Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

so yeah; 'ask hax melee falcon questions' thread coming soon - stay tuned people

Hax said:

so yeah; 'ask hax melee falcon questions' thread coming soon - stay tuned people

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I will beat you to it and unlike your thread, nothing will get done (that is productive) and not nearly as much people will ask questions.

its cause all us mw falcons have ****ty tech skill except for darkrain

its all about the EC

lol Yeah and Darkrain's techskill is through the friggin' roof.

Scar and others, critique me plz. Just recently switched from maining ganon to maining falcon..

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5766904#post5766904

Pretty good Falcon sir. One thing I noticed was an excess of double jumping to knee's. Of course,that might just be some lingering Ganon main in you though. Your tech chasing is pretty good, but you mostly stomped while doing it, try raptor boosting and re-grabbing more.

p.s. Im doing a recording session tomorrow with my buddy who plays marth/peach, so I'll be posting some more new video's to my youtube account finally haha.

Iceman12 said:

Pretty good Falcon sir. One thing I noticed was an excess of double jumping to knee's. Of course,that might just be some lingering Ganon main in you though. Your tech chasing is pretty good, but you mostly stomped while doing it, try raptor boosting and re-grabbing more.

p.s. Im doing a recording session tomorrow with my buddy who plays marth/peach, so I'll be posting some more new video's to my youtube account finally haha.

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thanks i watched your falcon as well and I think yours is ok. You just need to get your technical down better and improve your overall speed. Also, practice platform cancelling, it's rly useful in ssbm =)

I need advice for comboing spacies. What else works on them that is not tech-chasing, stomp and raptor?

good luck with that

i like dtilt in like mid percentage range to pop them up. uthrow is kinda cool, dthrow...i dunno...

Oskurito said:

I need advice for comboing spacies. What else works on them that is not tech-chasing, stomp and raptor?

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if they are stupid with DI, you can upair a couple times if they were originally on a platform and DIing up around 70%-80%. Upthrow to downtilt around 60%. If you can get an upsmash from platform tech chase or if you know they will not tech or tech at the same place or you know they won't DI it right from a boost or stomp at around 50. Uhh...you can get an upair before knee from stomp at like 90 if they DI up? lawl

Yeah comboing spacies is alot of them DIing up.......

You can't play a good Falcon and not tech-chase. His combos don't come easy unfortunately.

just knee spacies if you have the opportunity for a free hit, aka after a stomp or forward b

i only do other aerials if i know im not gonna get there in time with a knee, but if your tech skill is good enough you can usually knee and its almost always a better idea. good spacies wont give you tons of opportunities, and youll feel like an idiot if you land a stomp and you waste it on a weak move. knee them off the level then do work edgeguarding.

xXx-NoobKing-xXx said:

thanks i watched your falcon as well and I think yours is ok. You just need to get your technical down better and improve your overall speed. Also, practice platform cancelling, it's rly useful in ssbm =)

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Those video's are like 4-5 months old lol, I pretty much sucked back when I uploaded those. I'm exponentially better now. I really need to upload some new video's; good thing Im going to be doing a recording session this Saturday though ;p.

DrewB008 said:

just knee spacies if you have the opportunity for a free hit, aka after a stomp or forward b

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This is the best advice that can be given vs spacies, and it will force you to learn how to edgeguard them well. Weak knee > uair offstage is amazing, I haven't been using it as much anymore because it honestly doesn't work vs really good people, and I may have even forgotten how to do it vs low level players. Sigh.

You lose a lot of the cool **** you used to do once you realize it only works every once in a while.

Anyways yeah knee, or if you really don't have the perfect setup for a knee but it can be done, most people DI whatever move you do up and in, even/especially good players. You can usually connect anything into knee at that point, i.e. missed l-cancel on dair>uair>knee.

If one of those silly Brawlers decided they wanted to Main Falcon in Melee, or where just trying to learn him. Where would you tell them to start? What adivice would you give them over the long run?

Practice your shffling and l-canceling, both of which are very important to Falcon play. Practice is your best bet to anything in smash.

I have a few questions regarding Falcon's ground game, mainly, how useful is it? I generally try to avoid it (except for grabs and sometimes specials of course). So far uses I've discovered have been:

Jabs: Jab - grab and gentleman are too good in general. I find myself using these two a lot when the fighting gets really close range. Is there anything special about the gentleman besides it canceling the rapid punch (ie. combos or really good situations to use it)?

F-tilt: I honestly haven't found many uses for this. Does it hit sweetspotters? Is there anything special about this at all? I suppose it could make a decent anti-air poke but I think Falcon has better options.

D-tilt: Up-throw to d-tilt around 60% works on spacies I've heard. Anything else I should know? Can it hit sweespotters?

U-tilt: Edge-guarding. Seems too slow for anything else.

F-smash: Up-throw to f-smash is nice. I also like using this as a tech-chase (if they roll towards me, wavedash --> f-smash to account for their roll). Cross-up f-smash is nice too, especially if they expect an aerial. Essentially this is the KO move I keep in mind if I have trouble landing knees.

D-smash: Use as a tech-chase if they roll towards me. I haven't found much else for it.

U-smash: Leads to knees. Anything else? How good is it's hitbox?

Did I miss any major uses or are any of these options not terribly useful?

Also, Scar, I was just wondering if you were going to upload your E52 mms on Youtube. Those matches we're too fun even if I got wrecked.

jabs: any action after you push 3 times will cancel the rapid punch so, after you do it you can roll, run, shield...

d tilt: i think it can hit the spacies if the try to phantasm sweet spot and there a little too high.

fsmash: dair at like 65ish charge that mofo if they pop straight up. darkrain baby.

um thats about all i know

Ulti said:

D-tilt: Up-throw to d-tilt around 60% works on spacies I've heard. Anything else I should know? Can it hit sweespotters?

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Yes: It won't combo into anything until fairly high %. I used to try to use at to low percentages and get punished for it (they will actually retaliate before you do at low percent)
They fall over from it at about 50-60% %, and it will start comboing into uairs around then to (it can work at lower%, but i wouldn't recommend using it). Won't combo into knees until about 80-90% i think

Scar: Thanks for answering my questions
As for edgeguarding chars: Spacies, mostly. I just don't know any good set-ups that cover many options and such. I often just guess what they're gonna do/where they're gonna go and try to go for an offstage knee, but if I guess wrong I could get dair'd/shinespiked. What are the more safe/gay options?
Also, Marth. All I do now is edgehog and ledgehop dair or knee. Are there more effective methods or should I stick to that?

Another question: What do you usually do out of a CC? Falcons grab doesnt have enough range for the most part and dtilt is bad at lower%. Should I just avoid CCing altogether (with falcon)?

Someone asked a question about CF's ground options, Ulti I think. Anyways as you've correctly pointed out, he has few useful ones.

Darkrain uses jab to pressure and throw off his opponents, not necessarily for it to connect, but always (read: often) immediately after a missed aerial, just in case someone tries to run up and grab. Otherwise you know jab's uses, they are good and useful but high-level players will very frequently grab your jab>grab.. in other words it gets less useful.

Otherwise you're pretty much limited to dtilt extremely situationally and after uthrow vs spacies, utilt as an edgeguard, ftilt... as an edgeguard, dash attack which perhaps we should all use more...

So that leaves you with JC grab which is what you're primarily going to use, fB, Falcon Kick, and smash attacks. They all have their uses and putting them together is how you make your very own Captain Falcon.

Remember that Falcon Kick and FSmash are relatively safe options if you need CF to pull back for a frame or two.

MikeHaggarTHAKJB said:

As for edgeguarding chars: Spacies, mostly. I just don't know any good set-ups that cover many options and such. I often just guess what they're gonna do/where they're gonna go and try to go for an offstage knee, but if I guess wrong I could get dair'd/shinespiked. What are the more safe/gay options?

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uTilt is apparently amazing but I still to this day cannot time it. DashA will work against fB sometimes... I mostly just grab the ledge and throw out an aerial. If they're still charging the upB and are below you often times dropping down and bairing works. It has surprising range.

Also, Marth. All I do now is edgehog and ledgehop dair or knee. Are there more effective methods or should I stick to that?

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haha If it's working then keep it up. If you don't get hit by his upB then you're doing great, but remember Falcon's ledgestall doesn't give you permanent invincibility so watch out, Marth will abuse that.

Another question: What do you usually do out of a CC? Falcons grab doesnt have enough range for the most part and dtilt is bad at lower%. Should I just avoid CCing altogether (with falcon)?

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Just don't do it against any moves with too much knockback or at higher %s.

I don't CC much because when I get hit offstage I want to be as high as possible, and I'm not good at judging when is an appropriate time vs when is not.

Really I have a hard time against Marths.

scar dont be like shiz and abandon the thread

MATCHUP BREAKDOWN
Marth can be really gay, but it is a winning matchup at the highest levels of play. Let's look at a table that I'm going to make right now.

MARTH...mid----good----solid----high
CF.............................................................
mid.........50/50--45/55-----30/70---*****
good.......60/40--60/40----35/65--*****
solid.......70/30--60/40----40/60----30/70
high........****---****----65/35----60/40

The interesting point I wanted to make with this little chart is that the matchup is HIGHLY HIGHLY dependent on the skill levels of both players.

Notice the drastic difference between "good" and "solid" Marth players. Be afraid of Marths that have just hit the next level of play, they really do transform into something scary. Note also the big change between "solid" and "high" level CF players.

In both of these cases, losing matchups turn into winning matchups. Just be happy as CF players that at the end of this progression you end up with the upper hand, though not by a huge margin.

For competitive Melee players, Marth players seem to have more trouble with Captain Falcon than vice-versa before becoming very solid players.

Once they hit that point, however, Marth seems to beat all but the best Captain Falcon players.

So yeah in your progression as a Falcon player it is my opinion that Marth is an easy matchup, then once you get better, equal level Marths give you A LOT more problems, until finally you reach the next level and it's match that you expect to win 60% of the time vs an equally skilled competitor.

ACTIONABLE ADVICE
vs Marth you really want to keep moving, dashdance a lot and be wary of his incredible fsmash range, jumping in and nairing is your usual approach but Marth beats this with:
fsmash
his incredibly fast sh>fair
and worst of all, dd>grab.

To counter this you need to be unpredictable. Be very wary of what Marth is up to, if he is ever vulnerable you really need to jump on him and catch him with a nair or a grab, and if you can't combo him to death from a nice combo starter (any clean hit with nair, dair, fB, or grab) that should be the first thing you work on.

Marth has a fairly easy time killing Captain Falcon from a grab, and is more than capable of keeping you on the defensive for a very long time after every hit. Again, make sure you are capable of returning the favor.

If you just jump in a lot, you're probably off to a bad start because that's probably what he expects, instead work on mixing that up with grabs or running in and shielding if he likes to fsmash a lot. Shielded fsmash when Marth is at low % can be countered by knee out of shield>grab, I use it and love it.

Try not to get grabbed, but if/when you do, don't get mad. Mix up teching and missing techs intentionally, be wary of Marth's options and just try to get out of it alive. His edgeguarding is amazing so you really need to realize that you have to beat him on the stage, every time you are offstage expect to lose the stock, and if you don't, kudos to you. Just realize that the ledge is that dangerous.

Other than that, be mindful of Marth's advantages when below you, stay away from platforms unless it's DL64, and work on your combos.

This match boils down to who can get the first hit, so learn how to mix up your approaches, learn how to bait Marth into doing what you want him to, and try to hit him first and then take the stock from him.

good lord scar. thats an awesome post

lol Marth players deserve to lose to CF.

Some of the Marth's I've met and played also use the first hit of their fB to shutdown approaches, which is annoying because it has such high priority, is very quick to come out, and has much less lag than an fsmash. As far as I can tell, you pretty much have to be all the more faster and more impeccable with your spacing to punish Marth's for using it. But I still find it bothersome from just how quickly it can come out sometimes. Do you have any better advice/knowledge with handling Marth's that use their fB, Scar?

well scar i got some problems with falcos approaching with lasers and whatnot
once i get a good hit in, or start a descent combo i am ok, but getting that initial hit/grab is the hard part
i can get SOME shield grabs, but i know it is not very reliable
rolling around to avoid the lazers kinda works, at least better than just shielding them
and lazers on my shield pretty much **** me cause i can't attack out of shield or flee due to shield stun
if u got some vids of u vs a falco, that u think would benefit me, i would appreciate it, along with help u can post

Thanks for the advice on Falcon's ground moves. Speaking of Marth, what do I do when he starts up-tilting (as in, how should I DI so I don't get hit by a bunch of them and then die)? If my only viable option is "avoid getting hit by it in the first place," what are some approach options against it?

Scar: Dunno if i'd break it down THAT much but definetly Marth is so much easier for Falcon than people say he is. You have to be at a high level enough to know i.e. me vs DJ combo last weekend nukkuh. no vids tho T__T

Scar: How to go to CAST4?

Alright thank you for the good insight.

My tech skill is almost perfect.

Im pretty random due to my friend who was really good with Marth and Samus. I try to mix it up.

I got to practice the 0 to death combos, im not very consistent right now.

Scaar. I tried to put up the our matches from e52, and there was this huge black bar on the bottom of the screen. It had something to do with the tv we were playing on because it wasn't like that for any of the other matches I recorded. T_T

I'm trying to fix it though.

sadly raynex you cant fix that, it sthere to stay

Sad T_T

good thread btw I find it educational for a smasher that's tetering on the edge of wanting to play C-Falcon.

junglefever6478 said:

sadly raynex you cant fix that, it sthere to stay

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You're right. I can't get rid of the black bar. But my friend made custom percentage icons and stuff using some program so all the things you can't see are sexy now.

I've found Falcon's dash attack to easily outprioritize Fox and Falco's upBs. How effective is this attack for edgeguarding?

nvm

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RaynEX said:

You're right. I can't get rid of the black bar. But my friend made custom percentage icons and stuff using some program so all the things you can't see are sexy now.

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how does he know what percents and stuff?

thats awesome but kinda weird

I don't know how he does it either. But picture the icons for percents, but different colours and with different pictures for the stock faces. Its way too silly.