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Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]
- Thread starter Scar
- Start date
Scar
#HarveyDent
lmao Are you serious??? I just started doing that. @ CT 2 weekends ago in teams tourney I sh fB'd off the stage and in singles loser's semifinals I sh Falcon Punched offstage, both trying to sh knee..I accidently hit b somtimes whenever I try to use the c-stick
beat that
epic of DE
Smash Journeyman
I'd actually like to ask you two questions scar.
Its mostly due to lack of fighting experienced Sheik mains (not a popular choice here in DE...) but I found myself really perplexed after losing first round to R3NO as SPOC and I'd like to know what throws at what percents as well as your personal experience in terms of dealing with very patient shieks that wait for you to react.
Also In teams when your partner is down and out and both players on the other team are still standing what is your thoughts in terms of dealing wiht 2v1 fights?
Its mostly due to lack of fighting experienced Sheik mains (not a popular choice here in DE...) but I found myself really perplexed after losing first round to R3NO as SPOC and I'd like to know what throws at what percents as well as your personal experience in terms of dealing with very patient shieks that wait for you to react.
Also In teams when your partner is down and out and both players on the other team are still standing what is your thoughts in terms of dealing wiht 2v1 fights?
Scar
#HarveyDent
Uthrow at low % sucks vs Sheik, she breaks out of stun before you can nair and slaps you, so don't do that. Uthrow @ very low %s you can regrab vs certain DIs, so that's the only thing I'd try below 30.
At 30 and above, uthrow uair combos, so you can get some nice juggles in and try to get an edgeguard on her, but as we all know uthrow doesn't have enough hitstun or knockback to get her far enough offstage to effectively edgeguard.
Dthrow has more stun so if she DI's in you can definitely dthrow nair at all kinds of percents, but this rarely happens. More frequently you will find yourself trying to tech chase her, but her techrolls are incredibly long so take a guess and dair/knee. As bad an option as this is, it's the best option at low-mid percents. Also Sheik can be dthrow dropzoned at around 30-50, I've had great success with that.
In teams honestly I just try to knee the one with the highest percent. Hax is maddd good @ 2v1s with CF, I don't know how he does it but we should both ask him.
At 30 and above, uthrow uair combos, so you can get some nice juggles in and try to get an edgeguard on her, but as we all know uthrow doesn't have enough hitstun or knockback to get her far enough offstage to effectively edgeguard.
Dthrow has more stun so if she DI's in you can definitely dthrow nair at all kinds of percents, but this rarely happens. More frequently you will find yourself trying to tech chase her, but her techrolls are incredibly long so take a guess and dair/knee. As bad an option as this is, it's the best option at low-mid percents. Also Sheik can be dthrow dropzoned at around 30-50, I've had great success with that.
In teams honestly I just try to knee the one with the highest percent. Hax is maddd good @ 2v1s with CF, I don't know how he does it but we should both ask him.
DrewB008
Smash Lord
ive done the accidental b buttons instead of c stick a lot, really recently ive had a couple instances where i hit a instead of b, that **** just blows my mind when it happens. trying to recover then just doing an uair, its pretty sad.
in 2v1 just dont grab or get grabbed, do quick moves like bair and uair a lot then surprise someone with a knee. if somebody can possibly be killed, take a risk and go for the kill cause you need to get kind of lucky to win a 2v1 anyway.
yeah i dunno scar i just saw a vid of you beating him a while back and hes one of only a few players at this tournament im scared of, plus i figured id ask you a question for once instead of just answering people when youre not around
in 2v1 just dont grab or get grabbed, do quick moves like bair and uair a lot then surprise someone with a knee. if somebody can possibly be killed, take a risk and go for the kill cause you need to get kind of lucky to win a 2v1 anyway.
yeah i dunno scar i just saw a vid of you beating him a while back and hes one of only a few players at this tournament im scared of, plus i figured id ask you a question for once instead of just answering people when youre not around
demodemo
Smash Ace
thanks guys, i'll work on being more precise. i've been playing for about a month or so, so i guess i still have lots to work on.
i have been trying to do the uair>DJ>knee nearly everyone does, but i'm having trouble being fast enough. i have managed to pull it off once, but that was by pressing a+control stick, even though i usually shffl my knees with cstick. do you use cstick for knee after a uair DJ?
i have been trying to do the uair>DJ>knee nearly everyone does, but i'm having trouble being fast enough. i have managed to pull it off once, but that was by pressing a+control stick, even though i usually shffl my knees with cstick. do you use cstick for knee after a uair DJ?
Scar - How did you learn how to moonwalk? For the life of me I still cannot do that ****. I read like every guide and I just don't get it 
.
Any advice on what I should be thinking when I try to practice it?
YEAUZZZ AT Tristate MELEE!
Also we need to play, in tourney, friendlies, ANYTHING. I haven't played you in like months and I ALWAYS see you.
.Any advice on what I should be thinking when I try to practice it?
YEAUZZZ AT Tristate MELEE!
Also we need to play, in tourney, friendlies, ANYTHING. I haven't played you in like months and I ALWAYS see you
.
DC showed me how to do it though. He does moonwalks like perfectly and always seems to go the full length.
.... and I still can't do it.. I've been dying to moonwalk falcon punch someone.
DC said something about a circle or something I just want an idea what to do and advice on what my mindset should be while practicing.
But Drakula backwards. I will be at your biweekly to play you in sexy matches. And I don't mean we are playing melee.
.... and I still can't do it.
. I've been dying to moonwalk falcon punch someone.DC said something about a circle or something I just want an idea what to do and advice on what my mindset should be while practicing.
But Drakula backwards. I will be at your biweekly to play you in sexy matches. And I don't mean we are playing melee
.
onlymaskde
Smash Lord
The basic technique to do it is all you need to learn as a basis, then practice that as much as you need to. Speed is all you're working on once you know what to do. The guides I've seen on here/youtube hardly helped me, but there actually isn't much to it. Just know that you need to get from point A to point B (in this diagram) very quickly. The faster you get away from point A, the better the moonwalk will be. To get the full length, you need to get the hang of holding the control stick back the right amount of time.Scar - How did you learn how to moonwalk? For the life of me I still cannot do that ****. I read like every guide and I just don't get it
Any advice on what I should be thinking when I try to practice it?
So basically to get the best moonwalk possible.
I have to move my control stick in a straight line?
I have to move my control stick in a straight line?
onlymaskde
Smash Lord
Kinda. I dunno if you'd get the best moonwalk possible from that, but the idea behind it is that it's a quick way to get the control stick across. Don't worry about moving in a straight line, just get it across as fast as you can, then you'll know which way works for you.
Ok so if I am using all my english knowledge correctly which I am probably not cuz I hate english.
I have to move my control stick in a semi circle somewhere in between the path of B and C.
And the closer I get the curve to go along C the farther the moonwalk?
I have to move my control stick in a semi circle somewhere in between the path of B and C.
And the closer I get the curve to go along C the farther the moonwalk?
onlymaskde
Smash Lord
Technically, yeah, that's all true. If it helps, the way I learned it was by not following anything other than the basic technique, then doing it whichever way the quickest I could. I didn't really pay attention to what I was specifically doing (and I still don't).
NES n00b
Smash Master
Don't move the stick as far downards as far as you can go. The important points are forward down, back and down, and back. So when you do the moonwalk, you go the direction you want to go, then press the opposite direction you want to go and down at about an 1/8th down the circle or half way between the total horizontal and total vertical (note you do not have to go horizontal I am pretty sure my fingers don't do that), then go straight till you are on the other side (which instead of making a semi circle you take the shortest distance route necessary), then follow the circle upwards until you get the direction you want to go (cause this is the fastest way no matter how you think about it). So basically go as fast as you can while skimping on the parts you can skimp.
Remember the only important parts are the half way points of the horizontal and vertical and the direction you want to go. So your movement should resemble a part of a circle at the last part of the step.
Edit: **** I suck.........at giving advice.
aquteen
Smash Ace
swift crew battle was lol.
Just out of curiosity who else at the tourney are you actually scarred of facing?
DrewB008
Smash Lord
lots of other people really, this tourney is gonna be relatively dense in talent compared to previous ones
soap
Smash Hero
Milos
Smash Lord
in simple terms
move the control stick from one side to the other as fast as you can without letting it go through the center.
tubes
Smash Ace
>, V<, < to moonwalk left
<, V>, > to moonwalk right
I'd check out the moonwalk guide if I were you though. It has what NES just explained in drawn form.
ac_burito
Smash Journeyman
so ive come to the conclusion that i am awful at edge guarding with falcon and pretty much every other character, but specifically falcon. i know a lot of it is situational but do yall have any advice on how to improve, things to do, or even some videos to watch that would maybe help? thanks
Mokumo
Smash Ace
Hog the ledge, stay invincible so you dont get hit, and when they land in front of you punish the lag from their up B with a knee. Or jump off the stage and falcon punch them. Falcon's up tilt is amazing too because of its priority and it hits under him.
Scar
#HarveyDent
utilt is supposedly good but i can't make it work
When I started out playing Falcon I experimented a lot with weak knee > uair offstage (weak knee has a ton of priority and stays out for a long time), and ledgehog>fastfall>dj bair.
I really recommend getting used to the latter, it's really good.
Other fun offstage edgeguards include running off, fastfalling below your opponent and dj uairing.
Other than that work on ledgehog timing so that when you grab the ledge, you are invincible during the frames that are most inconvenient for your opponent. CF's ledgestalls blow and he's vulnerable a good amount of the time so make every invincibility frame count.
Do your best to get the edgehogs when you can, and when your opponent isn't going for the edge, ledgehop knee if you can, otherwise just get back to a neutral position b/c CF's ledge options are pretty bad.
When I started out playing Falcon I experimented a lot with weak knee > uair offstage (weak knee has a ton of priority and stays out for a long time), and ledgehog>fastfall>dj bair.
I really recommend getting used to the latter, it's really good.
Other fun offstage edgeguards include running off, fastfalling below your opponent and dj uairing.
Other than that work on ledgehog timing so that when you grab the ledge, you are invincible during the frames that are most inconvenient for your opponent. CF's ledgestalls blow and he's vulnerable a good amount of the time so make every invincibility frame count.
Do your best to get the edgehogs when you can, and when your opponent isn't going for the edge, ledgehop knee if you can, otherwise just get back to a neutral position b/c CF's ledge options are pretty bad.
L1M3
Smash Cadet
Scar, what do you think are good stages for a Falcon and Marth team, 'cause i have a tournament coming and it would be good to know.
papermarkis
Smash Lord
Marth doesn't really have any bad stages, so just choose anything that'll work for Falcon.
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
corneria is horrible for marth.
not always ... DEFINITELY not always
aquteen
Smash Ace
but it's defiantly not a good stage for him
Keblerelf
Smash Ace
jungle japes is pretty bad for marth.
DrewB008
Smash Lord
marth is fine on corneria
scar thanks but swift beat me
scar thanks but swift beat me
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
Marth is bad on most of the cp stages.
Scar
#HarveyDent
Yeah he beat Jiano too so no big deal... I think you need Cactuar practice to be able to beat Cactuar-style Foxes.
The general counterstrategy is realizing that the Fox's strategy is to punish all of your attempted aerials. This is because Fox is basically fast enough to jump and nair/bair ON REACTION after you jump and before your knee/dair comes out.
This yields important consequences. The most important of these is that when you're in shield and the Fox is near you, you have very few options. Uair and bair are too high to hit quickly but sometimes you can catch a Fox that's behind you w/ bair... knee and dair don't work vs this strategy. If Fox is in front of you, depending on spacing you can hit him w/ nair or trade nairs, trading is generally bad though so jump at your own risk.
Your other options therefore are rolling away, which is bad, or wavedashing out of shield, which is probably your BEST option. You really are this limited though, and it's in a situation that you find yourself in often. Good ideas are not trapping yourself in your shield and running around a lot instead, and focusing on staying in the middle of the stage.
The other gay thing about Cactuar's Fox (and all Foxes at this point, really) is the edgeguard. Stay away from the edge because wisely chosen bairs/shines are enough to kill you at any percent.
The key to winning is to get at least 4 first hits and making them count. A LOT.
DrewB008
Smash Lord
yeah i like to wd out of shield a lot, i only got 1 or 2 grabs the whole set was my biggest problem though. he switched up when he would spot dodge, which is when i would like to start combos, versus when he would do a second aerial or a shine a lot of the time and i couldnt get a handle on it. i still got both matches down to last stock just by knocking him down with nair or uair and kneeing him mostly, but ive never been much good at getting those first hits in. im used to that type of fox playing because juke has the strategy pretty much down as well, but theres only so much you can do even when youre used to it so long as they dont make drastic mistakes.
retreating a bair out of shield is generally not too bad though, a lot of time neither person gets hit but you at least get to reset the situation.
retreating a bair out of shield is generally not too bad though, a lot of time neither person gets hit but you at least get to reset the situation.
Scar
#HarveyDent
Good call I never thought of that, I'm gonna try it and retreating nair when Fox is in front of CF.
soap
Smash Hero
bair autocancels too if u do it rising and delay the fastfall a sec, i.e. retreat it
GooeyBanana
Smash Lord
Scar, or anyone that has played a Shiek, I have a question or two. Today I participated in a Melee tournament that honestly was full of a bunch of scrubs(Like maybe...5 good people including myself I'd say) but obviously, there was 4 other threats. Anyways, I got eliminated by a Shiek and it really annoyed me on a few concepts.
The first thing that annoyed me was when it was on FD, and whenever I'd UpB to recover, he'd be somewhere in between the middle of the stage and the ledge where I'm recovering and using his needles(No jumping needles, just standing there and throwing them). No matter how hard I tried to sweetspot that ledge, it seemed to me that the needle would hit me on maybe the tip of my heels as I'm about to finish recovering, and eventually I'd just end up racking up too much damage and end up dying from trying recovery alternatives which also failed. Any help on this part? Is it just because FD is like that?
The second thing that got to me was I could literally never hit a knee on his Shiek. Basically 80% of my aerials were shielded and occasionally shieldgrabbed if I was in front of him. I started to place my aerials behind him so at least he couldn't shield grab me, and I guess that worked, but it doesn't give me any %. Seeing as basically none of my aerials were hitting Shiek on FD unless she was in the air, it was rather difficult to land a knee. I tried dthrow to knee but I'm guessing my timing is off? I do not lie when the only knee I connected was when I jumped from the ledge and knee'd while he was recovering with UpB.
I hate to admit it, but these little nuances really got to me, but I'm still going to play as Falcon ^_^ Anyways, help is very much appreciated, hopefully you can handle a few runon sentences!
The first thing that annoyed me was when it was on FD, and whenever I'd UpB to recover, he'd be somewhere in between the middle of the stage and the ledge where I'm recovering and using his needles(No jumping needles, just standing there and throwing them). No matter how hard I tried to sweetspot that ledge, it seemed to me that the needle would hit me on maybe the tip of my heels as I'm about to finish recovering, and eventually I'd just end up racking up too much damage and end up dying from trying recovery alternatives which also failed. Any help on this part? Is it just because FD is like that?
The second thing that got to me was I could literally never hit a knee on his Shiek. Basically 80% of my aerials were shielded and occasionally shieldgrabbed if I was in front of him. I started to place my aerials behind him so at least he couldn't shield grab me, and I guess that worked, but it doesn't give me any %. Seeing as basically none of my aerials were hitting Shiek on FD unless she was in the air, it was rather difficult to land a knee. I tried dthrow to knee but I'm guessing my timing is off? I do not lie when the only knee I connected was when I jumped from the ledge and knee'd while he was recovering with UpB.
I hate to admit it, but these little nuances really got to me, but I'm still going to play as Falcon ^_^ Anyways, help is very much appreciated, hopefully you can handle a few runon sentences!
Kike_Ichigo
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2007
- Messages
- 56
Basically your are saying what was you mistake... if you do the Aerial and get SHIELDgrabbed then... do a Back Empty Jump and when He try to Grab you then you could Grab Him... against Sheik you need too do ALL THE THINGS YOU COULD cause Sheik is Fisic made too Own a C. Falcon... but that doesnt mean that you cant be over her and take the game for you... you just need to explote all the possibilitys for take her one stock... an Advices.... ate 70% ~ 105% if you Uthrow you could do a Full Jump > Knee and over 110% is a Dthrow > Shffld Knee... this could Help you for an easy kill... and yes FD is just ****ing bad for you against Sheik... cause you cant have mindgame´s with the platforms... but at the same time you can hit her more easly with a Dair... that is a REALLY GOOD HIT against Sheik... Dair and Uair will be you friend... Dair against a Standing-on-the-floor-Sheik... and your Uair will help you against a Most-Air Game-Sheik... Ill hope that will help you... and remember... Grabs Helps a lot... Tech-chasing with a dair or another Grab it will Help you ^^
Paranormalsin
Smash Ace
may seem like a very dumb question to ask, but i guess its bc youre a good falcon and can prolly help me.
Anyway, i like the idea and concept behind moonwalking. i can consistantly moonwalk to the left side of stages (dash right moonwalk to the left) however i can not for the life of me get the muscle memory to do it the other way. So my question is, do you have any pointers on ways to possibly better myself at this? i know practice is good but like i said, i cant get it, so im looking for possible other ways to try and learn it. even if it means having to set it up in some crazy absurd way to moonwalk right, id be happy cause then my friends will stop fcking joking with me and i can smile for once :/
Anyway, i like the idea and concept behind moonwalking. i can consistantly moonwalk to the left side of stages (dash right moonwalk to the left) however i can not for the life of me get the muscle memory to do it the other way. So my question is, do you have any pointers on ways to possibly better myself at this? i know practice is good but like i said, i cant get it, so im looking for possible other ways to try and learn it. even if it means having to set it up in some crazy absurd way to moonwalk right, id be happy cause then my friends will stop fcking joking with me and i can smile for once :/
Reaver197
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2006
- Messages
- 1,287
lol, I used to have the same issue, but the other way around. I could only moonwalk to the right, but couldn't do it at all to the left. However, now I can do it absolutely fine in both directions. It really is just practice. Just keep trying it, and try to understand what you do that makes it work in one direction, then try to mimic in the other. There really isn't any pointers to give about it, if you already can do it.