send you a replay I saved of a great FSJ kill if you'd like. You don't usually practice FSJ-ing with Olimar, saying, "Ooh, I'm gonna airdodge into his attack and footstool-jump him!" You just do it instinctively when it's necessary.

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this is exactly right. it's situational.

could u direct us to those videos you saw? i wanna see exactly what they did. Or was it just a compilation of situational footstool jumps? just curious

I don't use footstool jumps for kills, and I rarely use the whistle, except when I have a white pikmin and the opponent is at a high damage, then I either whistle or just throw away the white pikmin. Usually i just look at what pikmin I have and attack with it accordingly.

I constantly whistle and keep track of whistling, but I'm a throw happy olly - so I whistle to white to throw but most often I try to stay 1 to 2 whistles within a purple lead for edge recovery.

-DanGR
i think it was more of a compilation lol.... but it was still cool and made me wonder if i should try it.... i killed mt friends sonic earlier with a footstool.... sure if i am going to try to really use it yet though...

did u still want a link?

to Hashire Kazemeijin
i was more saying like do u use it to whistle count? like so that u know which pikmin color comes up on your next whistle.

If u still want to speak to me pyronic, i don't really need the video. If they used it for almost every kill in a 3 stock fight, then YEAH. heck, i wanna see them do it against good players. If it were possible to master and use effectively, then sure, I'll learn techniques to use it everytime.

-forgive me

@DanGR
haha, ur straight lol, i'm not gonna hate u from a joke haha
but i was considering the footstooling more today because i noticed u can drop down from the chain, this would mean that an olimar, in theory, could use the chain, and then footstool, or pull up from the chain and then footstool.......... allowing two separate positions that can be applied accordingly

i'll try to practice this some tomorrow and see if its a feasible option

when people say footstooling is situational, they just mean that it's dumb luck when it happens. Every once in a while people will get footstooled off the stage by luck, its very rare when someone does it intentionally.

Stale moves reduces knockback of moves overly used. So you use your Fair for comboing, and you use your Bair as a KO move, thats the difference. One you use alot, one you use rarely.

Organizing pikmin is SUPER overrated on these forums. Dont organize your pikmin in battle, it takes too much time and its easier to organize by attacking. Just organize your pikmin when the other person is KO'ed. You want to either get red/yellow's in the beginning or get your whites out for the throwing.

For some reason people on the forum think that you're playing an RTS with olimar and you need specific formations and orders of your pikmin, ect. Anyone who says this probably sucks. Just pay attention to what pikmin you currently have, and what important pikmin are coming up. If you have a white, grab or throw it. Dont grab/fsmash with fatties unless you're close, ect.

blue cheez said:

when people say footstooling is situational, they just mean that it's dumb luck when it happens. Every once in a while people will get footstooled off the stage by luck, its very rare when someone does it intentionally.

Stale moves reduces knockback of moves overly used. So you use your Fair for comboing, and you use your Bair as a KO move, thats the difference. One you use alot, one you use rarely.

Organizing pikmin is SUPER overrated on these forums. Dont organize your pikmin in battle, it takes too much time and its easier to organize by attacking. Just organize your pikmin when the other person is KO'ed. You want to either get red/yellow's in the beginning or get your whites out for the throwing.

For some reason people on the forum think that you're playing an RTS with olimar and you need specific formations and orders of your pikmin, ect. Anyone who says this probably sucks. Just pay attention to what pikmin you currently have, and what important pikmin are coming up. If you have a white, grab or throw it. Dont grab/fsmash with fatties unless you're close, ect.

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blue cheez said:

when people say footstooling is situational, they just mean that it's dumb luck when it happens.

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-I think your wrong. lets say you're edgehogging a G&W. you realize that his recovery will bring him up just above the edge where you hang, and he'll land safely. That instant, you decide to jump up from the edge and land just above the edge of the level where G&W will be during his recovery animation. You time it right and jump again to footstool. Was that dumb luck? or was it a situational last second decision? At least when I say it's situational, I mean very sitational. everyone has to admit that they've done accidental footstools before, but everytime? that's just not true.(no pun intended) this happens to me sometimes when i edgeguard. I'll fall off the edge to go after an opponent witha spike. I'll fastfall too much, my opponent doesn't expect it to happen, and I'll jump while c-sticking down to spike. Instead, I'll footstool and end up with a raw lookin kill.

blue cheez said:

Organizing pikmin is SUPER overrated on these forums. Dont organize your pikmin in battle, it takes too much time and its easier to organize by attacking. Just organize your pikmin when the other person is KO'ed. You want to either get red/yellow's in the beginning or get your whites out for the throwing.

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It's not overrated on these forums, it's underrated. It has just about no lag, it does not take too much time to do like you said otherwise, and it keeps your pikmen organized.

blue cheez said:

For some reason people on the forum think that you're playing an RTS with olimar and you need specific formations and orders of your pikmin, ect. Anyone who says this probably sucks. Just pay attention to what pikmin you currently have, and what important pikmin are coming up.

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I don't think throwing pikmen TO change to the order is a good strategy, because it invites attacks by your opponent, and it takes too long, but the idea isn't a noobish one. you can customize your combos if you were to have the time to order them any way you like. I do agree though that you should pay attention to your pikmen to see which one's come out next. I'll usually switch to a yellow to do an aerial, and I'll throw particularly my reds, yellows, and purples when spamming throws at zelda. (purples to start a combo) Something else Olimar users can do that I'm not very good at doing yet though is using the whistle to block an attack, and depending on which pikmen you have next in the line to determine what the punishing attack will be. Is this for noobs like you said? I don't think so, and you'd probably be smart to try and practice it.

@blue cheez
well, i can tell u that i footstooled sonic by knowing that his up b sends him straight up vertically and i just timed it accordingly... or i hung from my pikmin chain, and dropped on someone's head for a footstool kill.. these were not luck, but planned.

i know that difference, was more saying is one faster or better than the other -.- or should one be used for an opponent below u or above u and etc...

pikmin ordering being overrated.... do u play olimar competitvely? ur method equals one shot kills. my method equals multiple opportunities... i can do wht u do plus more. i start the match with 2 whistles, and when my opponent gets to 110%, i f-b to a blue and attempt b-throw, (assuming i have no whites) i then also can u-throw with a purple, then whistle and repeat the grab attempts,, then whistle and to try with a purple one last time. any experienced olimar can mind game someone into a grab... and there are five chances so its possibly the easiest way to kill someone. not to menton that if u do miss the first set of grabs u cn still try to kill with an u-smash/d-smash or any normal way without messing up the order. to me, whistle counting can be the difference between a 110% kill on final d.... and a 160% plus kill esp. since one method depends on smash atks more, and smash atks can be stopped by other atks, shields, or dodges... grabs r only stoped by dodges. and how is it too slow? i have had a sonic run at me, i did one whistle to my blue and b-throw killed him before he was able to atk me..... so yea, in your eyes do i now suck because i preplan what i do through whistle order? i think thats highly debatable

i don't think this is a rts however haha. but what would be wrong with combining whistle counting with what you say people should do? thats how you use whistle counting to the most potential. no one really just sits there and lets you plan you strategy so u have to do it on the go... therefore i whistle count to the color before the one i want... and then i use other means to get to the color i want... so now i have twice as many chances to do what with your approach would be one. i'm not saying that you should only whistle count to control pikmin,, because that would be very bad, but i'm saying its very important and is the only way one can use a single move and get to any color in the line-up (assuming you have set it up correctly of course)

I never thought of the idea of whistling twice to get a blue ready at 110%, that's a great idea. I knew of doing it a few times to ready a purple in the next, though.

Picture this: My enemy is at 100%, so i want the right pikmin to ko him. But we are in close combat. So i run away so i can whistle until i get the pikmin i want and then re-approach with it. To me, this seems like a dumb idea b/c not only does it leave yourself open when retreating, but you lose all the momentum/pressure you had when fighting to retreat. A lot of pikmin players say you should do this.

INSTEAD, it is better to use whatever pikmin you have in front of you and use whatever strength that pikmin has.

Purple's ko with an Uthrow, or usmash
Blues ko with a back throw
yellow, reds ko with aerials
Blue's arent the only pikmin that can KO, basicly as long as you have anything but white, you should be fine.

Also, anyone that isnt a noob will realize that if you are always going with the strength of the pikmin in order, you become super predictable. EXAMPLE, olimar has 2 blue, 1 purple, and a yellow. Either olimar is going to throw the pikmin at you, or he is going to try to grab you twice, and then try to aerial.
By relying too much on the strengths of the pikmin you b/c predictable and it can kill your momentum and slow you down.

For some reason people are interpreting that as "ZOMG NEVAR USE THE PIKMIN WISTLE EVAR!" But that's not what im saying. I'm just saying that sometimes people rely on it too heavily when they should be focusing more on spacing, and predicting what the opponent is going to do.
I also think WAC is overrated too. Shielding is better on the ground, air dodging is better at lower percents when the player isn't pushing you off the stage or juggling you. But WAC is super useful for recovery, and i use it all the time get back on the stage.



Now about toadstool jumping. Why can't you just spike them? If this is so perfectly planned, wouldn't it be better for you to do the same thing but with a hitbox that stops you from getting hit if they attack?
I'm not saying toadstool jumping is bad, or you cant do it. Someone said that they are just so uber, that their brain toadstools before they even realize it. Yeah, thats not doing it on accident or anything...lol.
If toadstooling IS better than spiking, then you use it when a character with a high vertical recovery is directly below the edge.

There, i did the impossible and actually answered what the OP asked, instead of ambiguously saying that its good but only for certain unsaid senarios I was just annoyed that someone actually said that they did it intentionally but they dont know how.

footstooling is not better than spiking.... but i can't hang from the pikmin chain, spike u, and live.... this can be done with a footstool however..... but i am going to try it out more this week and i'll let u know if i'm able to do it constantly or not..... like maybe a kill a game or a kill every two games......... that would be enough for me.
to blue cheez

for the whistle question when u need a red.... well, i only whistle when i'm going for kills or when i'm at high damage and know that i'll need a purple.... i whistle to white (4 times) but if u need it for a red..... u an always whistle once if u have not used it yet, and a red will appear. or assuming you have been whistling throughout the match u will know how many whistles u need to get to the red and you can do so accordingly. i'm not suggesting u stand, do nothign, and whistle.... u have to do it fluidly. u fight, do this and that and whistle here or there, while they recover, u can whistle to set up, when there flying away, if they run, there r plenty of times to whistle since its so fast

so you're going to check and see if footstooling can be consistently used? great! now we actually have someone practicing to see if it can actually be used practically. post a thread if you find anything

I differ in my opinion that spiking is better than footstooling. It depends what you mean by "better" though. Spiking is much more practical than footstooling unless they are using a recovery that can't damage you. For lucario for instance-his doesn't hurt. You can footstool that if you time it right. neither will the entrance on sheik's recovery.(zelda yes though) those characters can be footstooled practically. If you were to try and footstool marth persay, it would be very difficult. A spike would be a much better option.

to pyronic-I wouldn't think it could be used hanging from the chain though unless it was very short and your opponent made a bad mistake. They'd have to be as low from the stage as you are hanging from the chain, and if they are THAT low, then a spike or bair would be a better option anytime.

@DanGR
that is what i originally thought....... however.... u can shorten your length based on when u grab it... instead of being 6 pikmin down, u can grab it closer and make it 3. or, you could grab that low for protection from an attack, launch yourself to the edge, and then quickly ff onto the head, i was only able to attempt this like 3 times since i was trying to get ready for a tourny but it almost worked, i just messed up the timing

hmm... i new you could make the chain longer. it's just that you could also spike in the same situation:

you pull back up to the ledge, ff-to a spike...nvm! (it'll just make you fall!) hmm... i guess you're right. a spike in that situation would just kill you too b/c it forces you downwards. That is... unless you do it immediately after you fall then jump...
nvm again. I think i'm right, but...
nvm. I'm so confused.

*wince* *wince* *blink*

I guess both would work...

hahahahahaha, the footstool is just another option to keep things varied, and if your too low u can spike, and if your haning on the chain... people will often attempt to atk u so u pull up and well.... d-air takes more time then just dropping thats all.......... but i haven't proven it useful yet so i'll get back to you later with a vid when i make it tomorrow.... if i footstool then i made it useful, if not.... give me more time haha