Toon Link's Match-up Discussion #9:Wario

Why wont you DIEEE?!?!

WAH WAH WAHHH!!
WAH WAH WAHHH!!
WAH WAH WAHHH!!
WAH WAH WAHHH!!

Wario's DI outclasses TL's already good DI, so Bair wont be as useful as other characters.

Sasuke knows everything about this matchup, let's let him make a huge post about it :D. I actually don't know a lot about this matchup, the Warios I've played have all been pretty bad.

vbdood1337 said:

Sasuke knows everything about this matchup, let's let him make a huge post about it :D. I actually don't know a lot about this matchup, the Warios I've played have all been pretty bad.

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Your right. >_>
I should just make a small list of what I don't know how to handle after I'm done.

I just played a few matches with my friend whos a decent Wario, so I can throw a few things out there.
Be wary of the bike, It stops for no man, only a bomb.

Wario can make getting back on the edge a serious headache, I suggest bringing a bomb with you every time you attempt to get back on the stage.

His Dsmash (though rarely used) lasts for a long time, but is basically harmless after the initial startup, Punish the ending lag.

When the waft is fully charged, It is a killing machine, when Wario starts to glow, get defensive.

Rarely will a Wario leave his bike on the stage, but if he does, do everything you can to get him off the edge stage, bike intact, his recovery without the bike is rather poor and is easily edgehogged.

His F-smash has invincibilty frames, thats something you'll want to avoid.

Wario has great aerial DI, consecutive bairs are difficult to land.

for me , camping Wario seems to be an issue, it goes well for a few seconds then I find myself on the receiving end of a Bair or bike.

I'm just going to do the special moves and go to bed. I'm realllyyy tired.
Also, you might be surprised at how intelligent my post is coming from me. =P

Wario's Special Moves

Neutral B-
The bite or "eat" as me and Ray call it. It out prioritizes everything. EVERYTHING. Close Zairs,F-smash, Ftilt, you name it. It'll suck you in if your close behind him even. That means he can get you even if you try to Jab combo/F-smash when close behind him. It comes out fast and isn't really easy to see coming onscreen. The downside of the move is that it makes an obnoxiously loud and obvious noise when coming out. The "NAHHH" sound he makes when he opens his mouth means move the hell out of the way.The best angle I'd go for would be right on the back of his head from a northeast/northwest angle (see pic below). Use Fair, Nair, or Bair. I suggest Bair. If he does manage to get you however, struggle. It's just like being grabbed. He can bite you too, which is basically just a grab attack. Once you get out, jump or something. Most Warios will just run up to you again and go for another B. Then they just keep doing it. A Bite chain. Don't fall for that crap. Don't try to airdodge, that move lasts forever. Don't try to attack, you'll lose. Just get out of the way. Another downside of this move is that once he opens his mouth, he can't move. Just hit him from the angle I told you about or Zair.
[Where you should try to hit him]



Side B-
The Bike. **** the bike. So annoying. Okay, listen to me. If theres a Wario coming at you with a bike, GRAB. Don't do any other move. There are only few places you can actually hit him while hes roaring at you (see pic below). They all just hit the bike and you end up as roadkill. I know, I know "were Toon Link, our grabs too risky". Yeah...no, graaabbbb. The chain just swoops out and plucks him off his bike. It doesn't even take good timing. This kind of stuff leaves them awestruck. Throw him forwards away from the bike. The bike just rolls past you without hitting you. If your in the air and can't grab, Zair or bomb. Once you have him off his bike, keep the bike alive. Don't beat on it. He can't recover for crap without it. Just get in front of it and spam arrows till he approaches. He has to try to destroy the bike and fight you at the same time. Just keep him at bay. It shouldn't be that hard. Also, if you have to, you can hit the bike to regenerate moves (use D-tilt). But seriously, don't do that unless you have to. While a Warios recovering on his bike, this is your most advantageous time. Free Dairs. It's like hes in the air, on a pretty much set course, and can't airdodge. I love these moments. Go for a Dair when edgeguarding his bike recovery. If you miss him, you'll hit the bike. Your SAFE. When Wario jumps off his bike its some huge leap, so you can try Dairing from very high above him if you think hes going to jump off. You'll hit the bike if you miss anyway so its fine. Wario can pose and tilt his bike up. The pose just leaves him move vulnerable (they won't do that unless its to get a laugh or something). The tilt means you have to hit him from behind. When he tilts it, try Zairing.
[shaded areas are areas you cannot hit him]



Up B -
This is my most hated move in the game. I'm not kidding. The only advise I have for this move is, Don't try to edgehog it. Even with the "let go of the edge, Zair, pull back up to get invulnerability frames" technique. No, that doesn't work. This move doesn't autograb the edge. Dair him from the stage. The Dair should just barely stay on the level, don't use it off the level. Dair his fingertips. (see pic. I couldn't get one of him at the edge bear with me, the arrow should a liiiitle more to the right). This move lasts longer then you'd think it does. And even if he just hits you with the last part, you get sent far enough so you can't punish him.
[Arrow points to where you should Dair]



Down B-
The Waft or "fart". This isn't really much to worry about until it has some charge. Don't let him hit you with this when hes edgegaurding you! He can use this move to recover also, so watch out for that. Dair can get him though if you see it coming (which isn't hard. He uses it when he has to). I'll separate this into categories:

Fully charged- It does 40% and has a hugggeeee hitbox. yuppp...Okay, so Wario gets super armor right at the beginning of the waft (see pics below). Just spot dodge it when he uses it close to you. If he tries to throw you up (or just when your above him) and use it, Dair him or do a midair dodge. I'd go with Dair. It's really the just best thing to do, theres really no risk or disadvantage or anything. And if the Wario sees the airdodge coming, he'll just wait a second and then use it. You'll be screwed. Dair it guys.
Somewhat charged- Get ready for some "wtf" moments. Warios fart does more knockback NOT fully charged.I know.....I know....But it does do less damage. It's REALLY fast and can catch you off guard (but by then it'll probably be too late). Honestly theres nothing you can do but predict it. They'll try to use it when you have a decent percent and are close to the edge. Just avoid it.
Not charged-...punish him. It takes a while for him to get the waft back. A good decent Wario shouldn't even use a not charged waft, but if he accidentally does, punish. It does no damage or anything and he just stands there like an idiot.

VULNERABLE--------------------------------------------------------INVULNERABLE
-----------------------------


{Smashes and other stuff coming tomorrow}

Grabbing the bike sounds too good to be true. I'll try that next time when I face a spammy wario

sasukebowser said:

This move doesn't autograb the edge.

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Wow, I did not know this. When you got all of your dair spikes in your combo vids, I thought the wario was just bad and not grabbing the ledge...

Anyways, great post. it's so funny to see the look on a wario's face when you try to dair but miss and hit his bike. they're like "WTF!"

vbdood1337 said:

Wow, I did not know this. When you got all of your dair spikes in your combo vids, I thought the wario was just bad and not grabbing the ledge...

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lol if it did I'd quit this game. It actually does, but at like the LAST few frames and if they're hands just barely reach the edge. To the point where it doesn't really matter enough to make a difference. It won't mess you up though trust me.

vbdood1337 said:

Anyways, great post. it's so funny to see the look on a wario's face when you try to dair but miss and hit his bike. they're like "WTF!"

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QFT.
Mines already used to it though. I just like saying "I spiked your dam bike! You should be embarrassed".

I applaud you Suaske, impressive thorough knowlege, Impressive.

Great stuff, Sasuke. I kinda wanna know what you think about his A moves (ie: smashes, tilts, jabs).

I haven't played many Warios, but from I can tell, his F-smash is super fast and strong. It does have considerable after-lag, however. What do you think of it?

Bomber7 said:

I applaud you Suaske, impressive thorough knowlege, Impressive.

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Thanks a lot. =)
This is like one of two things I know about. haha

ZeroXMachine said:

Great stuff, Sasuke. I kinda wanna know what you think about his A moves (ie: smashes, tilts, jabs).

I haven't played many Warios, but from I can tell, his F-smash is super fast and strong. It does have considerable after-lag, however. What do you think of it?

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Thanks.
Hahaha Warios Fsmash. That move I know how to counter in like every way from how much my friend spams it. I'll make a post with stuff like that right now I'm getting on my Wii first to get images though.

Alright, TL vs Wario I see

For Chomp, just use a spaced attack with even subpar range and you will beat it out. The trick is to either hit him before the Chomp hitbox comes out, or to space well (the Chomp hitbox won't grab you if you are far enough away, which isn't too far). I also don't do the Chomp to Chomp "chain", it doesn't really work on the smaller characters.

I don't Spam Fsmash, I do need to use it more but that's another story, but usually when I use that sucker you can guarantee it will be fresh. It kills TL pretty well, try to avoid it, even if it means staying in your shield for 3 seconds before you roll away.

Waft is sexy. Santi and I collided the Waft and his Dair and we both took a hit. Also, fuly charged Waft has INSANE vertical knockback instead of horizontal. He can kill you off the top at pretty low %'s with it so be afraid of being above him when it is fully charged. It is more useful half charged or 3/4 charged though, those kill really good off the sides and they come out faster. 3/4 charged Waft can kill TL at around 50% from the center of FD without DI.

Oh, and I'm a good Wario that CAN hit with a weaker waft and get away with it. I even hit Santi with one in the last match vs Santi, and yes I was expecting it to be more charged

I like to shield grab a lot with Wario, it is something to look for since his grab range is deceiving. Also like to do aerials OOS, so be aware of your spacing when you hit his shield with anything.



For the general matchup: Wario likes the air, you like the air. Wario is short ranged, you beat him overall in range. Use it, abuse it, do whatever it takes to keep Wario from getting close. You also have projectiles, use them the best you can. Cause Wario is one dodging bast*** from the very depths of hell, and he will catch you eventually... maybe. Wario is hard to hit if he plays it safe, yet he can go from being safe to OMFG Where did that Dair come from in like .5 seconds. So be on your toes.

Numbers: 6:4 Wario, possibly 5:5, not sure I need to play more TL's and have more really good TL's play good Wario's and go over their matches.

......Do you like Melee Luigi dr.mario guy?

sasukebowser said:

......Do you like Melee Luigi dr.mario guy?

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I actually played as Luigi a bit in Melee, but Doc and Falco fit my style better. Why do you ask?

dr.mario guy said:

I actually played as Luigi a bit in Melee, but Doc and Falco fit my style better. Why do you ask?

Spoiler

Is this a trap?

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....wow
Would you happen to be my friend Raymond? ._.
He uses Brawl Wario. And his first main in Melee was Doc (still uses him). Second main was Luigi (and still is).
He ***** pretty hard with Melee Luigi.
You guys would get along. =P

Well, hate to disappoint you, but my name is not Raymond obviously now. I never mained Luigi for tournaments or anything, just played him for fun. He is automatically my buddy for using Wario though

Is he your Wario friend that you play against regularly? Does he have a smashboards account and the time to come post in here maybe?

Haha okay. Alright cool I guess you guys have reverse Melee preferences.

Yuuppp. I play him more then anyone else.
Yeah, he has one but Idk why he made it. He doesn't even use it.
Ughh I'm still trying to get pictures from my SD card onto my computer to continue the discussion. >_<

ZSSario: Easier or harder than Wario?




Sorry, couldn't resist.

Shouldn't exist ... oh no ... shouldn't ...

I appreciate the help D.MG. ^_^
Sorry I didn't mention it before. It's good to have someone on the other side to compare "notes" if you will.
*starts writing a post about smashes*

Wario's Smash Attacks (approximate hitboxs outlined)

Fsmash -
Alright. people who play Wario hate this move. Like a lot of Wario's attack, it has like a "two animation" setup going on. Setup for the move, and the move itself. Warios Fsmash is FAST. You need good reflexes to avoid it. When you see the first animation first pic below), SHIELD! Thats the only thing you can do at that point. Learn to perfect shield this attack. It shouldn't be that hard. once yor used to it. The initial animation should always clue you to shield. Not the second animation lingers a little (see second pic below). It lasts a liiiittle longer then you think it would. This is graet if you perfectshielded it, because you have some time to hit him. This move gives Wario Super Armor somewhere between the first and second animations. It doesn't last very long, but its there. Don't try to hit a Wario using Fsmash. Also, This move and hit you even if your BEHIND him. So watch out for that. He can also use another Fmash right after using one at a pretty good speed. Watch out for that one too. A Wario throws you down, watch out for a Fsmash (or a charged one for mindgames).
FSmash

Start-Up:


Hit:


Dsmash -
Ok,,, I honestly don't know much about this move because its not very.........good? Warios have much better options. This move lasts FOREVER and covers decent area (see pic below). It's also somewhere of a viable edgegaurd, so look out for that.The start of the move does decent knockback, but after that it gets really weak. Perfect shield it (you can even just plain shield it). If you do, you literally have like 2 seconds to hit him (just make sure not to get hit by a weaker hit of his Dmash). I suggest making it go like this: Shielded the Dsmash, backup a little, then a little charged Fsmash. Once he gets up, he gets up pretty quick, so don't doddle.
DSmash


Usmash -
Ehh this moves weird. its not exactly bad...but its not very great. It's decent I suppose. It starts up pretty fast. but its possible to dodge (see first pic below). Smash DI out of this move! Just don't get hit by the last hit, and you should be able to attack him while hes still doing the move. The beginning hitbox is HUGE. like WTF huge, but it gets smaller after the initial hit (see second and third pics below). The big hitbox at the start helps Wario draw you into the attack. Shielding this move does practically nothing, so jsut get out of the way. Expect it when your above or VERY close to him. Wario can also DACUS with this move, so you should watch out if you see him sliding from halfway across the stage. Just shield it and punish.

Usmash

i secondary wario... but there's not much to add since sasuke nailed it.

Anyway, a good wario will know that if he wheelies his bike, he goes in the air. Not sure if you can grab him then! The best option is a short hopped aerial of your own.

In addition, downsmash is kind of a weird move. If youre standing next to the wario and shielding when he uses it, you can drop your shield and attack even though you're standing in the move. If he uses the move from far away and you walk into it thinking it won't hit you anymore, it will. It's a very underused move but this move has pretty good knockback so a good wario will only use it when you're at higher percents. Watch out for it.

sasuke hasn't done the tilts yet but i'll chip in what i have to offer. There are 3 ways to use f-tilt. Depending on where the joystick is held, wario will either punch upwards, downwards or straight ahead. UPwards for more knockback, downwards for tripping and straight ahead for failing to punch upwards or downwards lol. It's start up time is decent but it's just good enough that all you can do is block it. It's kind of hard to punish. Uptilt is a pretty rare move to see because it has some pretty nasty start up lag and it doesnt have the knockback of f-tilt so don't expect to see this too much. It's easy to punish with a smash. Downtilt is a great move because its quick and sets up for fsmash or aerials. Be careful, block, and counter with a quick move.

Wario's d-aerial is my favorite. It's great for starting combos. Usually, most people don't fall for your combos but d-air hits almost all the time anyway as long as the wario doesn't start spamming it. Block this move. That's it. Nair, as most people know, has a double hit box but only decent priority so if you see a wario approaching with a nair, try hitting him out of it. B-air is kind of crappy but has decent knockback. If the wario misses, he falls on his back and you can punish him. Again, the priority is only decent. There's also f-air which is a GET OUT OF THE WAY MOVE! It only does about 7% but it has ridiculously goo d priority! I've fair-fair-fair-fair-half wafted-->ko'd an opponent lol. it was awesome. Don't try to fight it. Just DI away from it. Lastly, the up-air is warios best killing move (other than the half waft) but it's easy to see coming and not hard to punish in the air. Watch out for the short hop--> up air landing cancel. It can hit just about everyone if done right.

I think that covers everything about wario since sasuke already did an awesome job.

stnapknah said:

In addition, downsmash is kind of a weird move. If youre standing next to the wario and shielding when he uses it, you can drop your shield and attack even though you're standing in the move.

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Yeah, I suspect that something is going on with the attacks of some characters where their move will only hit an opponent once or twice in the entire attack. If it get's blocked, the rest of the attack can't hit the opponent. If they run into the attack later in the animation but weren't hit previously, they will get hit. This might have been added so that something like Wario's Down smash doesn't turn into a rigged version of Toon links Up-B if the whole animation continues to do hits... I think this applies to most characters.

So really, despite the lingering animation, Wario's Dsmash only has one hitbox. By shielding it, it loses that hitbox and makes Wario extremely vulnerable.

Its two I think. If you shield the Initial hit, theres another very weak one near the end.
Or my mind might be playing tricks on me.

Thanks for your contribution stnapknah. It's really appreciated. ^_^
*is going to add tilts to this today*

He has two hitboxes on dsmash, but if you shield either he loses them both. Fair and Ftilt destroy any of TL's projectiles that isn't a bomb, and ftilt kills TL fresh at around 120% at about 1/3 of bfield. Bite only bites moves that involve leaning into him, and only if you're close enough to where part of your body fits inside the sparkle radius that appears when he opens his mouth. Really though, Wario has the advantage in this matchup because of weight and killing power above all else.

Your best chance against Wario is to camp the hell out of them, and predict the bike when it comes. Luckily TL is hard to gimp, or this matchup would be overwhelming for Wario. Space your disjointed attacks well, and try to outmindgame the Wario. Also, some gutsy Warios (such as myself) will attempt to eat offstage bombs thrown at him if the TL is nearby, b/c that imploding animation actually has good knockback, and will leave you beyond recovery.

Take Wario to a platformed stage, where you can camp better and abuse your range over him.

well my friend plays a very annoying wario, and i gotta say, that spacing is the biggest factor in this matchup, know when to avoid wario and when to punish, and yeah, as stated earlier, you can Dair on the very edge of the platform and spike warios fingers, or even if he gets on to the edge slightly it can still spike him, but Dair is probably my main kill move vs wario.

Wario's Tilts

Utilt -
Probably the most useless tilt. It doesn't have much use, so you don't need to worry about it so much. It comes out pretty slow compared to the rest of Wario's moves and doesn't do much damage/knock back.The hitbox is mainly above him but can hit if your to the side of him too, but its not THAT big (see pic below), I suggest just doing a mid-air jump after getting hit by this move. If you shield it, punish the lag.


Dtilt -
A little more useful then Utilt.This move comes out at a decently fast rate. A Wario will probably use it when your are about to land in front of them. If you get hit by this move, try to move away from them and airdodge(and probably Zair afterwards). This move can be used in succession pretty quickly, so if you shield one, you can probably expect another one coming. If you manage to shield it and are pretty close to him, I'd go with a jab attack(facing him) or a SH Bair(facing away from him). The hitbox has a nice size in front of him. Also they might try to grab you after a Dtilt, so be cautious. A Wario might do it after you shield one of their other moves also.


Ftilt -
The most useful of Warios tilts. It has a large amount of startup lag for one of Wario's moves, so prepare your shield when you see Wario do a little circular wind-up motion with his arm . He also leans back on one leg before the move(see first pic below). This move KILLS! You should expect this only as a killing move for the most part, so at high percentages, watch out for it. Don't let this move be what kills you guys,expect it. It has more forward range then his Fsmash and a pretty big hitbox. Expect this move near the edges of the level. DI upwards after getting hit by it, it has huge horizontal knock back.

Wario's Throws [Wario's grab attack hits you somewhere you don't want to be hit =(]

Back Throw -
This is probably Wario's most useless throw. It has fairly decent power and will send you back a lil. DI up if you can, it will give you a little boast so you can pull out a bomb safely.(see pic). He can't really do anything to you after this throw. Don't really expect it unless your near the edge and it would kill you.


Up Throw
Almost as useless as back throw. Sends you up a decent amount and might kill you at very high percentages. DI to the left or right, preferable the way he was facing when he threw you (see pic). It will send you high enough to pull out a bomb, so do so. Throw bombs down at him until you reach the level so he can't hit you with his Uair. At VERY VERY low percentages a Wario MIGHT follow up with a Utilt/Usmash. When you have decent amount of damage, watch out for the Uair.


Front Throw
Okay, this throw is Wario's best killing choice. If your at the edge, and Wario is in back of you facing the edge, watch out. Just jump behind him and don't let him grab you. If he does, DI up and TRY to survive. Not much else to say.


Down Throw
Wario's best throw.One of the best throws in the game IMO. It will send you behind him a little and theres not much you can do. Try to jump. WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT JUST STAY STILL! DI away i guess.
After a Down throw the Wario can(see pic below):

Fsmash (shield it)
CHARGE and Fsmash (lol mindgames) [HOLD shield, shield roll]
Turn around and grab you again (this is why jumping is your best option)

Nice job on this matchup Sasukebowser.
It will help me later on.
Now all u need are his aerials right?
I believe Wario's fair is beastly, it might not be tho.

Wario's Aerials (AKA, why your screwed)

Warios Aerials are his ultimate weapon. =/
And they can all be done in a short hop.
Arrows/boomerangs help a lot here.

Fair -
See this move(See pic below)? Prepare to see it a lot. Alright, so heres how it goes: A Wario SHs toward you, Fairs, and retreats before you can do anything. The only way you can MAYBE hit him is to perfect shield his Fair and Utilt. But perfect shielding every time is pretty hard (especially considering how many times hes going to use this move). If a Warios approaching you and is going is Fair, shield it and SH Zair. Thats pretty much your best option. This move is pretty standard, not that much damage/ knock back, but the animation completes in a short hop, so no lag. This is a move Wario uses to poke you (somewhat similar to Zair, without as much range).


Bair -
You probably wont see much of this move. Wario's worst aerial (not a bad move though). It's pretty easy to see coming compared to the rest of Wario's airials. At the start of the move he seems as if hes going to lean back (see first pic below). When its over, he looks like hes lying down (see second pic below). This move actually has some decent knock back. It might kill you if you have enough damage and are close to the ledge. As i said before, don't expect this move much. The only real reason they'd use it is because your behind them and it would kill you if it hit.


Uair -
This is Wario's best aerial move for killing. It does a VERY good job of it too. The only real way to see this coming is when he spreads his hands wide to clap (see pic below). Wario's tend to use this move while landing. After the attack animation of this move is over, it has practically no lag. Don't expect to punish this move. Just try to avoid being above Wario as much as you can when your at high percentages so he can't kill you with this.



Dair -
I'm sorry guys...This move is TOO ****. It can be completed in a short hop and is used to poke at you(see first pic below). It works just like Fair, they use it towards you in a short hop and retreat. Honestly, you'll see this move more then anything in a match against Wario. If they hit you with it, they can follow up with a grab, Fsmash, ect. Airdodge and try to get away if they hit you with this. When a Wario tries to approach you with this, shield it and move back(then approach him). You NEED good spacing against Wario. Theres a few frames of punishment at the end of this move (see second pic below), but not much. Try to punish this move ONLY when you KNOW its over. Try a Utilt or SH Zair.


Nair -
This move looks like a little skydive (see first pic below). It makes a weird noise, so you can always tell hes using it. It does decent knock back at the initial hit. After the initial hit, he swoops around in a circle (see second pic below). The second hit does way less knock back. They will probably try to follow up with an aerial, or a Fsmash if they hit you on the ground. When hit by this move try to shield or get away.

FINALLY done. ~_~

...

now for the actual discussion, lol?

Wow, Sasuke, you really know your stuff great advice.

Hmmm now yes the disscusion... Lets hear it whom shall start?

VietGeek said:

...

now for the actual discussion, lol?

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DISCUSS!!! ^____^

*sleeps*