Banning Dedede's infinite? FIRST POST UPDATED WITH VIDEO.

First off, I'm a Dedede main (When I decide I hate myself enough to play Brawl), so this isn't a complaint post.

Click here to see the infinite / how to do it.

Why is the standing infinite still allowed (I'm not talking infiniting someone against a wall, that's all on stage choices)?

It's stupidly broken, think about it. Out of 35 playable characters (Not counting Pokémon Trainer as 3), five of them are infinitable. That's 1/7th of the cast. One grab and 1/7th of the cast is repeat Dthrown to upwards of 300%, and instagibbed. If the Dedede player has a basic understanding of timing (All you really need for Brawl), 1/7th of Brawl characters are useless in this matchup. Also, as far as I know, Dedede can partially infinite other Dedede's, but I could be wrong.

"lol they shuld learn a new character". I know I'm going to hear this, and it's ********. I'll use a personal example. I don't play Brawl much, but a good friend of mine has an insane DK, he beasts. When we play, our games are usually very close, going ~60/40 my favor when I don't infinite. If I decide I want to be a massive tool and infinite him, I can usually win with < 30%. Someone with five times less experience than someone else beating the better player on their main because of an easily exploitable game mechanic. That's ****ing stupid. Why should they have to learn a new character because my character has something that completely ruins the matchup?

Wobbling is banned at most Melee tournaments because it ruined gameplay; one grab and IC's get a kill. Why should this be any different? Granted, the Wobbl worked on the entire cast, but most people pick a main and stick with them. Wouldn't you DK, Luigi, Samus, Mario and Bowser players like to have a real match against a Dedede player, instead of having to switch to some ******** counterpick?

Your thoughts.

+1 to BAN THE INFINITE.

DeDeDe's infinites only limit metagame, just like the infinite cape.

Good argument.

Except the part where Infinite Cape Glitch is banned at any respectable tournament.

And the part where Infinite Cape Glitch is a guaranteed kill on five characters.

Oh well : /.

Wobbling was NOT banned in the majority of big tournaments, rather a minority of them.

Three valid things to not get stuck in the infinite:
1. Don´t get grabbed (works perfect against IC's so no reason it wont work against Dedede)
2. Get a good counterpick stage (for example Rainbow ride/Frigate
3. Use another character
(4th.? Learn to ISJR and you wont get grabbed as "easily"?)

Simply as that 3 ways of not, there´s no reason to not play with a characters potencial most effective way with building up mental barriers just becase some people call the strat "lame".
I often see people complain about Snakes grenades why not ban them? They are his most efficient tool against Metaknight and since it´s against Meta who is obviously the best char in the game it should be banned even if it takes skill to hit with the projectiles...

I have yet to attend a large US event where Wobbling is allowed, Ken even banned it at his house : /.

1. At one point in the match, you are going to get grabbed. Don't say it's 100% avoidable, because it's not if the person you're playing doesn't have MS.

2. Dedede can infinite regardless of stage. Rainbow Cruise? Infinite until the level moves enough and
Bthrow them. Frigate? Infinite until a flip is coming and Fthrow them.

3. Again, why should you have to learn another character for a single matchup because one thing they have is stupidly broken?

I also missed the part about where Snake's grenades guarantee a kill no matter what against 1/7th of the cast. If you're going to bring something up, at least bring up a valid point.

Mario, Luigi, and Samus can get out by mashing really quickly except at higher percentages. King Dedede inches forward against Bowser so he can run out of stage. It only works "perfectly" against Donkey Kong really.

I also don't think any reasonable person would count Samus and Zero Suit Samus as the same character so 1/7 is an exaggeration even if you ignore the problems the infinite has against 4/5 of the characters it works on.

I'm actually completely in agreement with Voodoo here. If you think about it, it's pretty idiotic. Also, for those of you that complain about banning potential options in the game, I point out to you that Bomb-ombs, as well every other item is banned. Furthermore, D3's infinite is WORSE than Ice-Climbers, because while it was easier for Ice-Climbers to get a grab in Melee than in Brawl due to Wavedash, it at least gave the Melee players a CHANCE to not get grabbed, and they had combo options in that game to erase a stock from their opponent, or at least Nana, very quickly. In this game, THERE IS NO WAY TO RELIABLY ERASE D3's stock before he grabs you, even in near perfect play, with any of the characters that can be infinited. I mean, seriously, lol @ the Ice Climber's main, who has a good match-up vs. D3 due to natural grab resistance, and probably knows an infinite of their own trying to back up D3's infinite.

Point is, it's stupid, it takes no skill, it harms the metagame by locking off character options. D3's grab is his most broken feature in the first place. Have you SEEN his stupid grab range? Like seriously, do you play the game? He can toss out Waddles, so it's not like he can't camp either. All he has to do is put up the shield when you hit him with almost anything and Woops! There goes a stock. Basically he says, "This is a tourney *****. GTFO your main, because it's worthless in this game." Then he does that stupid Penguin Laugh while spinning in circles and pounding his belly, as if to MOCK the legendary DK!

Yeah, that infinite is stupid. I wish it worked on popular high and top tiers. It would OBVIOUSLY get banned in a second if it erased other viable characters. It's just getting ignored because people don't care since it doesn't effect them, which is completely unfair. I know I'd be *****ing up a storm if Marth got infinited by D3, as would you if your main did. If it worked on the whole cast, it would be banned. Why different for the 5?

another one of these ban infinite throws topics? lol

"don't get grabbed"

and those 5 can still lose to DDD even if he doesn't grab them, like Bowser, but they can also still win it by avoiding the grab.

Smasher89 said:

Wobbling was NOT banned in the majority of big tournaments, rather a minority of them.

Three valid things to not get stuck in the infinite:
1. Don´t get grabbed (works perfect against IC's so no reason it wont work against Dedede)
2. Get a good counterpick stage (for example Rainbow ride/Frigate
3. Use another character
(4th.? Learn to ISJR and you wont get grabbed as "easily"?)

Simply as that 3 ways of not, there´s no reason to not play with a characters potencial most effective way with building up mental barriers just becase some people call the strat "lame".
I often see people complain about Snakes grenades why not ban them? They are his most efficient tool against Metaknight and since it´s against Meta who is obviously the best char in the game it should be banned even if it takes skill to hit with the projectiles...

Click to expand...

This post isnt exactly fair in its points as the infinite from D3 will be enough to kill someone before a stage change on Frigate or Rainbow even forces him to. (in fact on Rainbow, he can use a wall to do it to -everyone- for the beginning portions, another wall during the top portion, and chain grab to fthrow/bthrow off the scrolling sides, there's also a psuedo-wall on Frigate) Not to mention D3 has a Chaingrab trick on the moving platform of smashville. Also it's worth noting that Mario, Luigi and Samus are easily grabbed out of their arials by DDD so the ISJR doesn't really give them any help here. Mario and Luigi in particular have trouble doing much at all without being in grab range.

The simple fact of the matter is Dedede's "don't get grabbed" is extremely different from an IC "don't get grabbed". The IC's have weaknesses that make it inherently harder for them to land a grab. They have a small grab range, Nana is an idiot who gets seperated and shields badly, and if Nana dies, their infinite cannot be performed at all. On the other hand. DDD does not have these limitations to his grab. A "gay" enough Dedede will be content to wait patiently, powershielding projectiles and waiting for his opportunity.

I believe Unbreon has some views on this subject as well. Usually in fighting games, infinites are not incredibly easy to perform and require skill beyond things like "Just press one button at the same time over and over". Personally I don't ban the infinites in my tournament, and nobody has complained so far, though I do believe a player who has been infinited reserves the right to call the other player graphic names after their match.

I'm glad someone here other than the "victims" see how stupid DDD's infinite is.

We had this exact same discussion in the 'Is chaingrabbing cheap?' thread, where Matador and I actually defended DeDeDe's infinite because we knew it wasn't an auto lost. Even Bum proved it with his DK when he fought a DDD. We can "not get grabbed" for a match. Boss' Mario did it as well (but he was killed by a gordo x.x). However, it's not a reliable method to do avoid the grab. There is no reliable method to avoid DDD's grab whatsoever. Especially against a good player who knows the match-up well besides 'lolinfinite!' like how the majority of scrubby D3 mains talk about.

Personally, I get sick of talking of D3's infinite. There were about five pages dedicated to D3 on the Mario boards just because of the infinite while the majority barely has two. Luigi boards I believe have around the same. We both come to the same conclusion that the best way to beat DDD is to "don't get grabbed", which we all find is BS. A character should not have an extreme advantage over characters just because their grab range is so ridiculously huge that even Ike's F-air, even if perfectly spaced, still gets grabbed... meaning for all intents and purposes, attacking a grounded D3 anytime during your fights is pure idiocy. There's no way to not get shieldgrabbbed.

"Don't get grabbed" has to be the most overrated piece of bull**** phrase I've ever had to take to heart. Look at D3, then look at the rest of the characters. It should be simply rephrased to "Don't ever attack D3 at all. In fact, just jump off the stage three times because you're gonna fail and you're gonna fail hard." The people who say this must feel like robots that have not analyzed these match-ups from both ends of the spectrum. Like what Pierce said, if your character was able to be infinited, you'd be crying the banhammer too.

And this is only proven further by a few posts above me. Seriously, Rainbow Cruise and Frigate for counterpicks? Rainbow Cruise has THREE wall infinites and you STILL have to worry about not getting grabbed due to walk-offs and scrolling. Frigate makes no lick of difference whatsoever. The stage flipping gives no incentive. The best counterpick stages against DDD is Norfair and Brinstar simply because it's impossible for them to keep up the infinite unless they're at the very top platform.

I better stop here because I feel as if I write any further I'd be stepping on toes.

Do I want to see it banned? Hell yes, as would any other person who mains the 4/5 who gets it. I'm glad some DDD mains are starting to feel this way as well.

If this gets banned, there will be cake, made by the Peach mains, given to the Mario and Luigi mains , and the Samus mains would be invited. Then we'd make an giant banana cake for the DK mains who has it worse than any of us combined.

Sadly the Bowser mains can't join in because it technically isn't an infinite for their case.

SBR needs to take a real big thought about this, because DDD is not the same as Ice Climbers.

Dededes infinite is banned at certain tourneys but it is pretty unfair. It should be banned in all tournament. Enough said. The only counter arguments I've heard are "don't get grabbed or "pick a different character"

Completely irrelevant and unfair to DK,bowser,samus, luigi, and mario mains.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175364

Search bro. ^_^

Completely irrelevant and unfair to DK,bowser,samus, luigi, and mario mains.

Click to expand...

Ban everyone who beats Sonic for me too will ya? ^_^

I vote to ban Ken.

It's a pretty broken match-up.

ICs infinite > DDD infinite, ESPECIALLY since they can do it to to... 34/35 characters. <_____________<
So, really, DDDs shouldnt be banned, its only 5 charactes.

B0mbe1c said:

ICs infinite > DDD infinite, ESPECIALLY since they can do it to to... 34/35 characters. <_____________<
So, really, DDDs shouldnt be banned, its only 5 charactes.

Click to expand...

Really. 1 grab from IC means death. Let DDD have his infinite.

Has anyone tested DDD's infinites with...... that thing that lets Ness escape Marth's infinite?

Buuman said:

Dededes infinite is banned at certain tourneys but it is pretty unfair. It should be banned in all tournament. Enough said. The only counter arguments I've heard are "don't get grabbed or "pick a different character"

Completely irrelevant and unfair to DK,bowser,samus, luigi, and mario mains.

Click to expand...

thats cause its all you can be told really. what do Ness/Lucas players do when they face Marth? what does Fox/Wolf do when they face the likes of Pika, Zamus, and Shiek? you either deal with it or do one of the 2 things people always say.

Terios the Hedgehog said:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175364

Search bro. ^_^

Click to expand...

you actually searched up that old, dired up big banning thread? lol
*hands out cookie for taking the time to look for something so ancient*

Nah. I just remembered it. Topics like this come up often. Not hard to remember when rehashed topics are made every few weeks. ^_^

JigglyZelda003 said:

thats cause its all you can be told really. what do Ness/Lucas players do when they face Marth?

Click to expand...

They hold up diagonally away on the control stick and Smash C away. Then they bat Marth in the face. ^_^

Terios the Hedgehog said:

Really. 1 grab from IC means death. Let DDD have his infinite.

Has anyone tested DDD's infinites with...... that thing that lets Ness escape Marth's infinite?

Click to expand...

Im no expert, but afaik the IC infinite is much harder and they got a worse grab range by far..

I would understand a ban of Alternating Throws, but the DDD infinite seems much more evil to me.

Whether it's hard or not has nothing to do with it. Read the thread I linked.

Terios the Hedgehog said:

Whether it's hard or not has nothing to do with it. Read the thread I linked.

Click to expand...

Maybe not, if the doing of the grab is hard.

But the grab range is indeed an argument - its much easier not to get grabbed by the ICs.

And remember that you cannot split DDD in two parts (although he would be fat enough to do it).

Terios the Hedgehog said:

Whether it's hard or not has nothing to do with it.

Click to expand...

I think it does.

Any scrub can just pick up Dedede as a CP for one of these characters and just stand in place pressing z and then down.

At least with IC you have to have some technical skill, you have to get the grab (their grab range is a lot smaller), and you can't be separated.

Oh, they also don't outcamp the characters they infinite. Dedede can pretty much just throw waddles at DK. They block Luigi's fireballs pretty well. Mario has his own fireballs but really a PS does the trick, and Dedede can just move kinda close into ftilt range and spam that. I'm not sure who else he has the infinite on, but his is definitely a lot more unfair.

B0mbe1c said:

ICs infinite > DDD infinite, ESPECIALLY since they can do it to to... 34/35 characters. <_____________<
So, really, DDDs shouldnt be banned, its only 5 charactes.

Click to expand...

who doesnt IC's CG work on? and for D3, its a different case with the dont get grabbed his grab has the longest range in the game besides tethers and pikmin. its hard NOT to get grabbed. im neutral on banning infinite's though

bludhoundz said:

I think it does.

Click to expand...

No it doesn't. Sorry. It SHOULD work that way but alas. Nopers.

bludhoundz said:

I think it does.

Any scrub can just pick up Dedede as a CP for one of these characters and just stand in place pressing z and then down.

At least with IC you have to have some technical skill, you have to get the grab (their grab range is a lot smaller), and you can't be separated.

Oh, they also don't outcamp the characters they infinite. Dedede can pretty much just throw waddles at DK. They block Luigi's fireballs pretty well. Mario has his own fireballs but really a PS does the trick, and Dedede can just move kinda close into ftilt range and spam that. I'm not sure who else he has the infinite on, but his is definitely a lot more unfair.

Click to expand...

wrong. any scrub just standing there trying to shield grab all day shouldn't be beating you if you know about the infinite and how to space. its not easy, but not unbeatable. if your losing to something simple like that well then you need to get better.

brinboy789 said:

who doesnt IC's CG work on? and for D3, its a different case with the dont get grabbed his grab has the longest range in the game besides tethers and pikmin. its hard NOT to get grabbed. im neutral on banning infinite's though

Click to expand...

the IC's cg doesn't work on the ICs cause you can't chain 2 people at a time. and charizards range is the best non tether range.

JigglyZelda003 said:

the IC's cg doesn't work on the ICs cause you can't chain 2 people at a time. and charizards range is the best non tether range.

Click to expand...

at low percentages IC's can grab other IC's and dthrow chain like 3-4 times :3 CG. and i read somewhere (throw guide thingy) that D3 has best grab range tied with somebody else...i guess that person is charizard, but theyre tied at like .67 blocks or something)

JigglyZelda003 said:

wrong. any scrub just standing there trying to shield grab all day shouldn't be beating you if you know about the infinite and how to space. its not easy, but not unbeatable. if your losing to something simple like that well then you need to get better.

Click to expand...

I'm liking his posts more and more. Even if he is a Sonic hater. >.<

i am not a sonic hater XD

=P

So....this thread is dead now? ^_^

I can't understand why anyone would allow an ability that completely disables an opponent. There is nothing they can do. Why is that allowed?

"Don't get grabbed." ....

lol okay, GL Donkey Kong, maybe you should just tell him to use his projectiles too.

Not getting grabbed is possible. Breaking the moveset of your character is not.

i hope so, its stupid, DDD infinite was debunked months ago in that old thread. the last what 10 pages is full of me vs Veggi arguing over it in that thread.

DK can do some spacing with Bair, Dtilt, Ftilt. and he can break out of it. double post XD

DDD infinite was debunked?

go look at the last 10 pages of the threead between me and Veggi. he was mostly typing its not fair, while im like its not exactly fair, but there are ways around it. i haven't really heard it being banned except at a certain few tourneys like MK.

It gets banned in NY tournaments.
Anywaysyou can't DI out of DDD's because its a set trajectory unlike the other characters.

the point of banning something is to make the metagame better, as a last resort.

banning the infinite would make the metagame better.

infinite ban would be a good thing.

it's not like ddd needs any more help in these matchups anyway. :\ except maybe luigi, since he can't be normal cg'd. for the others, ddd can play exactly the same way, except using the normal chaingrab instead of the infinite, and racking up 25% per grab and EDGEGUARD instead of 250% and bthrow for the easy kill.

As a Dedede main I would give a vote to an infinite ban

HeroMystic said:

Sadly the Bowser mains can't join in because it technically isn't an infinite for their case.

Click to expand...

Bowser mains get to join the party too, because from almost any point on any stage, it's still easily a 0-death combo. Functionally, that is exactly the same thing as an infinite.

As far as I can see, the only real argument for not banning this technique is "don't get grabbed." This argument implies that at the highest level of play, Dedede's grab is so difficult to land that it being a one-hit KO wouldn't be a brokenly huge advantage. This is of course ridiculous. In fact, DDD's grab is probably his easiest move to land. It is, I believe, his fastest move, has a huge range, can be used out of shield, and cannot be shielded against. If that move isn't easily enough landed to be broken against the unfortunate 5, then what would be considered broken enough?

The other two arguments I saw on this thread are counterpicking stage and just letting the 5 CG'd characters become obsolete. I believe people have already explained that counterpicking a stage isn't really possible. CG's do not rely on the stage so long as there is a stationary flat surface, and are therefore not really relative to stage. As for accepting the loss of tourney viability of the 5 CG'd characters, why? What reason is there to value DDD's infinite (which would make all of its victims inviable anyways) over the metagame of 5 different characters and essentially their existence in competitive play? Considering this wouldn't even hurt DDD that much, I don't see what opponents of a ban are trying to protect.

On a side note, the actual difficulty of performing a CG is irrelevant. Sure, the actual combination of buttons required to perform a CG like the IC's may be very difficult to execute. The point is that so long as the CGer knows the technique, the other person can do nothing about it. When you're getting CGed, how much practice and timing was required for the other person to learn to do the CG doesn't change the fact that all you can do about it is wait for them to finish. Why does this matter? Because once the grab is landed, how good the other player is ceases to make a difference. What's another word for a free kill that you're opponent can do nothing about? Broken. In analyzing the metagame, both players are assumed to be playing at the highest level, making the difficulty in learning to perform a CG meaningless. The difficulty of landing the grab in the first place is all that makes any difference because it is made difficult by what the other player can do, not just button combinations. Whether a one-hit KO grab would be broken for a certain character is the real question. The game might as well automatically perform the actual CG for you, for all I care.

you forgot cp other characters. that solves the problem too anyone not maining MK, Snake, G@W, Marth, Falco, DDD, possibly Peach and Zelda/Sheik usually do have some cp character to cover for their mains weakest matchs. and ofcourse were talking about the highest lvl of play. and DDDs grab is not that easy to land, easier than the ICs, but not extreamly easy especially if someones good at spacing and moving in ways than prevent instant grab retaliation, like going behind the shield or poke from outside his shield range, projectiles.

Since when do D3's infinites break the game? Last time I checked, D3 does not infinite every single character.

Wobbling DID NOT ruin Melee; it DID NOT make ICs god tier.

The real problem aren't the infinites. It's Meta Knight.