Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab taking another look at Speed's Sonic

Anthinus · Feb 11, 2009

Ahhhh.... Is that symbol!!! I got it now, I saw a stange thing without form but is just the Meta free symbol rotated... I guess I got my head so full of things that I couldn't recognize that at first glance.

Don't worry about Meta, when we find the Steak Emeralds we'll kick him from the ladder all the way down!

*runs away at Sonic speed*

JayBee · Feb 11, 2009

yeah i wanted to put a different spin on it.

while the first one said this sig was 100% meta free, the new one gives it a lil twist, and says this thread is 100% mach tornado free. steak.
i did the original "ban metaknight"picture, btw...

Camalange · Feb 11, 2009

I knew Kojin was the one who started the original pic. You had it much longer than OS.

And that new thread pic is freakin' steak dude...I'm in shock XD

JayBee · Feb 13, 2009

i dunno if this was discussed, but u can do ISDR on at least two parts of Delfino.

Speaking ISDR im practicing there to see if i can abuse ISDR into more seemless situations. like for example, off a ledgehop. or even as i am coming down from an attack, side b until i hit the floor. I'll post a vid of me practicing there so u can get an idea.

until later, can someone list all the places in the tourney usable levels where you can ISDR plz? thx.

Kinzer · Feb 13, 2009

Yoshi Isle Brawl and past, RC, Picto, and I believe that's all I know from the top of my head.

I think you can do it on the rock transformation on PSII, but I can't say for sure.

infomon · Feb 13, 2009

..... you mean iSDR, not ISDR >.<

i = invincible
I = instant

is the convention we're encouraging.

da K.I.D. · Feb 13, 2009

other way around fizzie

ive been calling instant spindash jump iSDJ ever since my KID AT thread. kojin has it right

Tenki · Feb 13, 2009

people have been calling instant dash attack IDA.

But it doesn't really matter because (i/I)SDR/SDJ/DA are all totally different moves, in terms of being instant and/or invincible, so capitalization for them doesn't matter.

infomon · Feb 13, 2009

KID, Tenki was using the i prefix for "invincible" in his side-B/down-B thread way before your AT thread....

sigh w/e, it's true they're distinguishable based on the move lol. All the more ways our acronyms are gonna confuse the heck out of ppl

Kinzer · Feb 13, 2009

I really should just type it out as insta/invinci-SDR, just so I don't get confused at myself...

JayBee · Feb 13, 2009

Kinzer said:
Yoshi Isle Brawl and past, RC, Picto, and I believe that's all I know from the top of my head.

I think you can do it on the rock transformation on PSII, but I can't say for sure.

there are two points you can ISDR on delfino
1: on the beach, from either slope.
2: on the orange platfrom withe the star in the middle.

where on reainbow cruise, btw?

infomon · Feb 13, 2009

Rainbow Cruise: I think both sides of the boat let you do it, as well as most slanted platforms you find, including the giant see-saw thing.

Anthinus · Feb 13, 2009

Kinzer said:
I really should just type it out as insta/invinci-SDR, just so I don't get confused at myself...

I'll do it that way too. BTW, what good uses can we got from insta-SDR? (and excuse my ignorace... a invici-SDR can be done? How? Share the steak...

).

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Feb 13, 2009

Sonic can crouch cancel his jabs!

Sorry if this is known but I thought I'd share it with everyone anyway

After some testing, I've noticed that Sonic can cancel is 2nd and 3rd jab by crouching - you know, the way that Ike does to get all his fancy grab stuff in

All you do is press A, then down as Sonic is reaching the ending animation of his 1st jab and then press A again. This allows Sonic to do 1st jabs in fairly quick succession - much faster than pressing A and timing it right

Is this helpful? Probably not. Although it might be if you get a jab lock going. I'm sure you guys will find some way of playing around with it

Kinzer · Feb 13, 2009

Apparently insta-SDR does not exist, it's already combined with Invinci-SDR, so there's really no point in abbreviating one or the other except we still get confused.

Simply put, just imagine a SDR where you maintain the transcedent priority through the whole roll, and the only thing that will clank (repeat, clank, you cannot be punished out of iSDR otherwise) are ground moves that deal 10% greater damage... and for that to happen, you need to roll into a charged smash attack... so regardless, you are safe in an iSDR.

Edit: I've seen it done, but I wasn't aware of how it's done.

Anthinus · Feb 13, 2009

Kinzer said:
Apparently insta-SDR does not exist, it's already combined with Invinci-SDR, so there's really no point in abbreviating one or the other except we still get confused.

LOL... iSDR then :laugh:

Simply put, just imagine a SDR where you maintain the transcedent priority through the whole roll, and the only thing that will clank (repeat, clank, you cannot be punished out of iSDR otherwise) are ground moves that deal 10% greater damage... and for that to happen, you need to roll into a charged smash attack... so regardless, you are safe in an iSDR.

Sounds good, thnx for the explanation!

Edit: I've seen it done, but I wasn't aware of how it's done.

I would like to know... Tenki where are you???

aeghrur · Feb 13, 2009

iSDR is something that's a must-exploit. Like Tenki said, it's a free approach.
And heck, we're sonic, that's a good thing.
Abuse the heck out of it on yoshi's like I do, lol.

Anthinus · Feb 13, 2009

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
Sorry if this is known but I thought I'd share it with everyone anyway

After some testing, I've noticed that Sonic can cancel is 2nd and 3rd jab by crouching - you know, the way that Ike does to get all his fancy grab stuff in

All you do is press A, then down as Sonic is reaching the ending animation of his 1st jab and then press A again. This allows Sonic to do 1st jabs in fairly quick succession - much faster than pressing A and timing it right

Is this helpful? Probably not. Although it might be if you get a jab lock going. I'm sure you guys will find some way of playing around with it

I have heard this before, but is good to remember it exists.

aeghrur said:
iSDR is something that's a must-exploit. Like Tenki said, it's a free approach.
And heck, we're sonic, that's a good thing.
Abuse the heck out of it on yoshi's like I do, lol.

Good advice, I'll keep it in mind (well, abusing maybe not...). I'll wait the Kojin's vid...

Jim Morrison · Feb 13, 2009

I so do this on Yoshi's Island all the time. It just always gets shield

aeghrur · Feb 13, 2009

Okay, maybe not abuse all the time, but it's a darn good approach against characters with projectiles.
It surprises them like, WUT???

JayBee · Feb 13, 2009

i dont see why not do it. its not broken. they can still dodge/block, and he can't beat everything even in this form.

Kinzer · Feb 13, 2009

There's no reason not to use it, there is none/minimal risk for what could be a small/medium reward.

Seriously iSDR is Godly.

Camalange · Feb 13, 2009

For any of you who are still confused (just in case)

iSDR (invincible Spindash Roll) looks like the DownB, but you're doing the SideB and you're invincible.

I like making it simple.

ISDJ (INSTANT Spindash JUMP) NOT (INVINCIBLE Spindash ROLL or INSTANT Spindash ROLL or INVINCIBLE Spindash JUMP)

kk

Anthinus · Feb 14, 2009

LOL, after Kinzer explanation I got it. But is good to simplify things (someone could enter here and get mindcrushed lol).

I was testing this in Yoshi Island and I'm begining to like this

. Is a little but a good adventage that can help a lot... Now, we have to find a way to not make it predictable (not telling your pals about Invincibility stuff dosen't count of course :chuckle:

), Maybe a SD pivot near the edge? What do you think guys?

Jim Morrison · Feb 14, 2009

I use this on Rainbow Cruise more than on YI. RC is too small for them to camp at the other side, making them approach, and giving me a totally safe punish move.

Anyway, Kojin, I think we need to discuss side-B jab lock. It's so easy to pull off if you're just a bit close.

infomon · Feb 14, 2009

Anthinus said:
Maybe a SD pivot near the edge?

I'm not sure what you mean by that.. but an iSDR loses its invincibility after a turnaround.

thecatinthehat · Feb 14, 2009

I have method to make it unpredictable.

It's hard to describe.

I'll try to get video up by tonight.

aeghrur · Feb 14, 2009

Does it happen to include spinshot?
I was thinking SDJ->iSDR if that's possible.

thecatinthehat · Feb 14, 2009

it involves the air.

So yes, it can be done out of spinshot or SDJ.

aeghrur · Feb 14, 2009

Ahmazing.
So much potential. (=<

JayBee · Feb 14, 2009

Yoshis Island:

As for unpreditctability, just use your head. i just incorperate the spindash mindgames near the edge, with the slope behind me so i can foxtrot into it. if u approach with it, i can SDJ and fall onto the slope with SD, and time the release so that the second i hit the slope, im off again. Ive also tried an edgegaurd idea where i run to one side, iSDR to the side they've been knocked off, and continue off. remember as long as i dont input anything, the roll is invincible the entire way, then when im close enough i can attack, and if they try to hit me away before then, im safe. also, even if you are off the stage, if you time it so that there is no hop when you side b back on the slope, you also get ISDR.

infzy, Anthinus Post is most likely referring to using a foxtrot towards the slope, the side B back the other way with ISDR. this is easy and it works.

Is Pirate Ship legal? because there are 5-6 instances where you can ISDR too.
- on the left edge of the little boat. also can air dash onto boat
- on the lever thingy
- when the tornado picks you up, the boat tilts enough for u to do it on the left side.
-when the boat crashes into the rocks
-there are two other places on the rocks that it can be done too.

I want to add that once my opponent was told about it, the scope of the battle changed. I never got camped on Yoshi's anymore. they got over aggressive near ledges. and i adjusted appropriately. I'm sure once i get used to this in my game this will get kinda broken, that's what i hope anyways.

?: can ISDR happen on lylat on the side the ship **** upaward?

I was gonna show a recording of some ideas, but then my USB died. it ****ing melted. what the hell?

so everyone lets take a day when u get on brawl to just look for ways to add this in your game.

Also, Ive noticed that when I approach, if I randomly tap B to SD before im in range, the opponent almost always makes a haphazard movement (attack, airdodge, spot dodge) and by the time they are done, they are caught in side B hop or roll. this may be a good way to make the side B jab lock, and the footstool combo more common.

so far, i think these are great counterpick satges if u know where u can ISDR. no one does it in tourneys, even the really good ones. this is sure to throw every one off, especially the ones who know they can outprioritize sonic.

discuss...

JayBee · Feb 14, 2009

smash training at kojins

If there are any smashers who want to just have some practice during this katsucon weekend, im nearby

u need to call me to get in. i especially would like some sonics in the area to hit me up so i can get some sawnik training for them and me.

PM me if you plan on coming. ill get u the number then.

Anthinus · Feb 14, 2009

infzy said:
I'm not sure what you mean by that.. but an iSDR loses its invincibility after a turnaround.

I know, I know...

JayBee said:
infzy, Anthinus Post is most likely referring to using a foxtrot towards the slope, the side B back the other way with ISDR. this is easy and it works.

That's what I meant... I sometimes don't explain my self in a good way

. I beg your patience guys

thecatinthehat said:
it involves the air.

So yes, it can be done out of spinshot or SDJ.

So good. I'll be waiting for the vid dude.

----------------
I'll keep testing on that stuff Kojin ... If I see something relevant I'll tell you guys.

JayBee · Feb 15, 2009

good, because i dont think i fully understand what CiTH is talking about atm.

thecatinthehat · Feb 15, 2009

lol yeah I'm not to good at describing things.

It's really simple too.

sigh.

I have family over right now, so I might not get any video up tonight.

Camalange · Feb 15, 2009

Hey JayBee, do you think you could analyze me next?

I don't have too many recent videos but I'm pretty sure you might be able to work with what you saw from CoT4?

If not, then that's okay. I'll just try to get stuff recorded of me the next time I attend a Smash event.

And I too, am looking forward to what CiTH is coming up with XD

JayBee · Feb 15, 2009

cool. im bored. lets do it. gee. i just remembered i have others to do too.

so, the cot4 vids of u are up? link plz?

ive been working on two things this weekend:

1: using dair spikes off the stage to edgegaurd
2: adding side B footstool jab locks to my KID cg setups as an early game mix up.

hopefully i can mindgame that situation. it makes the KID cg setups more diverse imo.

disucss.

Camalange · Feb 15, 2009

JayBee said:
cool. im bored. lets do it. gee. i just remembered i have others to do too.
so, the cot4 vids of u are up? link plz?

No, they didn't record my matches.

>_>

That's the problem...

Just do someone else in the meantime, I'll get vids recorded of me hopefully soon for you to analyze if you're up for it.

JayBee · Feb 15, 2009

fine. i will

edit: thought of another mindgame. jab> grounded footstool > dair.

Also, how come i dont see any sonics on brinstar?
you have 3 places you can ISDR, and two of those are the airdash.
ledgecamping is difficult due to the acid.
the blast lines help sonics' lack of killing moves.
when the main stage is broken, the gap has no ledge.

also, a few times when i airdashed a collided with the opponent, the teleport happened nearby where the opponent was kocked away, so i JC into a dair. steak.

. its possble to add combos to this air dash,and use it as an edgegaurd, so why not?

discus.

thecatinthehat · Feb 16, 2009

Gah, so I was playing, and now I'm not too sure if the method I posted really results in iSDR.

Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

Smash Journeyman

Smash Champion

ㅤ

Smash Champion

Mammy

Smash Scientist

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Scientist

Mammy

Smash Champion

Smash Scientist

Smash Journeyman

Smash Master

Mammy

Smash Journeyman

Smash Champion

Smash Journeyman

Smash Authority

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Mammy

ㅤ

Smash Journeyman

Smash Authority

Smash Scientist

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Journeyman

Smash Champion

Smash Master

ㅤ

Smash Champion

ㅤ

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Information

Network

Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab taking another look at Speed's Sonic