Cia
das kwl
i guess you caught my joke ¬_¬
-
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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
Cia
das kwl
right onnnn duuude
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
that means you're not spacingna it doesnt help me bro if i do that i usaully eat a d smash
which is the reason you suck in sheik dittos, because sheik dittos are entirely spacing
and if you suck at spacing you suck at the game so i suggest improving your spacing
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Please tell me you're joking. I couldn't take it if I misinterpreted another post again.
lol...think about it again...do you REALLY think Sheik dittos rely on spacing?
More than say, CCing stuff into dtilt and super dooper grab spam.
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
I'm bored so I'm actually gonna write up my sheik ditto strategy for you
Okay, Sheik dittos are EASY as ****. You need to do a couple of things beyond all else:
1. Stay on the ground. STAY ON THE GROUND. That means stay away from platforms, too, unless you know you'll get on the ground before them. Whenever a Sheik is above me, I just wait for them to land (or try to land) and fair / utilt / dtilt / dash attack them.
2. Crouch cancel everything. Almost all the time you get hit you can CC into a dtilt. Dtilt is probably Sheik's best move, you need to spam the **** out of it. When you fair a shield, go into a dtilt because they can't shield grab it. BUT YOU MUST SPACE OR I CAN SHIELD YOUR DTILT AND GRAB YOU OUT OF IT!!
3. Spacing. Spacing. Is. Everything. If you don't space, you get grabbed. If you get grabbed, you die. You see, if you space filts into the shield, they can't do anything. If they try to attack you or shield grab, you can respond before them and they'll just eat another tilt. If they roll, they get dash attacked. If they jump, see No. 1. If they spot dodge, you're spaced and they get grabbed. If they don't space, on the other hand, you can shield grab, wd in and shield if they like to throw out moves and then shield grab, or you can nair out of shield. Nair out of shield is the safest thing Sheik has when you're trapped in shield or anything so keep it in mind.
4. DI away. Away away away away away. Otherwise you just eat more tilts. If I ftilt and you don't DI all the way away, I just walk up to you and ftilt you again and again until you do. If your % is too high for me to follow up when you DO DI away, then I cut it short and fair you. You can also get out of dash attack to fair at higher percents if you DI away and up.
I'll break down the matchup in a couple of aspects:
Edge guarding: Sheik is easy as **** to edge guard. Just grab the edge and space bairs or throw needles to make sure Sheik HAS to up b on the stage. After that you can grab, bthrow, throw out the bairs again (but you have to know when the recovering Sheik has spaced herself so you don't just throw it out for no reason, a problem mediocre players have). Or if it's at lower percentages, just grab and CG / dthrow combo.
Grabs: A lot of Sheiks don't combo properly, but Sheik combos the **** out of Sheik. The first thing you want to look for out of the grab is making sure they DIed away. If they didn't, utilt or ftilt **** them. You can't ftilt to fair at lower percents so don't do it, either fair or dsmash. But the gold mine is landing the dash attack out of the dthrow. That is the second thing you should be looking for -- at lower percents if they DI away, dash attack, then you can utilt / ftilt or just fair (at edgeguarding %s).
Low percents: Low percents are the hardest to deal with because Sheik's CC is broken. If you do a dash attack or a dsmash it will be CCed and you will be grabbed or dtilted back and it will hurt. Do not allow this to happen! How? YOU MUST SPACE! Spacing is by far the most important at this juncture (though it's always important). Bairs are my favorite. You can also get away with dsmashes but only if it's perfectly spaced. IME you can get away with spaced dsmashes about 20% and up, but it's still not advisable because you can still get punished out of it and, more importantly, because every time you do a dsmash you had a better option.
Dash attacks kind of work at lowish percents, but you have to make sure you finish the move behind them. I'm pretty sure if you do you have time to buffer a spot dodge if they CC and come after you (watch Drephen vids for more). But it's not advisable if you don't know what you are doing.
Approach: Approaching Sheik is hard because of the CC and gay tilts. This is why I prefer CGs because you are only looking for one grab to end the stock. If you agree to no CGs you have to switch it up a LOT because any one approach you do can get countered and punished really quickly. I have a couple of bread and butter approachs, though:
- Empty short hops. I like using these at low percents because if I space it eliminates their CC, and a lot of (bad) Sheiks like to throw out cc dtilts / dsmash whether you space or not. If you don't space, you get ***** by noob ****, but if you do you can just jump right after and fair them again. Anyway, empty short hop is amazing because it's really versatile. You can reverse needle cancel to a bair, you can feint needles and fair, you can wd back and ftilt if they threw a move out, you can wd back and dash attack, you can wd in place or wd back to space yourself, etc. Be creative.
- Stay on the ground and just walk to your opponent. Here you're just reacting to your opponent, but you have to be careful not to throw out moves or they'll bait it and you'll get *****. Try to push them to the side of the stage where they have to shield, jump, roll, or get the stage. If they refuse to approach you just start camping and throw needles. Remember, all you need is that first 30% or so and you can start comboing like normal, you just have to play REALLY REALLY carefully until you get it. Every percent matters.
- Platform / needle camp. You basically sit right under a platform and make them come to you. Camp needles and bair. Nair out of shield. If they commit themselves to you, you can jump on the platform above you and run away and protect yourself with a bair / isai dropped bair.
I'm a really campy Sheik so a lot of my strategy revolves around camping them and making them do the first move. All you need is one opening and you can literally combo Sheik for the whole stock, so be patient and space. Patience, spacing, and CC. That's the whole matchup.
EDIT: Oh yeah, it goes without saying that the first thing you are looking for in any situation is a grab. If you know they always come down with an aerial before they land, then time a boost grab or jump cancel grab, not a dash attack. If you know the timing of your option is going to succeed, you want the grab first, no matter the percentage.
Okay, Sheik dittos are EASY as ****. You need to do a couple of things beyond all else:
1. Stay on the ground. STAY ON THE GROUND. That means stay away from platforms, too, unless you know you'll get on the ground before them. Whenever a Sheik is above me, I just wait for them to land (or try to land) and fair / utilt / dtilt / dash attack them.
2. Crouch cancel everything. Almost all the time you get hit you can CC into a dtilt. Dtilt is probably Sheik's best move, you need to spam the **** out of it. When you fair a shield, go into a dtilt because they can't shield grab it. BUT YOU MUST SPACE OR I CAN SHIELD YOUR DTILT AND GRAB YOU OUT OF IT!!
3. Spacing. Spacing. Is. Everything. If you don't space, you get grabbed. If you get grabbed, you die. You see, if you space filts into the shield, they can't do anything. If they try to attack you or shield grab, you can respond before them and they'll just eat another tilt. If they roll, they get dash attacked. If they jump, see No. 1. If they spot dodge, you're spaced and they get grabbed. If they don't space, on the other hand, you can shield grab, wd in and shield if they like to throw out moves and then shield grab, or you can nair out of shield. Nair out of shield is the safest thing Sheik has when you're trapped in shield or anything so keep it in mind.
4. DI away. Away away away away away. Otherwise you just eat more tilts. If I ftilt and you don't DI all the way away, I just walk up to you and ftilt you again and again until you do. If your % is too high for me to follow up when you DO DI away, then I cut it short and fair you. You can also get out of dash attack to fair at higher percents if you DI away and up.
I'll break down the matchup in a couple of aspects:
Edge guarding: Sheik is easy as **** to edge guard. Just grab the edge and space bairs or throw needles to make sure Sheik HAS to up b on the stage. After that you can grab, bthrow, throw out the bairs again (but you have to know when the recovering Sheik has spaced herself so you don't just throw it out for no reason, a problem mediocre players have). Or if it's at lower percentages, just grab and CG / dthrow combo.
Grabs: A lot of Sheiks don't combo properly, but Sheik combos the **** out of Sheik. The first thing you want to look for out of the grab is making sure they DIed away. If they didn't, utilt or ftilt **** them. You can't ftilt to fair at lower percents so don't do it, either fair or dsmash. But the gold mine is landing the dash attack out of the dthrow. That is the second thing you should be looking for -- at lower percents if they DI away, dash attack, then you can utilt / ftilt or just fair (at edgeguarding %s).
Low percents: Low percents are the hardest to deal with because Sheik's CC is broken. If you do a dash attack or a dsmash it will be CCed and you will be grabbed or dtilted back and it will hurt. Do not allow this to happen! How? YOU MUST SPACE! Spacing is by far the most important at this juncture (though it's always important). Bairs are my favorite. You can also get away with dsmashes but only if it's perfectly spaced. IME you can get away with spaced dsmashes about 20% and up, but it's still not advisable because you can still get punished out of it and, more importantly, because every time you do a dsmash you had a better option.
Dash attacks kind of work at lowish percents, but you have to make sure you finish the move behind them. I'm pretty sure if you do you have time to buffer a spot dodge if they CC and come after you (watch Drephen vids for more). But it's not advisable if you don't know what you are doing.
Approach: Approaching Sheik is hard because of the CC and gay tilts. This is why I prefer CGs because you are only looking for one grab to end the stock. If you agree to no CGs you have to switch it up a LOT because any one approach you do can get countered and punished really quickly. I have a couple of bread and butter approachs, though:
- Empty short hops. I like using these at low percents because if I space it eliminates their CC, and a lot of (bad) Sheiks like to throw out cc dtilts / dsmash whether you space or not. If you don't space, you get ***** by noob ****, but if you do you can just jump right after and fair them again. Anyway, empty short hop is amazing because it's really versatile. You can reverse needle cancel to a bair, you can feint needles and fair, you can wd back and ftilt if they threw a move out, you can wd back and dash attack, you can wd in place or wd back to space yourself, etc. Be creative.
- Stay on the ground and just walk to your opponent. Here you're just reacting to your opponent, but you have to be careful not to throw out moves or they'll bait it and you'll get *****. Try to push them to the side of the stage where they have to shield, jump, roll, or get the stage. If they refuse to approach you just start camping and throw needles. Remember, all you need is that first 30% or so and you can start comboing like normal, you just have to play REALLY REALLY carefully until you get it. Every percent matters.
- Platform / needle camp. You basically sit right under a platform and make them come to you. Camp needles and bair. Nair out of shield. If they commit themselves to you, you can jump on the platform above you and run away and protect yourself with a bair / isai dropped bair.
I'm a really campy Sheik so a lot of my strategy revolves around camping them and making them do the first move. All you need is one opening and you can literally combo Sheik for the whole stock, so be patient and space. Patience, spacing, and CC. That's the whole matchup.
EDIT: Oh yeah, it goes without saying that the first thing you are looking for in any situation is a grab. If you know they always come down with an aerial before they land, then time a boost grab or jump cancel grab, not a dash attack. If you know the timing of your option is going to succeed, you want the grab first, no matter the percentage.
soap
Smash Hero
he actually speaks the truth. if u space the dtilt right they cant reach u with the cc dsmash, they can only dtilt u back, i used to get into dtilt wars with drephen in our dittos and the first one to have their CC broken usually loses a stock. although now i do smarter stuff like space an aerial over the dtilt.
btw back air spaced perfectly is immune to almost any CC, sh needle turn bair out of shield i find really really useful against the CCers (sheik, samus, peach)
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
Everyone in the world knows you're trying to get a grab. How do you not get grabbed? By spacing yourself.
Spacing is everything. Dude, if all you do is space, and you are amazing at it, that's all you need to do to be great at the game. More than anything spacing is the most important thing in smash. It gets emphasized in Sheik dittos because you only need to be hit once for you to lose your stock really easily. The best defense is a well-spaced offense.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
I knew spacing was important. I just don't think about it to that extent. I'm a Fox main, beyond spacing bairs so I don't get grabbed (then utilt), I basically spam moves into shine.
Fox is so safe. <3
Mad respect P, you know your stuff.
Fox is so safe. <3
Mad respect P, you know your stuff.
Neverender
Smash Journeyman
True true.. But does this mean just camping a spot? Explain.
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
I use it to protect positioning (center stage) and keep people on the edge until I can force them into messing up. After that you can just bait out rolls, which gives you free dash attacks. It forces them into positions where their actions become habitual and you can **** them for it.
And you can also use it to trap people in their shield. Sheik's shield pressure is so good, and you can wait and bait out rolls that get ***** by dash attack.
And you can also use it to trap people in their shield. Sheik's shield pressure is so good, and you can wait and bait out rolls that get ***** by dash attack.
soap
Smash Hero
thats a form of spacing too, u are spacing to make sure u hit them and are deep enough inside to shine to counter their 'keep u the *** out spacing'.
thats actually the hardest part about playing fox for me, is getting back on the offense after u had to shield cuz u cant just sh in place and space moves like sheik and marth, u have to dash dance to get your momentum back but i end up using alot of fox fairs and shineturn bairs cuz i am fox noob
lol
I just follow the m2k way of playing fox
"Jump and Kick"
=D
NeighboorhoodP - I appreciate your input on the shiek ditto. I haven't read through that massive guide but since everyone is saying its amazing I'll put it on the first page that no one bothers to look at
.Good ****
LooksLikePit
Smash Ace
nice sheik ditto guide
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
Dash dancing should be easy cause every character BUT Sheik needs it to ****. Is Sheik the only character you ever play or something?
You guys should check this out
Magus's List of Techs, throws, get-up frame data
Magus's List of Techs, throws, get-up frame data
soap
Smash Hero
wow, fox and jigglypuff have an 8 frame uthrow, no wonder people miss DI
Luma
Smash Lord
didnt read much about that sheik vs sheik "guide", but i can already see you missed 2 points @ egdeguarding:
1. upsmash (depending on stage/% ofc)
2. fair
if you can, try to hit her before she got on the stage again so she wont have another jump
and ofc if you are able to, try to hit it as a reverse fair
hope you got my point
1. upsmash (depending on stage/% ofc)
2. fair
if you can, try to hit her before she got on the stage again so she wont have another jump
and ofc if you are able to, try to hit it as a reverse fair
hope you got my point
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
usmash doesn't kill until forever if it's not sweet spotted
fair can be DIed down and teched
just dair to fair / uair / bair
fair can be DIed down and teched
just dair to fair / uair / bair
soap
Smash Hero
only time fair is good is if u catch them before they land and u reverse it. which is not often
soap
Smash Hero
i wasnt saying i dont know how to dash dance to get grabs and stuff (whats wrong with sheik fox trot dash dance?). But using the dash dance out of a close range standstill to evade rather than just spacing moves. sheik and marth (my two mains) can hold their ground with range at a fairs length standstill, fox has to run, something im not used to.
ive been doing nothing but fox lately to get it smarter.
nicaboy
Smash Champion
wow slow down homei i suck?
no your wrong im came here for advice and how to go about things not get criticed by someone who has not played me.
maybe i said it wrong but allow me to explain
i dont like sheik vs sheik HOWEVER i can play the match up
im well aware on how to fight everyone with sheik all the tips tricks etc etc
but where do you get off tellin me i suck. btw homei i seen early post's by you and where people actualy had to tell you too slow ya role.
yes down tilt is good hell all her titls are good
shieks dittos in a nut shell here tilts chain graps every thing pretty much leading into an f air or just too get her off the stage b air aint half bad either great set up for edgeguarding
anyway man just dont be coming at people the wrong way i really dont know where you get off sayin i suck but ya so you know
oh ya hope you aint write a whole guide for me i didnt really need that im pretty knowledgeable about the game(like most of the community) and good for you you know your stuff i do too
like i said i really dont know where you get off tellin me about my skill level just sayin take that to heart please
soap
Smash Hero
rofl P does kinda talk down to alotta people ill agree with that. im so used to it though i remember reading that post and was like whatever its just P telling someone else they suck
he did say he just made the guide cuz he was bored, there is some useful stuff in there, i dont play so much like him but there was some good stuff i can take from it.
he did say he just made the guide cuz he was bored, there is some useful stuff in there, i dont play so much like him but there was some good stuff i can take from it.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Fair has a hitbox that extends underneath the ledge if you shffl it. You can hit Fox out of his up+b if he's coming from below and it ***** Falcon.
I don't see many people do it though. You're all saying fair is bad as an edge-guard. But shffling a fair and timing it, or just jumping off and doing it - is sooo good.
I don't see many people do it though. You're all saying fair is bad as an edge-guard. But shffling a fair and timing it, or just jumping off and doing it - is sooo good.
soap
Smash Hero
doesnt work on sheiks autosweetspot, hard to hit the fox with the perfect grinding skillz
grab the ledge drop down bair is what is 2 gud, covers like every angle her legs stick out in every crazy direction with invincibility. (use the control stick + cstick like u do for falcos ledehop double laser and u get a bair so low and crispy +ledge regrab...its ridiculous)
grab the ledge drop down bair is what is 2 gud, covers like every angle her legs stick out in every crazy direction with invincibility. (use the control stick + cstick like u do for falcos ledehop double laser and u get a bair so low and crispy +ledge regrab...its ridiculous)
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
Sorry my blunt honesty offends you. Actually, I'm not, but if the truth hurts, maybe you're just not cut out for this game.
Riiiight... That's why you can't even dtilt without getting dsmashed?
Or maybe you should stop being so insecure.
It's rarely done because of habits, mostly. It takes practice mastering the fair hitbox, and Sheiks are so used to doing other stuff that me, personally, I usually forget about it. There is safer stuff to do, and I'm a safe player. If Fox is coming out of his upb from below, I'd nair with invincibility and then needle or fall down and fair. V Falcon I nair / bair / needle until I have enough space to get on the stage and just fair him off. Although reversed fairs do **** him really quickly, it's just not something I think about and have incorporated into my game. It is something way more Sheiks should use but that's the reason why. I don't think anyone said it was bad as an edge guard though.
1) Upsmash does KO but like everyone said it takes a lot of percent for an uncharged upsmash to KO.
2) Fair is a little risky, you have to commit yourself off the stage and if you miss you have to deal with the terrible cool down lag.
I would go with b-air because you can do it and if you miss time it, you can easily grab the edge. Also the range on the b-air is ridiculous its much easier to connect with it.
Fair is really good actually I wouldn't do it to fox, most foxes are able to sweetspot the edge anyway.
It ***** ganondorf really bad, Falcon sweetspot sometimes but if they don't yea its pretty ****. I like n-air personally =D.
Also for sheik I dunno if its been noted but bair works really well for edgeguarding sheiks. m2k does it to me all the time and now I started using it. Just look for a double jump.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
I know the practical ways of edge-guarding. With bair and ledge-frames and nair and all that gay stuff. But I play with KirbyKaze, and he somehow hits me out of upbs with fair ALOT. Its sexual.
Soap: Yes, I know that edge-guarding against Sheik's auto-sweetspot is futile. Its all about the edge baby.
Soap: Yes, I know that edge-guarding against Sheik's auto-sweetspot is futile. Its all about the edge baby.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Friendlies strategy is for friendlies
In tournament I'd always just grab the edge and proceed from there if you're low. Which is what I do. And I usually kill you except when I mess up because of failure.
edit: If I do that in tournament it's because I think (not sure but I think) Fair goes considerably lower than D-smash and her tilts and I find it somewhat easier to time than needles when Fox grinds. And even then I'd only hit with the Fair once. Immediately following the hit I'd drop down and proceed to do more conventional edgeguarding.
Beyond that it's only really useful if they've gone low and there's not enough time to grab the edge. At a more reasonable percent (47ish+) it's more logical to go needles in that situation because while Fair is very techable, needles are magical. Even at the low percent it's probably better to go needles but lol oh well.
In tournament I'd always just grab the edge and proceed from there if you're low. Which is what I do. And I usually kill you except when I mess up because of failure.
edit: If I do that in tournament it's because I think (not sure but I think) Fair goes considerably lower than D-smash and her tilts and I find it somewhat easier to time than needles when Fox grinds. And even then I'd only hit with the Fair once. Immediately following the hit I'd drop down and proceed to do more conventional edgeguarding.
Beyond that it's only really useful if they've gone low and there's not enough time to grab the edge. At a more reasonable percent (47ish+) it's more logical to go needles in that situation because while Fair is very techable, needles are magical. Even at the low percent it's probably better to go needles but lol oh well.
Luma
Smash Lord
1) true, but that backthrow-thing can go on forever
2) not really my point, i was talking about fair'ing after the up-b (so you would go on the stage anyway)
nicaboy
Smash Champion
Sorry my blunt honesty offends you. Actually, I'm not, but if the truth hurts, maybe you're just not cut out for this game.
Riiiight... That's why you can't even dtilt without getting dsmashed?
Or maybe you should stop being so insecure.
It's rarely done because of habits, mostly. It takes practice mastering the fair hitbox, and Sheiks are so used to doing other stuff that me, personally, I usually forget about it. There is safer stuff to do, and I'm a safe player. If Fox is coming out of his upb from below, I'd nair with invincibility and then needle or fall down and fair. V Falcon I nair / bair / needle until I have enough space to get on the stage and just fair him off. Although reversed fairs do **** him really quickly, it's just not something I think about and have incorporated into my game. It is something way more Sheiks should use but that's the reason why. I don't think anyone said it was bad as an edge guard though.
i dont need this but its cool but hey tell me whats the next major tournney you plan on attending? this can be settled with lets say a $5 mm?
1) Why b-throw when you can CG?
2) Fair on the stage is kinda useless. All your opponent has to do is pretty much CC and they can tech the fair and land on the other side of the stage. Well until like 200ish I think.
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
because he's playing PAL. No CG.
Oh....
How different is the PAL version from the NTSC version?
The only difference I'm aware of for Sheik is there is no CGs.
Luma
Smash Lord
for shiek you also cant use the upair as a finisher
2) true, but everything is avoidable, so its only another option, and if the stage is small like fod or ys it should kill, also you can hit the fair before they can cc, and ofc the perfect fair would be before they even touch the ground (and reversed hit)
2) true, but everything is avoidable, so its only another option, and if the stage is small like fod or ys it should kill, also you can hit the fair before they can cc, and ofc the perfect fair would be before they even touch the ground (and reversed hit)
Yea I guess.
B-throw b-air is what m2k did so thats what I recommended.
And
for sheik unable to use upair to kill T_T.
Luma
Smash Lord
yeah, esp d-throw to upair would help against floaties like peach, like this its a very though matchup if you dont spam spaced fairs
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
west coast smash league.
$5 is chump change, but considering you're a chump, sure
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
does bair still defeat peach?