Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

Agh, Scar, what should I do against Marth's who just sit at the edge (Say it's FD)?!

An incredible question, since Marths who just sit at the edge are roughly 6 times better than Marths that ever move from the edge. Your main concern is to not get grabbed, which is why jumping right in is such a bad idea. Most of my Marth experience is vs Cactuar, who will kill CF from virtually every grab or hit, so I have a very conservative style vs Marth, which will certainly factor into my answer.

Marth is very dangerous when he can run back and forth, which is usually most people's entire styles. Run away and then the other way and then away again until they grab you. If the player is literally just sitting at the ledge, this mobility is gone and you can of course punish his sheild with knee to jab, which as we all know cannot be shieldgrabbed. Practice your gentlemans and voila, shffl knee>jab jab gentleman>run away.

Odds are he's not just doing this though, he's dding back and forth AT the ledge. This is a very difficult kind of Marth to get used to. Usually simply jumping in as far as you can with nair will hit him; unless he's very good he will not shield it, WDback turn around grab you, which would suck for you. The point is to nair behind him.

Of course you don't want to jump off, and of course this will not work each and every time, it's probably just your best move. Try different things like dj in and dair in between his DD, or just sh dair in (dair gives incredible shieldstun), or jump past him and bair. Even raptor boost works vs certain Marth styles.

Anyways, if he really is just sitting there either do the knee>gentleman thing b/c it's awesome or try to bait a grab and run in there with a grab of your own.

Again, this is a very gay and difficult Marth to handle.

Da Shuffla said:

Okay, I have a certain "button dilemma." I don't know whether I should shffl with Z or the c-stick. I can do it with both, but the Z sometimes makes me do JC grabs. But with the c-stick I have "dead air time" after my shorthop before I get to the stick. Both feel comfortable. Should I go with Z, or just try to speed up with the c-stick?

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Do you shorthop with the X/Y buttons or with the control stick? I use the control stick so I can jump and do an areal with the c-stick at the same time.

A random tip you can do against Falco is if they grab the edge and LHDL you can CC jab->gentleman after the first laser and hit them before the 2nd comes out which is also right when they'd lose invincibility. Maybe people do this already tho I dunno.

Magus420 said:

A random tip you can do against Falco is if they grab the edge and LHDL you can CC jab->gentleman after the first laser and hit them before the 2nd comes out which is also right when they'd lose invincibility. Maybe people do this already tho I dunno.

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I've seen Darkrain just run up and fsmash. This one sounds more Magus-ey though.

F-smash would only work if they don't use their invincibility right. If they do then the 1st laser comes out while still invincible and would hit you first and interrupt the f-smash.

Magus what would you do vs a Marth who just sat near the edge waiting to grab you and throw you off? lol Sounds like M2K.

Scar said:

Most of my Marth experience is vs Cactuar, who will kill CF from virtually every grab or hit, so I have a very conservative style vs Marth, which will certainly factor into my answer.

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Tee hee. I don't camp the ledge though. Mostly because I can do that anywhere on any stage at pretty much any percent.

I'd do the Moonwalk -> Taunt -> Get Grabbed by the Marth combo.

LOL I dunno. I don't play Marths with Falcon very often and when I do they don't camp the edge that badly.

Havokbringer said:

Since Scar doesn't doesn't like counter pick stages (which I totally understand why) I'll put the 2 most usefull against falco.

Brinstar and Kongo Jungle 64.

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Kongo Jungle is just great for Falcon in general. It's pretty much my go-to counterpick. Just make sure you know the ledge.

Scar said:

lol Thx and I suck @ moonwalking too, if you figure it out let me know.

I'll respond about Falco too, gimme a bit to think about it. Falco is gay.

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Hahaha Yeah no prob., I practice everyday, I'm trying to get the hang of it. Sure, I'll tell you if I find out a easy way. Agreed, Falco is gay. He has no R.A.P.E move like the knee, he is not manly, he's just a bird. No speed Matching Falcon's, Doesn't have manly golden nipple$, and all he does is spam laser. I mean No Offense to all Falco players, I'm Just giving you my own opinion

Just running up and fsmashing sounds isai'ish lol. He does random **** and hits people with it lol (especially when he's sandbagging).
But would that really work? >.> I mean the first laser should just interrupt it.



Oh and I have some more combo questions ...


1. I was wondering a thing about uair->regrab when your opponent DI's down and away that you posted about earlier:
Does it work higher/mid percent (like 30-50 or so)? I can't do it.
Im doing the uair very early out the jump btw, so I hit them on way up, and then I land almost at the same time as them.
Am I just to slow? or should I just tech chase/punish flubbed tech after this?


2. Is it possible to do anything else out of the dthrow then tech chase on semi floaties if they DI down and away? There's supposed to be some pseudo-CG if they do this but I can never seem to reach them in time + I see lots of pros just tech chasing. Am I just to slow here also?


3. When do you usually start comboing uthrow->arials? (which %)

btw Ive been testing percentages myself in training mode (w/ marth, because he's gay and i like hitting him). I can combo uthrow->uair at 18%, but I can't combo it into nair until 25%... and according to SDM uair is only 1 frame faster >.> so that's really weird lol
Anyone know the lowest possible percentages to combo into arials from uthrow? I wish I had AR so I could test this crap
[percentages are BEFORE the uthrow and the uthrow is fresh (fresh=not stale). A fresh uthrow does 7% dmg I think (this is important since hitstun is calculated after dmg)]

I usually see pros do uthrow->arials at earlier % then that, am I just timing it wrong or do the pros just use it even if it isnt a real combo? (maybe its just hard for the opponent to escape or something )


4. Falcon's spot dodge sucks and if you avoid someone's grab with it you just get hit in the lag afterwards (cuz their lag usually ends before yours). What do you usually do to avoid grabs instead? >.> (I spot-dodge alot with my other chars)
off course you can roll but you won't be able to punish your opponent if you do that (cuz rolls lag to much)


Lots of questions lol
Thanks for any input. (even if you're not scar)

The Knee does Own, and there is no first hit. Right before trying to laser BAM!! You Got Kneed.

I mean no offense. Haha

Scar said:

1) Correct, it is not
2) I'm from Philadelphia
3) See you @ Event 52

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OMG forgot you were from PA. Well same area. v_v and see you there.

Better represent new school falcons.

LOL at Magus...does moonwalk have any other purpose then an edgehog?

OMG this thread is moving so fast (too fast). Scar is rediculously popular.[/asIputmorepostsinthread]

Guts-Rage said:

He has no R.A.P.E move like the knee

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Knee, meet down air. Down air, knee.

Doggalina said:

Knee, meet down air. Down air, knee.

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That is Real ****, Approved. Yesz!!

junglefever6478 said:

LOL at Magus...does moonwalk have any other purpose then an edgehog?

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getting extra momentum for a backwards jump. thats actually useful.
but whats even more useful with the moonwalk is being sexy

i heard if you divide Falcon's knee by zero you get a free poptart, jk. but seriously. this thread is helping me out alot. I hope i'm helping with my tiny bits of advice

Scar said:

Magus what would you do vs a Marth who just sat near the edge waiting to grab you and throw you off? lol Sounds like M2K.

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if its M2K you can just start talking about how much he sucks because he lost to Mango.

On the campy Marth thing, you can camp him just as well as he can you, except Falcon's dd is better and sexier, being patient can work against Marth surprisingley well I've found. Landing raptor boost during the few frames of vulnerability he has between his shdf or shfair uair can makes it really easy to start a combo. Marth is my favorite matchup for sure, its just must easier for me to combo him than space animals (im only mediocre at tech chasing, though in theory its too easy, there's only 3 directions, I just predict wrong sometimes.)

scar is amazing and i love him ^_^

also ... he IS the most electrifying smasher

scar/anyone what can you say about tech chasing?

it gets easier with experience.

At the ledge, they have even fewer options for teching. It does get easier with experience. I need to work on mine, though.

You? Elite-pro? Oh lord, I can't wait for Jiano and Darkrain to tear you a new one at Event 52.

any tips for getting grabs against fox? his shine is ridiculous.

So i have alot of questions about falcon...
Before i start asking away i just wanna state that im not a nub, i just suicide alot with falcon but i main falco and if i do say so myself, im pretty kickass for not going to many tourneys. im sure ide get ownded by any pro but ide put up a fight.

ok on with the falcon questions.
first off, what are falcons best stages? From my experience i would say that DL64, BF and FD are the best for falcon. i have some trouble on smaller stages like Yoshi's story and FoD because im much better at long combos, im not exactly the best at tacking on damage with one or two hit combos. I just have trouble working with the confined space is all. but yes best stage?

next, this is kind of building off my last question. whats a good way to tack on damage without long combos? i think the reason im bad at it is because there isnt a very large melee scene here in the bay so im forced to play against coms, which can be frustrating to fight against if your playing like you would against another person.

i think im almost done... maybe any tips on training? i have some trouble with some of the double jump knees, like once i carry them off the edge with Uairs/Nairs, then jump off the stage with a uair ill either miss the second jump to knee and just fall and die, or i wont have enough range and ill fall short and have to recover and start over. and for scar jumping... i cant even walljump off the ledge at yoshi's story properly.

i cant think of any other aspect my falcon is missing (there are alot tho) so i think im done asking questions for now.

Sorry if this is an annoying or long post, you dont have to answer it if u dont feel the need.
Thanks Scar! keep kneeing and GRAAHHing and being the most electrifying man in melee!

I got to play you a few times at mm13 (falcon dittos on pokefloats). For the most part, you ***** me, but every once in a while I pulled out a few combos. It wasn't the execution that got me owned, we can both combo the hell out of things, I think it was your spacing. During our match at PS, I noticed that you used backwards empty SH's to space yourself. I started to do that, and then I managed to take two stocks off of you because if it.

With that in mind, do you know of any other good techniques for spacing/mindgames?

Finally I'm back from Mass Madness. Plenty of videos to share with everyone in the near future. Enough of all that, let's talk about what YOU, the People, want to talk about.

Guts-Rage said:

Falco is not manly, he's just a bird.

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LMAO

MikeHaggarTHAKJB said:

But would that really work? >.> I mean the first laser should just interrupt it.

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idk I think he cc'd it and then the fsmash ducked under the second one.

I was wondering a thing about uair->regrab when your opponent DI's down and away that you posted about earlier:
Does it work higher/mid percent (like 30-50 or so)? I can't do it.

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Talking about %s here is somewhat useless since it depends on %, DI, character, etc. This will work vs any DI that is too low for nair to hit. If you're landing when they are at 30-50, then you're probably going too slow anyways, but reliably uthrow>uair>regrab works very frequently starting at 30% on Marth.

Once I start doing something new, my eye trains itself to do it whenever it'll work. Hopefully once you start to see it, you'll start reacting to that specific DI and start grabbing instinctively.

Is it possible to do anything else out of the dthrow then tech chase on semi floaties if they DI down and away? There's supposed to be some pseudo-CG if they do this but I can never seem to reach them in time + I see lots of pros just tech chasing. Am I just to slow here also?

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Yes, it comes with experience so if you know people you don't mind pissing off, just do that over and over. Dash over, watch, dash again.

When do you usually start comboing uthrow->arials? (which %)

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It depends on the character, but I do it when it works, which is when hitstun from uthrow is greater than the time it takes for me to jump and uair. Another time honestly is when I uthrow, run and jump towards them, and they're above me.

Again, experience has trained me to do whichever move hits, just keep playing and practicing, try new things, and you'll react to where they are with the appropriate move.

I usually see pros do uthrow->arials at earlier % then that, am I just timing it wrong or do the pros just use it even if it isnt a real combo? (maybe its just hard for the opponent to escape or something )

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idk But I do know that vs almost everyone, dthrow nair is way safer and almost always works @ low %s, and if they DI away then you can tech chase them as discussed before. So grab, dthrow, regrab if they DI in or tech chase if away, and if they're popped up in front of you in place for nair then nair the balls off them and combo from there.

Falcon's spot dodge sucks

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Roll. If you know you can punish after spot dodge then do it, but if you're risking getting hit, just roll. If you can't punish then it doesn't matter anyways.

bahamutz69 said:

first off, what are falcons best stages?

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Of the neutrals, stadium is great b/c the sides are very small, dthrow knee vs peach at the edge will kill at like 50%. FD is usually not great b/c Falcon's recovery is better with more options, and landing on a platform is a very much-needed option. Fountain is horrible, YS depends on the other character (and is always electrifying), Battlefield is Jiano's usual counterpick, idk why but I don't like it b/c it gimps your dj, other than that it's great. And DL64 is great vs marth, and good in general.

next, this is kind of building off my last question. whats a good way to tack on damage without long combos?

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Knee.

any tips on training? i have some trouble with some of the double jump knees,

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You're hitting the button too fast, and uair doesn't have too much hitstun so it's kind of hard to combo uair>dj knee. But yeah, jumping while you're still in uair animation = not jumping.

and for scar jumping... i cant even walljump off the ledge at yoshi's story properly.

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lmao I had been doing it for 2 or 3 months before IKM came out and just recently got good enough to use it a lot. It's pretty tough, you really need to practice but eventually (like everything else) it becomes second nature.

Mokumo said:

With that in mind, do you know of any other good techniques for spacing/mindgames?

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Well idk about all that, but the reason why I was comboing you before you got the chance to combo me was because my nairs kept beating yours. Nairs are very important in Falcon dittos, work on your nair speed and much else will follow. Also your general strategy at this point in your progression towards 2nd most electrifying Falcon ever should probably be "blindly nair at people and then grab or combo if it hits."

Learn nair.

Scar said:

Well idk about all that, but the reason why I was comboing you before you got the chance to combo me was because my nairs kept beating yours. Nairs are very important in Falcon dittos, work on your nair speed and much else will follow. Also your general strategy at this point in your progression towards 2nd most electrifying Falcon ever should probably be "blindly nair at people and then grab or combo if it hits."

Learn nair.

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Word.

I noticed how i would nair and totally miss and then you'd get me with your own right after.

And I AWAIT YOUR VIDEOS BECAUSE I MIGHT BE IN SOME OF THEM

Im pretty sure im not to slow sffling the uair (to grabs) since im doing them so early in the jump that it's low enough to hit jigglypuff, and yet im landing before the auto canceling starts. (And if you do the uair on the first airborne frame, you have to fast fall within the first 2 fast-fallable frames to land before the auto canceling starts. )
I probably don't dash & jc grab fast enough though + I dont have enough forward momentum in my shffl (since I start holding up for the uair during the jump). I'll practice that, or I'll just avoid the uair when they're low and at that percentage (starts trying/testing new things and practicing)

I know these things comes with experience and that you can only become good at comboing through playing, but I just like knowing the best options first. It's how I became good at comboing with fox and any other character I play.

So thanks for telling me the best options and for answering all of my questions, it has helped my comboing alot

So scar do they have to di into it for UAir-Uair-Knee


and ethier way is it Uair into instant knee or wait for the di?

Nocturnalist said:

(Note:i heard SS is good at moon walking because he's left handed..just a note)

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note:
ss IS left handed, and so is Zhu.
and they're both pretty good at moonwalk tricks.
you don't need to be left handed though.

event 52 pleash
hey scar if you have time can i find you and play vs you? I need the sheik v falcon practice lmao

MikeHaggarTHAKJB said:

I probably don't dash & jc grab fast enough though + I dont have enough forward momentum in my shffl (since I start holding up for the uair during the jump).

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I'm curious now though, try it vs a Marth literally any time between 30 and I think 45ish, uthrow uair grab. See if it works and get back to me.

Allin said:

So scar do they have to di into it for UAir-Uair-Knee


and ethier way is it Uair into instant knee or wait for the di?

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Who is they? Marth? And no, vs most chars you should be able to uair uair knee almost all the time at mid %s, floaties that DI up will go too high though so you should just knee them over and over haha.

Uair to knee works very well if they're low enough that you can land after the uair, but uair dj knee is actually not the easiest thing to do.

darkatma said:

note:event 52 pleash
hey scar if you have time can i find you and play vs you? I need the sheik v falcon practice lmao

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Hell yeah bro I'll be sitting at the same TV the whole time recording friendlies for DIODIA.

Edit: And just for future reference, a lot of the time when I say "knee" darkrain would dair, it does just as much damage and if you're good at tech chasing it's definitely the way to go. Darkrain is way smarter than me so if you're gonna take tips from someone I have to say that that's the way to go.

Scar, I tried it:
If they DI the uthrow away so you can dash + uair shffl with lots of forward momentum in the uair shffl (so I'm closer to them when I land) I'm able to regrab them.
This time I focused more on getting as much forward momentum as possible in the SH while still doing the uair with A button so it comes out as early as possible (it's hard without accidently DJ'ing), so it worked

But if they don't DI the uthrow and then DI the uair down and away I can't regrab

Have you tried a fulljump n-air through them then fastfall to connect late on its 2nd hit -> (stuff) when they don't DI the throw at that percent?