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Who counters Dr Mario?
- Thread starter Izzhov
- Start date
BAMN
Smash Journeyman
Doc doesn't counter Sheik actually, but the matchup isn't too much in Sheik's favor.
Docs counters include everyone that is higher on the tier list than him, they have some advantage, ranging from large to small. Jiggs can also have an advantage over Doc.
Docs counters include everyone that is higher on the tier list than him, they have some advantage, ranging from large to small. Jiggs can also have an advantage over Doc.
Roman.
Smash Champion
i think falcon counters doc and shiek somewhat, it really depends on the players and at what skill level they are
MuBa
Smash Lord
Marth definitely counters Doc hands down. Falcon can be a problem because his N-air destroys Doc's pill spam approach.
Roman.
Smash Champion
i don't find marth to be that big of a problem if you space well, obviously watch out for his edgeguarding but your edgeguarding can be just as effective, if not more
if you know how to space around marth's attacks it's not that bad
if you know how to space around marth's attacks it's not that bad
Rampage
vx
FALCON FALCON FALCON
lolfalcon
lolfalcon
Ok, i dunno what version you're talkin about, so im going to speak in American, the only language i understand.
For a flat out doc counter, you want captain falcon. Captain falcon outruns doc, and outmaneuvers him in the air to the point of where he can get anywhere he wants to. Doc has a ridiculously hard time pinning him down, and the only way to stop Capfal from jumping over his shield is to jump BEFORE and HIGHER than him. That's a terrible thing to do because if Capfal baits this, he gets u.air combos. Pills also get completely negated by n.airs, which btw, n.airs outrange EVERYTHING doc has. EVERYTHING. A grab from doc can go from 0-D with tech chasing, but not alot is really guarenteed beyond the chaingrab.
The next counters would have to be either sheik or marth.
All sheik has to look out for is a b.air. If sheik can stay away from docs b.air, she can annhilate him with whatever she wants, tilts or f.airs. Needles also beat pills, and i learned the hard way from Caveman that needles annhilate doc's recovery (and half the game's recovery, for that matter.) If doc can get a grab on sheik, then he has a chaingrab that can be ended with a f.smash or more, but grabbing a good sheik is retardedly hard.
An experienced marth knows how to handle doc's pill game. It's ridiculously hard to even hit one with a pill, and then you have to hope they actually dont sac the hit and just bait you into coming in. Beyond that, it's just flat out hard to approach a patient marth. You have to be practically across the stage from them, or right in their face, and patient marths are not going to let you walk in the front door.
__
and lol @ bamn. Everybody above doc doenst counter him. Having a disadvantage in a matchup doesnt mean it's a counter. Infact, alot of spanimals are terrified of docs. Peach is ridiculously hard if you refuse to force her to wade through your spam, like every other character with a projectile does.
And jiggs having an advantage over doc? Yeah once jiggs gets doc over the level. But jiggs has to get through doc, meaning jiggs should be going through a wall of pills. Most jiggs camp, and they all look to bait laggy attacks and catch people with mango tricks. Dont tech towards jiggs, it a jiggs' shield with a poorly spaced or laggy attack, and you better not pattern your techs on a platform. It's not like doc is one of the few characters in the game that can pretty much punish a missed rest with death from low percents. >.>
otg
Smash Master
Agreed with Dogy, however I feel Sheik is a much harder matchup for Doc than Falcon. Falcon's rough, but edgeguarding him is relatively easily, you can change grab and tech chase him somewhat effectively. You just have to adapt and play both matchups differently than most characters... although in reality Doc's matchups can be very different.
Captain falcon is flat out harder than sheik, period.
Capfal is completely mobile. He's so much faster than doc that approach with d.air is completely viable, because doc REALLY cant defend himself against it.
Yeah, if doc gets a grab on capfal, that can lead to death by chaingrabbing and tech chasing, but you have to grab capfal first. That is so hard to do against a good capfal because again, he is not going to stand still. You have NOTHING to realistally make him stay in place.
Sheik is in her own right just as hard to grab, and she can actually FORCE you to come to her by way of needles. Even with that, she can annhilate your approach with f.tilts and f.airs. If you grab her, you get a chaingrab that you have to end at some point and hope to keep her in grab. If she grabs you, she is atleast guarenteed a f.tilt and a f.air. The one thing you can do in this matchup that is extremely important is that you can stop her from jumping over your shield. That's important because you can put up a fight against stuff like b.air -> grab.
Dont get me wrong, it's not that sheik isnt hard, it's actually a fairly ******** matchup. But it gets edged out by capfal.
Capfal is completely mobile. He's so much faster than doc that approach with d.air is completely viable, because doc REALLY cant defend himself against it.
Yeah, if doc gets a grab on capfal, that can lead to death by chaingrabbing and tech chasing, but you have to grab capfal first. That is so hard to do against a good capfal because again, he is not going to stand still. You have NOTHING to realistally make him stay in place.
Sheik is in her own right just as hard to grab, and she can actually FORCE you to come to her by way of needles. Even with that, she can annhilate your approach with f.tilts and f.airs. If you grab her, you get a chaingrab that you have to end at some point and hope to keep her in grab. If she grabs you, she is atleast guarenteed a f.tilt and a f.air. The one thing you can do in this matchup that is extremely important is that you can stop her from jumping over your shield. That's important because you can put up a fight against stuff like b.air -> grab.
Dont get me wrong, it's not that sheik isnt hard, it's actually a fairly ******** matchup. But it gets edged out by capfal.
Roman.
Smash Champion
I've played good falcons and shieks and yeah falcon is definitly harder by a good margin. Falcon gives you NO room to breathe ever and if you don't think fast and smart you are going to get comboed and falcon is one of the few characters that can combo doc pretty efficiently. That's what really kills you.
Shiek is annoying as hell but honestly, you should just be trading hits for the most part until she gets off the edge, then it's just easy mode. Plus it's MUCH easier to combo shiek at low percents compared to falcon.
Shiek is annoying as hell but honestly, you should just be trading hits for the most part until she gets off the edge, then it's just easy mode. Plus it's MUCH easier to combo shiek at low percents compared to falcon.
Grunt
Smash Master
Viral Outbreaks.
...and just about everyone that isn't Shiek.
...and just about everyone that isn't Shiek.
otg
Smash Master
I completely agree, don't get me wrong. Falcon and Sheik are definitely his hardest fights. Sheik is just more aggravating for me. It seems like everything she does outranges and outspeeds you, plus she can edge guard you soo much more efficiently than Falcon.
I know Falcon is more of a pain in the *** to fight, and he can combo the balls out of you, but you make it seem like the whole time you're fighting him you're just gonna stand still and throw pills at him. Well of course you're gonna get comboed hard if you do that. You get Falcon off the stage, that's the end of a stock. Sheik is a different story.
Personally, I don't think Doc has any true counters, just annoying and hard matchups. The last big tournament I can think of Bob$ entering, he was up against Isai in Loser's finals. He was beating Isai's Falcon, so what did Isai do? Switch to Sheik and proceed to win the round. If the best Doc in the country does well against Falcon and than loses to Sheik, what do you say to that?
soap
Smash Hero
Is Bob$ the best doc player in the country?
BAMN
Smash Journeyman
I agree that Falcon and Shiek are pretty hard matchups for Doc but Marth is by far his most difficult. Marth can outspace him fairly easily due to Doc's mediocre reach. I also agree with what Dogy said and that Doc has no real counters, only difficult matchups. As hard as Marth, Shiek, and Falcon can be for Doc, he can still hold his own.
And soap, if it isn't him, it is most likely SmashMac. But Bob$ probably is the best seeing as he places high in almost every tournament he attends.
otg
Smash Master
One of the best, if not the most well known. Caveman might have actually accomplished more on a Nationwide level however.
And BAMN, I was the one who said Doc has no true counter, Dogy feels it's Captain Falcon. As for Marth being Doc's hardest matchup, I disagree. One of Doc's harder matchups, yes. Marth's huge disjointed hitbox and grab range can pose a lot of problems, but I would rather fight a campy Marth than a campy Sheik any day of the week.
Doc out maneuvers Marth in the air, can juggle and combo him pretty fierce if he gets in close. How do you get in close? Mix up pills, spot dodges and feint lots of attacks; lots of Marths abuse Fsmash a bit too much and if you can read/trick them into it you have a big opening. Sheik and Falcon are both faster than you in the air and on the ground, and their up close/ground game is better than Doc's.
Pretty much against Sheik/Falcon, you're going to pray you get a grab in and don't make a mistake. It's the only chance you got.
Roman.
Smash Champion
Idk, personally falcon's combos are just so much deadlier than shieks and he cause almost always get you into one. Really the only way to deal with falcon is hope you get a bair or a grab and that either you don't **** up or he does.
Shiek's combos, don't get me wrong are really deadly too, but her tilts will stop ****** at mid % and then she has to fair, you won't die! Unlike other characters, doc is too floaty to get completely gayed by shiek. Also shiek is, like i said before, very easy to combo at low % while falcon, not so much.
Btw marth really isn't even close to as bad as falcon and shiek. I mean he's trouble for everyone for the same reasons really and honestly docs weak point is his range compared to like every character so marth is no diferent than any other matchup. And yeah doc can really punish a missed fsmash easily.
Shiek's combos, don't get me wrong are really deadly too, but her tilts will stop ****** at mid % and then she has to fair, you won't die! Unlike other characters, doc is too floaty to get completely gayed by shiek. Also shiek is, like i said before, very easy to combo at low % while falcon, not so much.
Btw marth really isn't even close to as bad as falcon and shiek. I mean he's trouble for everyone for the same reasons really and honestly docs weak point is his range compared to like every character so marth is no diferent than any other matchup. And yeah doc can really punish a missed fsmash easily.
BAMN
Smash Journeyman
I really think that Marth is Doc's worst matchup but I think that by no means is it one sided or anything. I actually really enjoy fighting marth's because of exactly what you said: you can combo him to hell once you get close enough. Sheik can make life very difficult for Doc but I think is an overall easier matchup because of Doc's chaingrab.
Roman.
Smash Champion
But if you look closer to the matchup, yeah chaingrabbing shiek is great for damage but shiek's close up game is imba compared to doc's. If you grab marth you're gunna be in his ******* and he can't really do anything about it. At 0% you can pretty easily combo off of a dthrow and if you mess up, no biggie. But if you mess up with shiek you are right where she wants you.
No, you dont stand there and do pills. You run, you bair, and you pray to god that capfal spaces his nair poorly. That's ALL you can do. If you try to go above with a d.air, and he reacts fast enough to your fullhop (which he can, you have to actually JUMP), he gets a u.air. You stay on the ground, and capfal is fast enough on the ground and in the air where approaching with d.air to get around you is a viable tactic.
Is he, as in right now? I dont even know if he plays. Was he when he played? That's debatable. In the end he got smart like eggz did with mario. Smart being bob money stopped playing doc so much and went marth.
Wait what? I never said "Doc has no counters". Im not a concieted "character fan" player who swears up and down their character is good. DOC HAS TERRIBLE MATCHUPS, THOSE ARE CALLED COUNTERS. There's a reason why caveman went to sheik, and bob money went to marth. Doc has counters.
I mean, if you want to say doc has no counters, you have to say that ICs have no counters, and if you believe that, lol.
Oh, marth can be a ******** matchup, too. The thing is, to beat a marth, doc has to be patient and catch marth coming in. Most people who play the game arent patient (hench why you hear about everybody having a terrible time with puffs). Marth can flat out stop docs pill game if he knows how, and beyond that he outranged doc with his grab alone, let alone just about every attack in his arsenal. Marth is a hard matchup.
SmashMac
Smash Lord
Well I personally see Sheik as the biggest counter. Her auto-spacing and broke arse grab is just too ridic. If you're grabbed she WILL follow up with something. In this matchup it really helps to know the correct way of edge-guarding/edge-hogging her. When she's off the stage, sit on the ledge, force her to land on the stage, neutral get-up onto the stage and fsmash her back off. Continuing that will eventually lead to her doom.
CFal is a bit of a counter as well for all the reasons Dogy said. His nair through your pills really doesn't help either >_>'. And if he grabs you at around 90%, be sure to DI the dthrow other wise it's over once he connects that knee. In this matchup I usually bair/SHBAWD approach a lot, and connect a grab combo in after my bairs.
CFal is a bit of a counter as well for all the reasons Dogy said. His nair through your pills really doesn't help either >_>'. And if he grabs you at around 90%, be sure to DI the dthrow other wise it's over once he connects that knee. In this matchup I usually bair/SHBAWD approach a lot, and connect a grab combo in after my bairs.
it actually doesnt matter where you DI, he has a guarenteed knee. He just has to read your DI and follow you correctly.
Kinda like d.throw/u.throw f.air for us.
Kinda like d.throw/u.throw f.air for us.
Pritch
Smash Lord
I remember cyphus telling me a while back that he found sheik to be his worst matchup.
well look. I just came up with a real simple solution to this.
Who counters doc?
Capfal AND sheik.
Done, next topic.
Who counters doc?
Capfal AND sheik.
Done, next topic.
boss8
Smash Hero
doc is a amazing character...with aspiring powers.....low weakness's.......and neatrual counters......
doc doesn't counter anyone nor is he countered by anyone IMO.....
doc ***** capt falcon IMO
doc goes 70% against shiek due to zero to death chaingrab.....
falco its 50/50
other then that doc *****......IMO
doc doesn't counter anyone nor is he countered by anyone IMO.....
doc ***** capt falcon IMO
doc goes 70% against shiek due to zero to death chaingrab.....
falco its 50/50
other then that doc *****......IMO
Roman.
Smash Champion
doc>falco any day of the week... fox is a little more trouble but not enough to really be a counter
personally if there were a lot of good yoshi's i think that'd be a doc counter. too good
personally if there were a lot of good yoshi's i think that'd be a doc counter. too good
boss8
Smash Hero
i mean when i enter a match i dont think about omg your my counter....no i just think about....
"ok im doc and im goona win no matter how im goona find a way to win period"
otg
Smash Master
I feel you, but that's how you would feel no matter who your main is. The thing about Doc is if you play smart you can try to adapt to any situation.
I feel that Doc does really well about Falco, maybe even a 55% - 45%. Sheik might be 50/50 on a good day though. You need to GET a grab in, and even then if there are platforms and what not your risking losing it.
you better not be using chinesah for your base in that arguement.
That man REFUSED to nair you.
boss8
Smash Hero
i've beaten chinesahh....G-reg....darkrain....juke...korn.....hax......i still dont find falcon to be a problem.
otg
Smash Master
boss8
Smash Hero
soap
Smash Hero
make sure u record it this time
otg
Smash Master
Definitely agree, no jonz
boss8
Smash Hero
chinesahh im not spreading anything all i said wuz i beat your falcon....WTF are u complaining about??? you are ten times better then me anyways......i just find capt falcon easy to fight......
you see what smash does to people???
i can careless if u go around and tell people you beat me...."but you dont" therefore good **** travis....
and u are clearly amazing in brawl me and chozenone lost to you and light....
also at cyberden your soo good i had to resort to just jumping off the stage.....this has nothing to do with u....just how i do vs capt falcon....
and no im not MM you 50 bucks i'd rather give it to you and say your the **** at melee....
this wont even work next time i come face to face...with TA...Cooter...H2YL....i will probly get flammed or ignored or back talked or 2 faced...im just playing smash....and let the results speak for themselvs..
and now i will get punished...i have a feeling.....
Roman.
Smash Champion
awww that's so cute, i love it when smashers avoid animosity between eachother, it just warms my heart. but seriously, someone has to $50 MM with doc and get it recorded -.-
HomeMadeWaffles
Smash Lord
well i guess ill put my thoughts(which are lame, but yea)
i suck at typing btw
after playing ppl like zhu, ss, falcomist, hguya, bob$(lol) and bunch more here in norcal(i hope im not look like im bragging , my bad if so)
i think sheik is docs worst matchup(dont hurt me)
then after that its toss up.......i guess
(no particular order)(and yea this is my $hitty opinions of matchups)
marth does good against doc
falco does good too
jiggs to
IC's do good(this one im sure about lol)
peach to(its hard for Doc to approach her ,i think.....)
as for falcon i say its a toss up, depending on whose playing
falcon can **** doc
doc can **** falcon
if u space falcon good enough and DI away, u can pretty much take the match, i think it all on DI, u DI bad and get wrecked, but if u can grab combo that helps i guess( i approch falcon with full jump D-airs and utilts lol )
they both can combo each other...ETC.....ima nub.....and so on
but yea
thats my thoughts on counters lol
and umm my bad if it sucked
i suck at typing btw
after playing ppl like zhu, ss, falcomist, hguya, bob$(lol) and bunch more here in norcal(i hope im not look like im bragging , my bad if so)
i think sheik is docs worst matchup(dont hurt me)
then after that its toss up.......i guess
(no particular order)(and yea this is my $hitty opinions of matchups)
marth does good against doc
falco does good too
jiggs to
IC's do good(this one im sure about lol)
peach to(its hard for Doc to approach her ,i think.....)
as for falcon i say its a toss up, depending on whose playing
falcon can **** doc
doc can **** falcon
if u space falcon good enough and DI away, u can pretty much take the match, i think it all on DI, u DI bad and get wrecked, but if u can grab combo that helps i guess( i approch falcon with full jump D-airs and utilts lol )
they both can combo each other...ETC.....ima nub.....and so on
but yea
thats my thoughts on counters lol
and umm my bad if it sucked
unknown522
Some guy
Who counters doc:
the top 8 characters
that is all
the top 8 characters
that is all
Stryk9
Smash Journeyman
i dunno bout counterrrrsss,
but does well vs doc:
Marth- too much range, that is all.
Shiek- Yea, you can chain grab her, we know, but you'll still get ftilted like 5 million times to fair to no recovery ever. You can't recover vs this ho.
Fox: is fox.
Jiggs: edge guard
Falcon: Yea he can **** you, but you can **** the complete **** out of his abd recovery, so its like your gimping vs his extremely dope combos.
Ganon: a skilled ganon can completely wreck you if they outspace you. so always pill spam like a scared bytch, and play on big maps plzzz.
but does well vs doc:
Marth- too much range, that is all.
Shiek- Yea, you can chain grab her, we know, but you'll still get ftilted like 5 million times to fair to no recovery ever. You can't recover vs this ho.
Fox: is fox.
Jiggs: edge guard
Falcon: Yea he can **** you, but you can **** the complete **** out of his abd recovery, so its like your gimping vs his extremely dope combos.
Ganon: a skilled ganon can completely wreck you if they outspace you. so always pill spam like a scared bytch, and play on big maps plzzz.
hoopspr226
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2007
- Messages
- 279
For the Doc players:
What are your general strategies for facing Marth?
In my experience, pills dont work too well because Marth slices through them pretty easily. In addition, he seems to be able to get Doc off the edge and then edgeguard him far too easily.
What are your general strategies for facing Marth?
In my experience, pills dont work too well because Marth slices through them pretty easily. In addition, he seems to be able to get Doc off the edge and then edgeguard him far too easily.