Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

ArcNatural · Oct 13, 2008

His brother has two glaring mistakes that Teczero being his brother knows how to punish really well.

1. He doesn't pillar correctly. If you get the initial shine on the shield your supposed to dair after the peak of the next sh. His bro dairs the sh as it comes up which leads to about every grab Teczero gets that isn't a tech chase grab. Destroys him when he tries to pillar right at the edge and Teczero just throws him off.

2. Doesn't vary his approach. So what if Teczero is pretty good at powershielding lasers, it doesn't mean you have to approach. Just stay away and don't laser lol, or just full jump lasers/use platforms to change your laser approaches.

But again he probably doesn't care. His brother is probably the only one he plays who notices this, or at least abuses it that much.

I liked the bair to fair gimps.

Teczer0 · Oct 13, 2008

Well my brother does vary it a bit but yea he could do it more.

He likes to grab me cuz I run and shield thinking I'm going to PS a laser

.

I hate that the most.

His knowledge about the match up and certain frame data is probably why I get to do the stuff I really do to him.

If you watch my matches of me vs Eggm most of grabs are from tech chasing him from a f-air/b-air or I PS a laser into grab.

But, I occasionally get stuff like that on Eggm too

KirbyKaze · Oct 14, 2008

So... not really a discovery because I think this is old but I'd like to talk about it because I'd like to incorporate it more into my game.

SH rising Bair (Bair has to be pretty perfect vs some characters) FF

If you SH a rising Bair really really fast you can kick a standing Fox in the face. Her SH rising Bair comes out really freaking fast and hits surprisingly low with the sweetspot (standing Mario... haven't tested any lower but I think that's as far as it goes anyways; it always misses IC).

Is this any good for stuff? Lately I've been using it on Peach a lot and it seems really good when they're trying to get past you and away from the edge (so for pressuring her to the edge and keeping her there basically) and then other than that I haven't been using it LOL.

Do you guys do anything with it or is there just better stuff or...?

SPAWN · Oct 14, 2008

That sounds interesting. I'm going to start using it. By the way, spaced bairs is all you need to do vs Peach in order to beat her... and get in grabs. She can't do anything vs spaced bairs though.

Magus420 said:
The point where they can begin to do a different getup than stand is based entirely on the attack's launch power, which has been multiplied by their weight, so it follows the weight list in the same way.

Attacks like Peach's jab for example, which has a fixed knockback, will always allow Fox/Falco to Roll or Attack in addition to Stand on a forced getup with it, while it will always force CF to Stand regardless of what he holds/presses on forced getup. This is because the base knockback of her slap multiplied by Fox/Falco's weight puts the launching power beyond the needed amount to allow the additional options, whereas when multiplied by CF's weight the power is below the required amount.

Regardless of the options the attack's launch power allows, in order for them to get a forced getup in the first place they need to be on the ground following the attack after like 13 frames or something, which is a short animation where they lay back down following the ground hit. If they're still in the air when the animation completes they go into a neutral fall stance and simply land on their feet and can do whatever.

This is the damage they need to be at after the hit for Sheik's Needles and Jab to allow the extra Roll and Attack options on a forced getup. Below this they will always do the normal stand on forced getup.

They both seem to have the same damages so I suppose they have roughly the same power at that damage range. Non-fastfallers won't hit the ground again nearly as fast so they land on their feet instead easily when using a Jab. FFers do this too at higher damages or when they DI/SDI the Jab upwards at lower damage.

Bowser .... 45
DK ........ 44
Samus ..... 44
Ganon ..... 43
Yoshi ..... 43
CF ........ 42
Link ...... 42
Dr Mario .. 42
Luigi ..... 42
Mario ..... 42
Ness ...... 40
Peach ..... 39
Sheik ..... 39
Zelda ..... 39
ICs ....... 39
Marth ..... 39
Mewtwo .... 38
Roy ....... 38
Y Link .... 38
Falco ..... 37
Pikachu ... 37
Fox ....... 36
Kirby ..... 35
Jiggs ..... 33
G&W ....... 33
Pichu ..... 32

For the Jab, these are the faster falling and more relevant characters that don't get out of it easily. This is the percent after the hit that these characters will begin to land on their feet if they hold UP when jabbed off the floor.

Fox ....... 71
Falco ..... 43
CF ........ 33
Sheik ..... 25
Roy ....... 20
DK ........ 19

^^ If you're wondering why Fox's is so high there it's because of his fall acceleration being much higher than everyone else's.

I thought this was pretty important. Tec0, put this in the first post. I know a lot of people have trouble techchasing when people don't tech. Me being one of them. I always dsmashed them /followed Drephen. But seriously, you can just charge an upsmash if they're at X percent and you jab them after they didn't get a tech. I find that so useful. Magus is the ****ing ****. His knowledge is incredible.

Tero. · Oct 14, 2008

wow there are some pretty interesting discussions here, i wonder why the **** i didnt subscribe this topic earlier ...

*thinks of some sheik questions*

SPAWN · Oct 14, 2008

Yeah, seriously, this thread is incredible.

Tero. · Oct 14, 2008

About onstage edgeguard:

When (against which characters) is fair the better option than dsmash ?
(Or is fair in general better ?)

elvenarrow3000 · Oct 14, 2008

I would say the fair is better 'cause it hits lower. If you look at the hitbox for the dsmash, it really isn't a very good edgeguard. You could dtilt, I guess, to pop them up and then fair them.

Teczer0 · Oct 14, 2008

SPAWN said:
That sounds interesting. I'm going to start using it. By the way, spaced bairs is all you need to do vs Peach in order to beat her... and get in grabs. She can't do anything vs spaced bairs though.

I thought this was pretty important. Tec0, put this in the first post. I know a lot of people have trouble techchasing when people don't tech. Me being one of them. I always dsmashed them /followed Drephen. But seriously, you can just charge an upsmash if they're at X percent and you jab them after they didn't get a tech. I find that so useful. Magus is the ****ing ****. His knowledge is incredible.

Good find

I put it on the first page

also I've actually been using this for quite sometime.

Its really effective vs Captain Falcon because he is so easy to tech chase, so CF players sometimes purposely miss techs to throw people off guard.

But then you can jab -> upsmash **** combo them

Also Magus is TOO amazing. He ***** me all the time for spacing right and when me and him played team for doubles friendlies he hit like 80 million d-air falcon punch combos too good =D

soap · Oct 14, 2008

.Tero said:
About onstage edgeguard:

When (against which characters) is fair the better option than dsmash ?
(Or is fair in general better ?)

fair is better cuz if they sweetspot and u miss with dsmash u get ***** in lag, but u dont always have time to shffl against something like an illusion so dsmash, although i saw tec just ftilting illusion then going down there and following it up, i just dsmash cuz its easier to time

the sh rising bair i only use on tall characters like peach, samus, marth, u can hit them with a full jump bair also and i think that leaves u less vulnerable actually cuz u can do a second move on the way down or dj platform dash away instead of just hanging there doing nothing till u land and u have to land.

Teczer0 · Oct 14, 2008

F-tilt hits surprisingly low and leaves few options for the spacie.

However it won't hit them if they sweetspot the illusion

.

I do it if I think people are trying to rush back to the stage.

soap · Oct 14, 2008

but it has little lag so u are safe from a ledgehop retaliation if u do miss, i need to try it out next time i play, god i have no time to play

Teczer0 · Oct 14, 2008

Then if you miss vs a falco you can full hop n-air over the ledgehop double laser and then **** them

FYI f-tilt ***** fires

soap · Oct 14, 2008

that is too perfect, thank you

Teczer0 · Oct 14, 2008

soap said:
that is too perfect, thank you

<3333333

Also more spacie tech/gimps is to use Shffl b-airs on spacies you think try to immediately try to double jump onto the stage instead of using firefox/illusion after you b-throw them off the stage at relatively low percents.

If they double jump too fast they get hit by the b-air and you can go down there and gimp them.

If they double jump air dodge you can re-grab/d-smash them and do whatever.

If they try to fall low enough to sweetspot you can just fast fall and grab the ledge.

This is a bit harder to do on falco because his jump is ******** and when I did it vs Reik he would hit me with dair a few times.

But I started to just turn and re-grab after a while

It takes a little practice but its pretty funny :laugh:

AND it hits illusions that aren't sweetspotted =D

soap · Oct 14, 2008

im a fan of the bthrow jump off needle>fair finisher, it works for me like everytime if they jump. apparently its called the robmoney according to drew, i thought that was backthrow to fsmash with falco, but drew says he was the first to that cheap stuff with sheik too.

if they try to sweetspot, u just double jump needle turnaround and edgehog

Teczer0 · Oct 14, 2008

Needle is pretty good it covers a lot of things they can do to come back.

I try to mix up my gimps so I can stay unpredictable.

I thought SH needle would solve everything until Eggm got around it all the time T_T.

They can double jump air dodge really fast and they can illusion high

.

Unless you can FF needle? *shrugs*

soap · Oct 15, 2008

no no u catch them as they jump with the needle, u bacthrow wait till u hear the 'huh' from the jump then instantly jump off reverse needle, u cant illusion over it cuz it catches them on the way up and u pretty much steal their jump. sometimes they can airdodge it, but i think if u time it well u can get them before the airdodge too cuz my friend always swears he airdodged but he gets tagged

sometimes u have to full jump the needle too it depends on percent and distance and stuff

Teczer0 · Oct 15, 2008

Hmm well that does sound pretty solid

But thats some serious timing to get down. You have to stay grounded till you hear them double jump?

Are spacies able to double jump before the throw animation finishes?

soap · Oct 15, 2008

i prolly more anticipate it than anything, cuz the dj is technically one frame. but i get it really consistently and its really easy. also make sure u jump off the stage with the needle then u fall with them to finish, otherwise it takes too long to run off sometimes

and remember that u can always dj needle turnaround to grab the ledge and edgehog

u can dj waveland back onto the stage and ftilt if they are at a middle distance and u cant reach them down there in time (applies to just fox really)

or something sweet is needle, then needle turn around on the way down, then dj bair them at the bottom of the level

Teczer0 · Oct 15, 2008

Well I can understand the fall off part but then can't they just hug the stage and come back?

I always thought of edgeguarding as a predicting game really.

Although if they try to run away that would be some **** **** ROFL.

KirbyKaze · Oct 15, 2008

Teczero said:
I always thought of edgeguarding as a predicting game really.

I thought you said you played with M2K :laugh:

But wow. I had no idea Sheik had such layers to gimping. I'd always just needled or sh bair or wafted out with bair or grabbed the edge but she can do so much it's ridiculous :laugh:

Americans have such gay gimps ^___^

Teczer0 · Oct 15, 2008

KirbyKaze said:
I thought you said you played with M2K

But wow. I had no idea Sheik had such layers to gimping. I'd always just needled or sh bair or wafted out with bair or grabbed the edge but she can do so much it's ridiculous Americans have such gay gimps ^___^

I beat M2K's sheik with fox once

.

He is ungodly gay in sheik dittos though

I love gimping I try to think up of them cuz it helps my spacie game. :lick:

And its A LOT of fun :laugh:

soap · Oct 15, 2008

hmm...if i backthrow and they hug the stage and firefox at mid to low range and i jumped off with a needle and missed... i would prolly try to just intercept on the way up with a bair which they could tech, or i could dj waveland back on to the stage and try to ftilt. i dunno there are alot of variations u are right its not the same thing over and over.

Teczer0 · Oct 15, 2008

The only thing I'm scared of with that tactic is getting shinespiked.

If fox waits hugs the stage double jumps and grabs the ledge he could potentially shinespike/edgerape me.

I usually try to find some pattern tbh.

And then use the gimp I think is best

. Super technical spacies need to get needles though T_T there is usually no way around it

.

EDIT: This is an amazing discussion :laugh:

gimping is too amazing. Btw you should tell me more of your gimp strats soap

.

soap · Oct 15, 2008

Teczero said:
I beat M2K's sheik with fox once .

He is ungodly gay in sheik dittos though

in pittsburgh i beat his falcon in a friendly cuz he was sandbagging

then he sheik dittoed me on FD and 4stocked me

whatever drephen will avenge me

edit- o ya if they hug the stage off the bthrow i usually try to wavedash fastfall edgehog right before they grab it, then they are all fronzled that they missed the ledge and u go down and finish them, this takes tight timing too though, ive been too late and gotten shinespiked, once u have a feel for when u can get beat them to it, its easy

Teczer0 · Oct 15, 2008

I almost beat his marth a couple times with sheik =D

Never got close in fox dittos, sheik dittos, marth dittos, or fox vs marth though

.

I usually get 3-4 stocked T___________T

EDIT: Yea I was thinking about just grabbing the ledge too. I just think its too hard to get the timing down. Maybe I just don't have the reaction speed

.

Oh well I'll look into it sounds pretty gay

Also I'm pretty sure if you can get the WD in time they can't punish you cuz of invo frames

KirbyKaze · Oct 15, 2008

i sometimes b-throw and then sh back and at the peak of my double jump do the bair (and then ff) and edgecancel it to grab the edge but it's mostly a trick i wouldn't recommend using it it's kind of slow LOL

but sometimes if they try to use mindgames or stall with the shine before going for stuff it can eliminate a lot of their options which is pretty cool

i still wouldn't recommend it

Teczer0 · Oct 15, 2008

Sounds like soap can do it LOL.

That actually sounds pretty solid >_> but why do you need to double jump?

Stalling with shine is kinda annoying tactic to get around

.

Falling with b-air might work... hmmm

soap · Oct 15, 2008

^sounds cool, with edgecancel u can do a ton of stuff after, my friends falcon edgecancels bair into reverse uair spike

Teczer0 · Oct 15, 2008

Yea I can only really edgecancel with jiggs cuz jiggs is easy.

My brother used to do really cool stuff with edgecancels too.

He would edgecancel d-air with marth and fall off with f-air.

KDJ used edgecanceled d-airs and spiked m2k ledgestalling with marth :laugh:

soap · Oct 15, 2008

fun convo, i should start on this online physics that is due at 8 am

ill have videos up next week hopefully from a tourney this weekend (not the big darkrain one), forward is coming so there should be some cool stuff

Teczer0 · Oct 15, 2008

Pfffttt

Physics is easy

I'm switching my major so I can take another semester of physics :laugh:

.

Yay @ easy B+ or As :psycho:

Cia · Oct 15, 2008

I want to sheik ditto him now..

only I'm gonna camp him a fox on luigi's mansion

KirbyKaze · Oct 15, 2008

Teczero said:
Sounds like soap can do it LOL.

That actually sounds pretty solid >_> but why do you need to double jump?

Stalling with shine is kinda annoying tactic to get around .

Falling with b-air might work... hmmm

i didn't mean to say double jump LOL it's just a sh at peak of sh bair then ff edgecancel and either grab the edge or scream "RAMBO" and bair again but usually just grab the edge LOL

but yeah epic fail by me my typing tech skill died LOL

i blame this box of oreos ^____^

Smooth Criminal · Oct 15, 2008

>___>

/subscribed

Smooth Criminal

KirbyKaze · Oct 15, 2008

smooth come to canada and we'll share this box of oreos =D

Smooth Criminal · Oct 15, 2008

Fuggin'-a. OREOS.

I'm packin' my **** and moving to Canada. Commodity like that don't exist down here.

Smooth Criminal

RaynEX · Oct 15, 2008

I'm still mad you made us wait at 5am in the middle of nowhere in georgia.

SPAWN · Oct 15, 2008

I beat M2K's Marth on DL ONCE. I wish I could do that again.

I think I've forgotten that matchup a bit due to some certain stupid game.

Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

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