Dash Attack > REVERSE Boosted Pivot Grab (With New Video!)

Ingulit · Feb 4, 2009

**THIS THREAD HAS BEEN COMPLETELY RE-WORKED TO REFLECT A NEWER, BETTER VERSION OF THE OLD "COMBO." THIS ONE IS MUCH MORE USEFUL, AND I HAVE BEEN USING IT EFFECTIVELY IN NON-WIFI MATCHES (NOT JUST AGAINST COMPUTERS). DISCUSSION BEGINS ON PAGE 2**

To rehash the old thread, the basic idea is to follow a Dash Attack with a Boosted Pivot Grab when the opponent isn't hit very far by the Dash Attack (or, in some cases, when they don't move at all); the primary difference in this version is that the Boosted Pivot Grab is in REVERSE, IE the direction you just dash attacked from (watch the video to see what I mean). This combo works even if the opponent shields through or Spot-Dodges the Dash Attack (as long as you attack through the shield to the other side of the opponent), which is the best use I've found for it so far (it punishes those who fail to shield-grab you immediately). The Boosted Pivot Grab also slides both you and your opponent a good distance while you're holding (and pummeling) them, allowing you to move your opponent out of their advantageous stage position or to slide them closer to the edge to throw them off. This combo is best used in matchups where you really want to grab the opponent but it is difficult to do normally due to your subpar normal grab length (if I'm not mistaken, the Pivot Grab is indeed longer); Link and Olimar come to mind first, but that's only because they're the only ones I have much practice against.

DFEAR has done some testing with DI and has concluded that this is inescapable until about 30%. After that, you can indeed escape this if you DI up and jump out of it (thank you AlphaZealot). Without further ado, the combo and a demonstration video follow:

The combo is as follows:
Dash Attack > Reverse Boosted Pivot Grab > Pummel/Throw/etc.

The button input for a GC controller is as follows:
Dash > C-Stick Down (Dash Attack) > Dash Backwards > C-Stick Down + Z Grab + Forward on Control Stick (Reverse Boosted Pivot Grab) > Pummel/Throw/etc.

Video demonstration against Link in Training Mode (I couldn't get a human to test it with, but after using it several times in matches, I'm sure this version works):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVDrYr_6g8Y

Kaptain Kong · Feb 4, 2009

nice stuff
is b throw to dair really that hard to escape?
it'll have to be tested in a tourney or friendlies

Ingulit · Feb 4, 2009

I've figured out you can Boost Pivot Grab in either direction after the Dash Attack as sort of a tech chase, enabling you to use this combo at much, much higher percents. The spike will be harder to set up, but you'll get the grab in and swing the momentum in your favor.

The video is taking much, much longer to upload than I expected; it should be done soon, and I'll edit the OP to reflect that once it is.

xoxokev · Feb 4, 2009

IF this is inescapable, hopefully it is, Diddy's spike isn't really that strong at low percents... so the opponent can easily recover

Ingulit · Feb 4, 2009

Really, is actually is very escapable; you'll notice it in my video, once the darn thing uploads. This is not a *true* combo; it's just a way of chaining your dash attack into a grab (in this case, a Boost Pivoted one), which against some characters are very difficult to come by (grabs, that is). The video will explain a lot more about what it looks like in action; again, with proper DI or timing, the OPPONENT can get out of it rather easily, but there are cases where they're going to fall for it. Now that I've noticed you can Boost Pivot either direction after the grab, it becomes much more inescapable once you've noticed where the dash attack sends your opponent, but it remains very escapable by simply shielding the dash attack or DIing away. Again, the video explains it all. (DARN YOUTUBE

)

Ingulit · Feb 4, 2009

Sorry about the double post, but the video is finally uploaded. I had expected it to have finished before anyone saw this thread; sorry it wasn't there in the first place. Anywho, it's up, and it should explain a lot. Go watch! :D

Le_THieN · Feb 4, 2009

Wow.

I'll go ahead and state what everybody else is too afraid to point out, but couldn't you have gotten someone else with a little more technical proficiency to do this video?

Also, this "combo" is not very good.

Ingulit · Feb 4, 2009

I'm going to post a video of following the dash attack with a reverse pivot grab later. Again, it can be used at much higher percents when the opponent isn't hit very far by the dash attack as something of a tech chase, which can then be followed up by anything out of grab. To be fair, I oughtn't have called this a "spike setup"; moreso, this is a way to get in a grab on those who shield your Dash Attack by fail to shield grab, or against those who aren't hit very far by the dash attack (either at low percents or when hit a certain way at higher percents). If nothing else, this is something else to do out of a dash attack, and it can be used with cartwheeling (Glide Toss backward, Dash Attack forward) as a sort of mindgame. The next video I'll post will be from actual matches; the training mode video was something of a proof of concept.

Le_THieN said:
Wow.

I'll go ahead and state what everybody else is too afraid to point out, but couldn't you have gotten someone else with a little more technical proficiency to do this video?

Also, this "combo" is not very good.

I'll admit, I didn't have the muscle memory down pact when I made the video, but I wanted to get the idea out there regardless. I also wanted to show that it's much harder to do on lighter characters even without the opponent's DI, which is why I included the many whiffs against Jiggs.

And please expound upon why this "'combo' is not very good," for just one higher-up poster saying that can ruin its potential without ever offering any insight as to why it's not viable. Any input could allow the concept to be expounded upon and improved, thereby helping the Diddy metagame by incorporating Boosted Pivot Grabs into his gameplay (something many other characters' mains have been doing for a long while).

DFEAR · Feb 4, 2009

a more secured spike set up is a simple dash attack where the final attack puts the opponent forward with hitstun for a free fair or sh dair which is indeed a true combo unless DI properly or airdodge within the frames. this is nifty tho i love dash attacking pivot grabbing but never thought it be set up for spike it be a good surprise mindgames for opponents thanks tho =D

bludhoundz · Feb 4, 2009

I wouldn't really consider this such a great spike setup, honestly.

However the combo itself, Dash attack -> Pivot grab, is a pretty nice one.

Le_THieN · Feb 4, 2009

The primary flaw of this setup is that not only is hit-stun long over by the time you initiate your eternal dash into the pivot grab, but that you also actually grant the opponent time to think about which way he or she ought to DI and how to counter-attack. The point to "comboing" in a game like Brawl (especially with a character like Diddy Kong) is to actually create the illusion of inescapability with relentless pressure. Giving your opponent virtually an entire second to act while you run circles around him trying to setup some underwhelming spike kill will only cause you to eat all sorts of D-airs or B-airs; or, you will just look silly when you realize that your opponent's already smash-DIed the complete opposite direction.

This is not a sound setup in any sense of the word.

GooseMainsDiddy · Feb 4, 2009

Le_THieN said:
The primary flaw of this setup is that not only is hit-stun long over by the time you initiate your eternal dash into the pivot grab, but that you also actually grant the opponent time to think about which way he or she ought to DI and how to counter-attack. The point to "comboing" in a game like Brawl (especially with a character like Diddy Kong) is to actually create the illusion of inescapability with relentless pressure. Giving your opponent virtually an entire second to act while you run circles around him trying to setup some underwhelming spike kill will only cause you to eat all sorts of D-airs or B-airs; or, you will just look silly when you realize that your opponent's already smash-DIed the complete opposite direction.

This is not a sound setup in any sense of the word.

I agree with him here. I wouldn't even fall for this. I DI every chance I get.

Ingulit · Feb 4, 2009

I need to remove "Spike Setup" from the description. Does the Dash Attack to Pivot Grab still stand?

And just to add, I've been practicing with Pivot Grabbing the other direction (IE, the direction you just dash attacked from), and it seems much more fluid than the Pivot Grabbing the same direction as the Dash Attack, as I was doing in the video. I'll post a video of that, for it seems like it'd be much more applicable than what I'm currently demonstrating.

EDIT: I'm going to revise this topic, approaching it from a different angle (with a different and better video). I shouldn't have mentioned spiking in the first place; this is really all about the dash attack > pivot grab. Now that I know what not to do, I'll present it better this time.

Le_THieN · Feb 4, 2009

Ingulit said:
I need to remove "Spike Setup" from the description. Does the Dash Attack to Pivot Grab still stand?

If you're not setting yourself up for a flashy-looking grab to follow up with something else, then what's the point? There are about seven or eight other different methods of follow-up out of the cartwheel that I think of that would not only be more useful to Diddy Kong mains, but would also tack on more damage and set up for a D-air spike anyway. None of the suggestions I'm thinking of give the opponent much time or room to think or breathe, if at all.

Think about it: in the space and time that you spend running past your airborne opponent, you could have done a number of other things to them in order to force bad DI and positioning on them. With this method of yours, not only do you give them a chance to reposition, but you also grant them the opportunity to actually punish you. What answer do you have whenever you knock Meta Knight into the air with your dash attack, and he just decides to start derailing your setup by mashing on C-stick D-air after he sees your setup once?

Feel free to experiment with this some more, but I just don't think it's a good or viable setup at all.

mastermiind · Feb 4, 2009

ok so first of all id like to say good find cus i never even thought about boost pivoting with diddy and i definately wouldnt of thought u could do it in both directions

okok but heres what i realy gotta say

back throw to dair is more of a fools spike because it will only work on people who jump afer u throw them dont get me wrong it can work more then once but it doesnt work to many times simply because its not a perfect combo and requires them to jump
this is why i call it the fools spike

since what ur sayin does and can work i must give u ur props

chimpact · Feb 5, 2009

I would try doing the Side B after the pivot grab since they can't really DI up, because the pivot grab would be unexpected.

istudying · Feb 6, 2009

When will you setup the video?

Ingulit · Feb 9, 2009

The thread has been completely re-worked to reflect a new (but similar) combo that works MUCH better than the original. A new video has been added as well, one that should hopefully get the idea across better than the first one did.

Comments/Critiques welcome

Kaptain Kong · Feb 10, 2009

nice, the new vid looks good
you should post in chrome's thread about dash attack follow ups, he doesn't have this one...

AlphaZealot · Feb 10, 2009

This is not inescapable. For example, most good Diddy's know they can, at low percentages, nana lock the opponent to B-throw to another nana lock. However, this only works on fast fallers and at under 30% or so. After 30% the opponent can jump before even landing on the ground, preventing the nana lock from occurring again. This is the same principle at work here, following the throw at over 30-40% the opponent does not even need to touch the ground, they can instead jump before being in range of the dash attack.

That said, the video has inspired me to work the reverse grabs into my game because I know there are a ton of applications for this technique.

Ingulit · Feb 10, 2009

AlphaZealot said:
This is not inescapable. For example, most good Diddy's know they can, at low percentages, nana lock the opponent to B-throw to another nana lock. However, this only works on fast fallers and at under 30% or so. After 30% the opponent can jump before even landing on the ground, preventing the nana lock from occurring again. This is the same principle at work here, following the throw at over 30-40% the opponent does not even need to touch the ground, they can instead jump before being in range of the dash attack.

That said, the video has inspired me to work the reverse grabs into my game because I know there are a ton of applications for this technique.

I'll take your word on it not being inescapable; that's the soundest reasoning I've heard against it (I guess the people I play just don't know how to get out of it >_>). In their defense, if you are mixing this technique up with other Dash Attack follow-ups, they might not see this one coming and will fall for the grab (it's harder to see coming than the B-throw nana lock).

I'd like to reiterate that the best use I've found for this is to Reverse Boosted Pivot Grab after the opponent fully shields your dash attack and you end up on the other side. Against a lot of characters, you can catch them by surprise with this before they have the opportunity to do anything out of shield (again, I won't say all characters; Marth and Meta Knight obviously have very quick and deadly out-of-shield options they could counter with). I tend to use this the most in these situations, because it's hard to know in the heat of a match if your Dash Attack isn't going to send them very far.

Anyway, I'll edit the post to reflect that it isn't inescapable now.

CrAzYdRuNk · Feb 10, 2009

Well after my previous doubts on boost pivot grabbing with Diddy, I see how this works. The video sort of made me see it in a different light, this looks great!

ShockisBack · Feb 10, 2009

looks solid. ill implement this in matches against our friends soon.

~^.NoiR.^~ · Feb 10, 2009

AlphaZealot said:
This is not inescapable. For example, most good Diddy's know they can, at low percentages, nana lock the opponent to B-throw to another nana lock. However, this only works on fast fallers and at under 30% or so. After 30% the opponent can jump before even landing on the ground, preventing the nana lock from occurring again. This is the same principle at work here, following the throw at over 30-40% the opponent does not even need to touch the ground, they can instead jump before being in range of the dash attack.

That said, the video has inspired me to work the reverse grabs into my game because I know there are a ton of applications for this technique.

nana lock to the end of the stage and on the last nana run up and reverse grab. Inescapable I think.

Player-1 · Feb 10, 2009

Anyone know if you can boost pivot grab out of an Fthrow at times? Obviously it's inescapable, but other characters can do it with their grabs and it has pretty good mindgames in it.

Ingulit · Feb 10, 2009

Player-1 said:
Anyone know if you can boost pivot grab out of an Fthrow at times? Obviously it's inescapable, but other characters can do it with their grabs and it has pretty good mindgames in it.

I'll try it later and see if I can't chain it with this (I'll post a video if I'm successful; we really need a true Boosted Pivot Grab thread that's well-organized for this discussion). Also, I'm fairly certain the Nana Lock to Boosted Pivot Grab at the end of the stage would work as long as you get the grab out before they start to stand up; then you could chain it into a back throw off the stage and go from there, or throw them forward onto a banana or something. It's got the grab range to do it, that's for sure; I'm just not positive you can Boost Pivot Grab in the few frames before the opponent can react out of a trip. It takes a few more frames to Boost Pivot Grab than a normal Grab, but it would really mess with the opponent if you could mix the two up in a match.

~^.NoiR.^~ · Feb 10, 2009

Ingulit said:
I'll try it later and see if I can't chain it with this (I'll post a video if I'm successful; we really need a true Boosted Pivot Grab thread that's well-organized for this discussion). Also, I'm fairly certain the Nana Lock to Boosted Pivot Grab at the end of the stage would work as long as you get the grab out before they start to stand up; then you could chain it into a back throw off the stage and go from there, or throw them forward onto a banana or something. It's got the grab range to do it, that's for sure; I'm just not positive you can Boost Pivot Grab in the few frames before the opponent can react out of a trip. It takes a few more frames to Boost Pivot Grab than a normal Grab, but it would really mess with the opponent if you could mix the two up in a match.

I can do it to a computer. Haven't tried against humans since I barely ever play

N4N3RZ · Feb 10, 2009

Edit": Nvm

Ingulit · Feb 10, 2009

This works wonders when your opponent spot-dodges your Dash Attack, for you'll end up on the other side of them no matter what.

istudying · Feb 10, 2009

This looks nice but is it usefull?

Player-1 · Feb 10, 2009

Ingulit said:
I'll try it later and see if I can't chain it with this (I'll post a video if I'm successful; we really need a true Boosted Pivot Grab thread that's well-organized for this discussion). Also, I'm fairly certain the Nana Lock to Boosted Pivot Grab at the end of the stage would work as long as you get the grab out before they start to stand up; then you could chain it into a back throw off the stage and go from there, or throw them forward onto a banana or something. It's got the grab range to do it, that's for sure; I'm just not positive you can Boost Pivot Grab in the few frames before the opponent can react out of a trip. It takes a few more frames to Boost Pivot Grab than a normal Grab, but it would really mess with the opponent if you could mix the two up in a match.

I meant obviously it's escapble >.>. I've seen Samus players down throw to a pivot grab, Luigi players down throw to pivot grab, and same with MK, I'm sure I've seen others, but down throw one's are the only I can think of right now.

DFEAR · Feb 10, 2009

wow after watching new video i see it it looks great. but yea i only got it to work on my friend offline 2x :\ buts thats only because of low %'s. but hell great new follow up :3 i would like to use this now time to time instead of bair xD

SRTM · Feb 10, 2009

i cant do it

nice find though

TheEliteSmasher · Feb 10, 2009

sTOP MAKING HIS BANANAS SO BROKEN

Nefarious J · Feb 10, 2009

all yourz diddyz are trash!!!!

I know you agree so dont bother saying you dont!!!

Ingulit · Feb 10, 2009

TheEliteSmasher said:
sTOP MAKING HIS BANANAS SO BROKEN

I know, all these banana combos are starting to make Diddy OP. I just wanted to help

Player-1 · Feb 10, 2009

TheEliteSmasher said:
sTOP MAKING HIS BANANAS SO BROKEN

Make his bananas less broken

Nefarious J · Feb 10, 2009

all yourz diddyz are trash!!!!

I know you agree so dont bother saying you dont!!!

Kaptain Kong · Feb 10, 2009

Ingulit said:
I know, all these banana combos are starting to make Diddy OP. I just wanted to help

don't worry about it, they're just a spammer

Nefarious J · Feb 10, 2009

Nannerz are useless!!!!

Bombs **** nannerz!!!

Dash Attack > REVERSE Boosted Pivot Grab (With New Video!)

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