Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

Mocha19 said:

To my knowledge, I thought that if anything could be used in any way to stall for time, then it was banned. Or at least that would be the more fair thing to do. A grab limit would be good or just a regular chain grab.

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that's already been taken care of. you can't do his infinite beyond 300% or it's stalling. there's no point of limiting it as it doesn't break the game.
man, 3 hours later and THC is still being a stubborn *** and thinking his views on competitive smash are right? **** now im glad i was out and didn't have to deal with all the BS arguments he comes up with >_>

That could work too. Good idea. It's much easier just to ban the stalling aspect than the skill itself.

The Halloween Captain said:

Actually, their arguments are a lot stronger to people with only logic than those with competitive knowledge as well. They have not been broken with normal logic, only competitive knowledge logic.

EDIT: Whoops, double post.

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"They are logical... unless you are knowledgeable of the topic at hand."

In other words, they sound logical to those who just don't know better, those with little insight into Competitive gaming and Competitive Smash, in other words, what I said.

The Halloween Captain said:

Look, it really ****'s up the ranking system if that's your solution.

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Oh yes! This is a valid argument for banning it! Let's ban it for f*ing up the ranking system!

The Halloween Captain said:

All the DK, Mario, Luigi, Samus, and Bowser mainers are forced to CP at least once a tournament because D3 is common.

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Same as anyone else with crap match-ups. Deal with it.

The Halloween Captain said:

Who do you think they choose?

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Anyone who doesn't have a crap match-up against D3? And who cares if many of them gravitate towards MK or not? It's their choice.

Of course, you don't want choice. You want to force people to play "diversely", to play with as many different characters as possible. Good characters and tactics need to be banned to maximize "teh diversity" (you were very pro-ban on MK).

MorphedChaos said:

The only character that doesn't need a CP is MK, Every other character has a counter... So don't bring CPs into this unless you wanna argue about MK some more.

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No they don't. Unless you count 60-40 as a counter. If you don't, there are several who don't have counters (Marth, for one).

60-40 is barely a disadvantaged match-up (45:55 being counted as "even") and we see people battle such match-ups all the time (and winning).

XIF said:

If you aren't at least familiar with other fighting games, you don't have much business being in the discussion to begin with, and if allusions to other fighting games confuse people, then they basically need to man the **** up.

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It was established months ago THC has absolutely no insight into Competitive gaming outside of Competitive Smash and even that's questionable. And he seems reluctant to learn, even when the facts are thrown in his face.

He also likes talking out of his behind and participating in deep debates about things he has little to not knowledge and insight into. And, he once argued that PT was most definitely going to become an MK-counter and that Captain Falcon was quite viable, "as [viable] as any character".

dark-war-cloud said:

Are we going to base the banning off of this poll?

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No, that would be stupid. The majority of voters have little to no insight into this matter, haven't motivated their votes and who cares what the majority wants? The majority isn't always right.

Also, look at the Ban MK-poll. It was much more in favor of banning him and see where that lead us.

The Halloween Captain said:

For everyone:
I really like how both the users and the victims of the chaingrab come to this thread and are completely blown off. Lets face it, Shadowlink didn't care about that Luigi player, nor did he care about the opinions of the D3 player (it would have to be a low cap, it's 5 seconds per grab after 150%).

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I really like it how you think it matters what victims of the chaingrab and those who play D3 think.

What matters is what is appropriate. Nobody cares what some random (or not so random) D3 player (or one of his victims) think if they cannot articulate their views and argument sufficiently or maybe not even argue at all.

Nobody cares what they think unless they can motivate their position using valid arguments and facts. Many of them do not possess the necessary insight and knowledge into Competitive Smash or Competitive gaming for us to care what they think.

Some of them say really stupid stuff.

So, no, nobody (credible) really cares what characters people main. What matters is what they say, how well they debate what they think, etc., etc., etc.

In other words, nobody cares what people think! I could care less what M2K or Azen think... unless they are able to motivate their position sufficiently. Otherwise, it's just someone's opinion.

Mocha19 said:

To my knowledge, I thought that if anything could be used in any way to stall for time, then it was banned. Or at least that would be the more fair thing to do. A grab limit would be good or just a regular chain grab.

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Are you saying you've been to tournament where a single Wall Bomb, a single letting go of the edge and regrabbing it, a single Rising Pound or just running away from your opponent was banned?

Or gliding. People with glides and multiple jumps can go under the stage to stall!

Yuna said:

Stall thingy.

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Well.. I guess I shoulda rephrased that better. I guess it was to my knowledge that anything that could stall for an infinite amount of time was banned. I thought that was the main reasoning behind MK's IDC being banned.

That was my mistake in wording. Sorry. =P

Mocha19 said:

Well.. I guess I shoulda rephrased that better. I guess it was to my knowledge that anything that could stall for an infinite amount of time was banned.

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Pretty much everything I mentioned besides maybe gliding fall under that definition.

Mocha19 said:

I thought that was the main reasoning behind MK's IDC being banned.

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It was universally banned because policing it would require too much time and work.

Well.. I guess I'm a noob for not knowing banned stuff. These things usually don't happen in my area anyway.

lol

XxBlackxX said:

that's already been taken care of. you can't do his infinite beyond 300% or it's stalling. there's no point of limiting it as it doesn't break the game.
man, 3 hours later and THC is still being a stubborn *** and thinking his views on competitive smash are right? **** now im glad i was out and didn't have to deal with all the BS arguments he comes up with >_>

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I'm pretty stubborn. Right now, I'm particularly stubborn because there is a logical flaw that is keeping me from being anti-ban - Every poster on every side thinks the D3 infinite is broken. No one wants to ban it, but this is a universal truth. BTW, Yuna technically did not state his opinion, so he's exempt from thinking the D3 infinite is broken.

ShadowLink84 said:

no ****ing way!


Ppinions don't mean jacksquat. A luigi who did not want to use the solution that is there on the account of being stubborn does not matter. What matters is the metagame, how does this infinite affect the metagame. not how it makes people feel, or how much they don't want to cp or anything else.
Either you show the infinite harms the metagame or you don't ban it.

My being a Sonic user doesn't mean **** so I am getting pretty **** tired about hearing how everyone is soooo uncaring about the mains and users.
Frankly, if Sonic was being infinited I would hold the same opinion.


No one cares how those users feels because fraknly, how they feel doesn't contribute to the discussion. Unlesss you can show the infinite harms the metagame then there is no reason to ban it.
Period.

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We know the infinite harms the metagame, so far, the only question has been "How much?"

BTW, you and I have absolutely no perception of how much it does or does not harm the metagame because we do not use characters involved in the matchup. We will never, ever be even slightly influenced by this decision. I continue arguing partially because I enjoy it, but partially because I disagree with the logic being used to decide a ban.

If no one cared, this wouldn't be discussed. Personal opinions always matter at some level, they are the driving force of change. Not the point, though.

I can show that it harms the metagame, for example, through the Luigi user who just posted. He just explained how much the matchup changes when D3 infinites.

The biggest problem with the D3 infinite is it breaks every single match it is used in.

1. How can we all agree it's broken/breaks matchups, and still want it in?

2. Why do we want to keep this infinite so badly?

3. Why do we defend our principles surrounding an aspect of a Video Game which does not affect us?

Please answer. The last one has really been bugging me. Yuna, once again, exempted himself by never actually stating his opinion. No, he just nitpicked one side of the debate to death, because in a legal sense he is right, but in a logical sense it should still be banned because it harms the metagame in every match it is used.

The Halloween Captain said:

1. How can we all agree it's broken/breaks matchups, and still want it in?

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Because it's not enough for a ban.

The Halloween Captain said:

2. Why do we want to keep this infinite so badly?

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Because bans are last resorts, not first ones.

The Halloween Captain said:

3. Why do we defend our principles surrounding an aspect of a Video Game which does not affect us?

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Because it would be selfish to only care about what directly affects us. And it would be highly stupid to rely solely on what the biased people which it affects think.

The Halloween Captain said:

Please answer. The last one has really been bugging me. Yuna, once again, exempted himself by never actually stating his opinion.

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Yes I did. You just didn't see it.

Just because I don't repeat it time and time again does not mean I haven't stated my opinion on this matter.

1. It breaks certain matchups, but isn't universal, therefore doesn't break the game as a WHOLE. and the ruleset is there to keep SSBB playable as a WHOLE while placing least bans/restrctions as possible.

2. Because it doesn't the "criteria" for a ban for reasons stated above. according to your reasoning, which is either "matchup problems" or "no metagame improvement", i say that STILL doesn't warrant a ban because it's not universal. if the infinites could work on all characters, of course they should and would be banned, as it over-centralizes on D3. However, when it's only 6 characters, they just gotta deal with it, as many other characters (i keep bringing up pika vs. fox) have impossible matchups too. many other characters are unviable too. I have said this many times and I'll say it again: as long as it doesn't stop SSBB as a whole from being competitive played, we have no reason to ban it. no, "bad matchup" or "unviable characters" arguments are not good enough.

3. What do you mean, that banning of infinites "don't affect us"?
1st, we as a community SHOULD care about every decision, especially something as important and big of a step as a ban.
2nd, slippery slope argument. this could in turn affect of us.
3rd we need to let the pro-ban people understand what REALLY warrants a ban and what doesn't, or else this debate is never ending. however, some people just won't get it through their heads.

Yuna said:

Because it's not enough for a ban.


Because bans are last resorts, not first ones.


Because it would be selfish to only care about what directly affects us. And it would be highly stupid to rely solely on what the biased people which it affects think.


Yes I did. You just didn't see it.

Just because I don't repeat it time and time again does not mean I haven't stated my opinion on this matter.

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Reason 1. - The key word is want. That is not technically a reason to want something.

Reason 2. - That is also technically not a reason to want something.

Reason 3. - Sounds like missionaries in the Middle Ages

I understand the legal reasons, but you are really passionate about this debate. My motivation comes from seeing the anti-ban views as having a logical fallacy. What about you?

The Halloween Captain said:

3. Why do we defend our principles surrounding an aspect of a Video Game which does not affect us?

Please answer. The last one has really been bugging me.

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Of course it affects you; you would see a larger number of all of the affected characters in tournament play.

The Halloween Captain said:

Reason 1. - The key word is want. That is not technically a reason to want something.

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No, the key words are "It's not reason enough to ban... ever".

The Halloween Captain said:

Reason 2. - That is also technically not a reason to want something.

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If so, why do you want it? Are you saying you want something for no good reason, yet you're arguing passionately for it (with very little to back yourself up on)?

The Halloween Captain said:

I understand the legal reasons, but you are really passionate about this debate. My motivation comes from seeing the anti-ban views as having a logical fallacy.

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Our "logical fallacies" is just your ignorance on how Competitive gaming works. You pretty much admitted to this yourself.

"Your" side has tons of arguments which sound valid... if you have little to no insight into Competitive gaming and Competitive Smash. Likewise, "our" arguments sound invalid... since you do not possess the necessary knowledge to grasp their importance.

So it's basically an Enlightened one backed up by facts and history arguing vs. an Ignorant One talking out of his tuchas because he does not possess the necessary knowledge to debate what he is currently debating.

i shall be needing to go again.
THC, PM me your response to my earlier post so i dont have to search for it again.

Yuna said:

No, the key words are "It's not reason enough to ban... ever".


If so, why do you want it? Are you saying you want something for no good reason, yet you're arguing passionately for it (with very little to back yourself up on)?


Our "logical fallacies" is just your ignorance on how Competitive gaming works. You pretty much admitted to this yourself.

"Your" side has tons of arguments which sound valid... if you have little to no insight into Competitive gaming and Competitive Smash. Likewise, "our" arguments sound invalid... since you do not possess the necessary knowledge to grasp their importance.

So it's basically an Enlightened one backed up by facts and history arguing vs. an Ignorant One talking out of his tuchas because he does not possess the necessary knowledge to debate what he is currently debating.

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But seriously, they sound logically flawed because they are logically flawed. I want it banned badly because the anti-ban side is using flawed arguements based on prior decisions, which ignore the fact that the D3 infinite is in fact broken. If everyone believes a tactic is broken, and the only arguement is that it's character-specific, it seems silly to keep it.

I dont play any of those characters that get infinited, but it is certainly is not fair to them. I though a 0-80% CG by Pikachu was bad. One grab and your dead with one of them. The infinite makes those characters almost unplayable at high levels of competition.

The Halloween Captain said:

But seriously, they sound logically flawed because they are logically flawed. I want it banned badly because the anti-ban side is using flawed arguements based on prior decisions, which ignore the fact that the D3 infinite is in fact broken. If everyone believes a tactic is broken, and the only arguement is that it's character-specific, it seems silly to keep it.

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Blah, blah, prove our arguments are flawed by counter-arguing us instead of just declaring them flawed despite an obvious inability to counter us.

Obviously, the collective Competitive fighting game communities of the world are all wrong while you are right, despite you having no insight into Competitive gaming! I believe this is called */"#(#*:ing arrogance.

Well, the need for something to be game breaking is kinda silly, because it is the game-breaking things that advance the metagame, such as wave dashing in melee.

On the other hand, things that are matchup breaking are silly to keep in. D3's infinite is extremely broken. In fact, it can't be used without breaking the game. At least Pikachu can use a chain grab without breaking the game. But there is never a situation in which a D3 infinite can be used without breaking the matchup. Almost every poster on every side agrees it's broken. There's also a really simple way to fix the broken tactic - ban the infinite.

The problem with the "Does it break the game" arguement, which seems to be an assumed "no," is that there does not seem to be a reason to reserve the ban so rigidly in this situation. The purpose of that arguement is to enable the metagame to develope prior to banning something that turns out to not be all that broken, and develope strategies around it. However, no one is developing stategies to get around a D3 infinite, only methods to get around the D3 shortstep and the D3 chaingrab are being used. No one is even trying to get around it, and often I hear posters advised to simply use a second. This is in direct contradiction of the reason bans are reserved for game breaking tactics.

Since the metagame around D3's infinite is not developing or even being attempted, the entire argument for why competitive communities choose to avoid banning for all but the most game breaking tactics seems kinda silly.

oh definitely i think king dedede's infinite cg should be banned, it's absurd!

BrawlLover said:

oh definitely i think king dedede's infinite cg should be banned, it's absurd!

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Infinite. Not CG, infinite.

The Halloween Captain said:

Infinite. Not CG, infinite.

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It's an infinite chaingrab.

Good god...

Yuna said:

"Your" side has tons of arguments which sound valid... if you have little to no insight into Competitive gaming and Competitive Smash. Likewise, "our" arguments sound invalid... since you do not possess the necessary knowledge to grasp their importance..

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lol so many bad arguments from you lately ^^ seriously, almost all of the points you even DO make are entirely subject to opinion...
your logic sounds ivalid because 90% of the time they are lol... not because what you are saying is beyond most any persons mental capacity... <.<
People in the competitive smash scene are in no ways more anti-ban than pro-ban either lol
And why shouldn't the people's opinions who are effected opinions matter? lol (they're "biased opinions" ????) so what are you saying? only people who don't have anything to do with this should dictate its decision? seriously... there is a reason why almost all higher level dk, samus, luigi, mario, bowser, and DDD mains want this banned... there are quite a few, and no its not because they don't have insight into the competitive gaming scene <.<

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:

The infinite makes those characters almost unplayable at high levels of competition.

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trust me, they wouldn't be viable anyways.

Thats a GD LIE

Bowser, DK and Luigi, are all really good characters.

Yuna said:

So it's basically an Enlightened one backed up by facts and history arguing vs. an Ignorant One talking out of his tuchas because he does not possess the necessary knowledge to debate what he is currently debating.

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lol this kid thinks he buddha right now...

Grunt said:

trust me, they wouldn't be viable anyways.

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Mario says otherwise, ya jerk.

true.
but can you give me any results of these 6 doing well in high levels of play?

Grunt said:

trust me, they wouldn't be viable anyways.

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which is completely wrong.
Have you looked at any of the people who mains these characters??? How can you say that none of them has the capacity for viability when many of them clearly do in tournies??? the "these characters aren't good enough to care about" argue is horrible, please reconsider.

this is stupid, its an infinite people like lolz idiots. and its also extremely easy to use and he has ******** grab range

Hive said:

which is completely wrong.
Have you looked at any of the people who mains these characters??? How can you say that none of them has the capacity for viability when many of them clearly do in tournies??? the "these characters aren't good enough to care about" argue is horrible, please reconsider.

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Still waiting.

how about small step cgs which would most likely be effected as well? Wario, Wolf, Charizard, and Ganondorf, are you seriously gonna say that these characters aren't viable either? As a side note all of these characters also list DDD as one of their worst matchups, lol, not a coincidence...just not as bad as the other 5...

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Wario does well against other top characters which is why he's viable.
everyone else, not so much.
EDIT: nice edit.

lol i didn't edit it for you grunt lol I just didn't feel like getting into the whole small step cg vs. infinite debate that's 100% bound to happen afterwards lol if u want i'll put it back up.

and what are you waiting on exactly???
I know plenty of people who main these characters and are tourney viable, so i sincerely hope that's not it....

for someone to prove me wrong.
I'd be happier than something really happy if someone could show me large high level tournies where these 6 won or at least placed well preferably large regionals or even nationals if you can.

If none exist,


well, you'd better get started.

just come to my tournaments hive, ive taken care of all this dd garbage.



oh hey, grunt...........chew on this!

HIGH levels players. Houston,tx






HOBO 10 (planet zero brawl)
9/6/08

1: Stiltz (olimar/meta)
2: D4vA (meta/snake)
3: Dojo (Meta)
4: DMG (wario)
5: Gnes (kirby/meta)
5: Hylian (Gw)
7: Sandtrap (meta)
7: PowerNap (ddd)
9: Xyro (SAMUS!!!!!!!)
9: RoyR (marth)
9: Infinity (meta)
9: C.Y. (falco)
13: Lee Harris (rob)
13: Ultamate Razer (snake)
13: Mr. 3000 (sonic/ddd)
13: Fogo (ddd)
17: Kalo Kross (marth)
17: Sethlon (falco)
17: Bwett (yoshi)
17: Axe (wolf)
17: Boss (snake)
17: Vash (pit)
17: Pheonix Alpha (Lucas/Lucario)
17: Carnage
25: Kira (marth)
25: Furbs (yoshi)
25: Gea (peach)
25: Santi (toon link)
25: LegendaryPimp (diddy)
25: Broli (marth/fox)
25: Shez
25: UTD Zack (gw)
33: Zori
33: Ozz (falco)
33: Light (not the real light)
33: Ice (snake)
33: Shiken
33: Forbidden Ranger
33: Ricardo (marth)
33: Chris
33: Keith+2 (lucas)
33: Dreoh
33: RocketTrainer (lucario)
33: T-Rex (snake)
33: Kown (pit)
33: Juan the Mexica
33: Dallas Fat
33: Smiley Station (kirby)
49: Vivi
49: HeytallMan (lucas)
49: Azi
49: DSB
49: CoolFool
49: Goof
49: BlueJay
49: Final (ZS)
49: Guy
49: Ricey (marth)
49: Pimp Slap (kirby)
49: IJ
49: Motherboy
49: Shadowstar
49: ABDK (meta)
49: TakeUrLife (marth)
65: L Tizl
65: Axxo (rob)
65: SG
65: Saul
65: Bob
65: Wotts (ZS)
65: Rave
65: Chewy the Player
65: BadNewsBear (pika)
65: Itach
65: TalesDoll (sheik/ic)
65: Dee
65: Esca (diddy)
65: Blacks
65: Lucci
65: Andrey
65: Red Invader
65: Machine
65: JS
65: Void (peach)
65: Gar (marth/falco)
65: Wally (rob)
65: C12 (rob)
65: RB
65: Germ (not the real germ)
65: Bebobli
65: Ding Ding (link)
65: Lid (mario)
65: Salocin (fox)
65: Onin (zelda?
65: Thomas
65: KK (pikachu)
97: Adam
97: Mouf (dk)
97: Nore (peach)
97: Jimbooo(pit)
97: Toast
97: Tilda
97: Azuzu
97: Tony
97: Mac
97: Mister Emo
97: Tuexedo Maniac (wario)
97: Jacob
97: Sammii (pika)
97: Jump
97: Pipes (pkmn trainer)
97: Jim
97: Cake
97: Drab
97: C-Bass
97: John
97: Wolfe (wolf)
97: JXG


HOBO 11 (planet zero brawl)
10/4/08

1: M2K (meta)
2: Azen (lucario/meta)
3: Lee (meta)
4: DMG (wario
5: DSF (snake/meta)
5: Roy_R (marth)
7: Edrees (peach)
7: Hylian (GW/meta?)
9: Chuck (meta/pkmn)
9: Ky (pit)
9: Dojo (meta)
9: Magik (meta/pkmn)
13: Mr. 3000 (sonic/ddd)
13: Infinity (meta)
13: Ultamate Razor (snake)
13: Axe (wolf)
17: Fliphop (diddy)
17: Domo (meta)
17: UTD Zack (GW)
17: Dr. Mario Kart (meta)
17: Light
17: Santi (Tlink)
17: Xyro(SAMUS!!!)
17: Thien (diddy)
25: Nynja (diddy)
25: Lee Harris (rob/meta)
25: Zori (olimar)
25: Ice (snake)
25: Kown (pit)
25: Affinity (meta)
25: Bad News Bear (pika/wolf)
25: Bwett (yoshi)
33: T-Rex (snake)
33: ArturitoBurrito (ike)
33: Kira (marth/snake
33: Bluejay (mario)
33: Kosmos (peach/ZS)
33: Vash (pit)
33: Kalo (marth/wolf)
33: Sethlon (falco)
33: Salocin (meta/fox)
33: Furbs (yoshi)
33: Carnage (meta)
33: Gar (falco/marth)
33: C.Y. (falco)
33: Dingding (link)
33: Broli (fox/marth)
33: Axxo (falco/meta)
49: Kado (falco)
49: Mr.Sir.Dr.Daddy
49: Chaddly
49: Zeton (fox)
49: Trela
49: Gea
49: Heytallman (lucas)
49: Sam388
49: Swoll (ganon)
49: Toast
49: Tuxedo Maniac (wario)
60-112=pool players who didnt make it out

perfect timing Xyro, I assume you've placed well in tournaments in your area? Links or even just names would great.

Grunt said:

for someone to prove me wrong.
I'd be happier than something really happy if someone could show me large high level tournies where these 6 won or at least placed well preferably large regionals or even nationals if you can.

If none exist,


well, you'd better get started.

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You mean Bum?

*one post up*
same for you.

@xyro I'm jealous! norcal needs to get its **** together too lol ^^

@ grunt
as far as samus goes
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201773
is a thread that details some of the tourney results posted there... xyro and tudor both consistently place well in tournies, and I would consider both tourney viable...
also rohins is another very viable samus main in washington who places well, and hasn't posted there...
N00b, Orly, and Serris I'm pretty sure also do pretty well...
personally, most of the cgcsfsu tournies i've been to I also manage about 20/50 with samus
Locally I know TC1 as well, who plays mario and does very well in sf and I'm pretty sure heromystic does well in florida too...
also Bum (on the east coast), gimpyfish (nw coast, bowser).... etc...
there are really many people that can do good with these characters in tournies. Saying that these characters don't matter, I just don't think is right.
If this is not enough i can pull up more as well...

Considering the people i play in Houston(and the people that travel to houston) i placed very well. If a person expects a samus(mario/bowser.....ect) to place top 5.........thats very unrealistic. top 13 is even pushing it in some cases.


You dont look at where those 6 place. its not about how far the GET with the ICG being allow. its about how fast they get knocked out with the ICG being allowed.

At mega high levels you would expect those 6 to know about the ICG. But on the same token at high levels a DDD is ****ing GOOD and will also know about what those 6 can do to get around it. And in the long run, ddd needs 1-2 grab attempts to do his work while we(those 6) must be PERFECT the WHOLE match.


it CAN be done.....but its something that those 6 shouldnt have to go thru. DDD can still do his regular CGs and all....just get rid of the ICG. No matter what ANYBODY says, a TRULY good ddd can still win against those 6 without the ICG and it still forces use (those 6) to be near perfect in that match-up.

Xyro77: 9th out of 97 entrants at HOBO 10 at Houston, TX on September 6, 2008
Xyro77: 17th out of 112 entrants at HOBO 11 at Houston, TX on May 3, 2008
Xyro77: 7th out of 97 entrants at HOBO 8 at Houston, TX on June 26, 2008
This looks pretty good.^^
Tudor: 25th out of 88 entrants at at Las Vegas, NV in May
Tudor: 65th out of 303 entrants at AxisGaming in Emeryville, CA on August 30, 2008.
and then, lol. sorry Tudor. XD

BTW I never said they don't matter, I said they'd still do just as bad as normal without the infinite, but I hope to be proven wrong.