KoSa!'s DK matchups

itsthebigfoot · Mar 16, 2009

I'd play his mario, he's just across the country, which makes it rather hard.

If I go out there, i'll tell you, if you come out to socal, tell me

Cyphus · Mar 16, 2009

this is a complete, but quick list of all my matchup opinions.
We all share different experiences as DK mains. Some of us are are more experienced than others in certain matchups. I think referencing our experience to credited players of those characters is useful.
Personally, i don't see DK having any true advantage on any high tier- and in fact losing to almost all of them, losing to some mids, going even with some mids....
know what logic what say about that? He's lower-mid. Yup, i just went there.

MK: 65 ('nado and reverse UpB edgeguarding) (i have Lee, Dojo, etc exp in this matchup)

Snake: 60 (people seriously underestimate the power of CAMPING in brawl) (exp= razor, lee, ice, etc)

DDD: 80+. No point in listing credentials for opinion here. IMHO 80 might as well be 100 because its not winnable against a pro DDD who won't **** up.

G&W: 50 (i blame B.air, otherwise DK's advantage)

Falco: 65 (laz0r, chains, phantasm runaway) (some matches w/ sethlon)

ROB: 60 (edge camping ftl, don't get behind for one second) (Sudai aka gayest rob ever)

Marth: 50 (RoyR, Dphat, ect. I can humbly say i probably know the DK vs Marth matchup better than anyone. Its been the vast majority of my brawl experience, and i'm certain its even.

Wario: 60. set w/ PhantomX. Assuming he at least averages 50 damage from the chainthrow and DK has grab release KOs from 80-120%. But if Wario doesn't mess up any chainthrows + farting DK's recovery = bleh

Lucario: 50 (i'm probably the authority on DK vs lucario. Lee Martin is obviously a better player than me, but i almost always bring him to his last stock w/ 50+%. Lucario can combo the CRAP outta DK, DK can KO lucario at 100% which takes away some of his Aura's effectiveness, both are very dangerous versus each other when off stage.

Diddy: 65 (i dont even feel like talking about diddy. i hate him, but its 'winnable', with good games around and using bananas yourself, i guess.

Pika: 55? (pika's my true 2ndary, but lack IRL pika exp, but previous disucssion makes obvious sense.

Ice: 60 Dk is comparatively an easy target to grab, DK can Kill Nana easily, but DK's lack of safe approaches really hurts him.

Kirby: 50? I lack enough good kirby exp.

Pit: 55? I've played Kawn, and Esca but i'm not confident i have enough experience yet-but its obvious to me Arrows are super gay vs DK, and Pit's attacks have enough longevity to get around most of DK's dodges plus knockback so DK can't punish.

wolf: 50..mayber 45 to DK's adv.

toon: 60 caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamping >>>> DK (exp = Jerm, HyrulianRoyalty aka Hyro, and Lee)

olimar: 45? the only olimars i've played i've *****..but i can understand where people would disagree here.

fox: 40 lasers, uptilt combos and thats about it. DK makes up for it enough elsewhere.

zelda: 40. As long you don't rush her like an idio, DK should be able to control the pace.

zamus: 50. her B and forward B **** DK. she needs to run away to win, but DK can outlive her easily

bowser: 40
luigi: 40?
peach: 50 range and power vs safety and combos
ike: 40 i think still very winnable for ike
sheik: ??
lucas: 20 (or 40 w/out gay infinite to d.smash)
ness: 20
mario: 45 (bluejay, best mario in TX)
trainer: 40
samus: 40 (matches with xyro)
yoshi: 40 (matches with bwett and furbs)
sonic: 45 sonic is too fast and hit and run...
jigs: 35?
ganon: 35
link: 40
capt: 40

KoSa! · Mar 16, 2009

Bro lol didn't know. I thought you lived up here. It's just weird to explain this one. It isnt as easy as it sounds to DI away from his cape. And when you are recovering low and your only option is the edge then he can just camp it and wait for to cape. If recovering above and you get the landing lag flop thing then Mario can grab and throw off the stage and continue to gimp. If it does canceled, then congrats to the DK player you survived 1 out of the many more gimp attempts to come.

KoSa! · Mar 16, 2009

Cyphus said:
this is a complete, but quick list of all my matchup opinions.
We all share different experiences as DK mains. Some of us are are more experienced than others in certain matchups. I think referencing our experience to credited players of those characters is useful info is weighing the skill of our oponents (not that unknown names aren't amazing, but it doesn't hurt to list them either).
Anyway...here's what i personally got on DK, and its obvious as to why i think DK should be lowered even more on the Tier list.

MK: 65 ('nado and reverse UpB edgeguarding) (i have Lee, Dojo, etc exp in this matchup)

Snake: 60 (people seriously underestimate the power of CAMPING in brawl) (exp= razor, lee, ice, etc)

DDD: 80+. No point in listing credentials for opinion here. IMHO 80 might as well be 100 because its not winnable against a pro DDD who won't **** up.

G&W: 50 (i blame B.air, otherwise DK's advantage)

Falco: 65 (laz0r, chains, phantasm runaway) (some matches w/ sethlon)

ROB: 60 (edge camping ftl, don't get behind for one second) (Sudai aka gayest rob ever)

Marth: 50 (RoyR, Dphat, ect. I can humbly say i probably know the DK vs Marth matchup better than anyone. Its been the vast majority of my brawl experience, and i'm certain its even.

Wario: 60. Assuming he at least averages 50 damage from the chainthrow and DK has grab release KOs from 80-120%. But if Wario doesn't mess up any chainthrows + farting DK's recovery = bleh

Lucario: 50 (i'm probably the authority on DK vs lucario. Lee Martin is obviously a better player than me, but i almost always bring him to his last stock w/ 50+%. Lucario can combo the CRAP outta DK, DK can KO lucario at 100% which takes away some of his Aura's effectiveness, both are very dangerous versus each other when off stage.

Diddy: 65 (i dont even feel like talking about diddy. i hate him, but its 'winnable', with good games around and using bananas yourself, i guess.

Pika: 55? (pika's my true 2ndary, but lack IRL pika exp, but previous disucssion makes obvious sense.

Ice: 60 Dk is comparatively an easy target to grab, DK can Kill Nana easily, but DK's lack of safe approaches really hurts him.

Kirby: 50? I lack enough good kirby exp.

Pit: 55? I've played Kawn, and Esca but i'm not confident i have enough experience yet-but its obvious to me Arrows are super gay vs DK, and Pit's attacks have enough longevity to get around most of DK's dodges plus knockback so DK can't punish.

wolf: 50..mayber 45 to DK's adv.

toon: 60 caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamping >>>> DK

olimar: 45? the only olimars i've played i've *****..but i can understand where people would disagree here.

fox: 40 lasers, uptilt combos and thats about it. DK makes up for it enough elsewhere.

zelda: 40. As long you don't rush her like an idio, DK should be able to control the pace.

zamus: 50. her B and forward B **** DK. she needs to run away to win, but DK can outlive her easily

bowser: 40
luigi: 40?
peach: 50
ike: 40
sheik: ??
lucas: 30 (or 45 w/out grab release infinite/d.smash)
ness: 30?
mario: 45
trainer: 40
samus: 40 (matches with xyro)
yoshi: 40 (matches with bwett and furbs)
sonic: 45
jigs: 35?
ganon: 35
link: 40
capt: 40

I actually am going to listen to most of this because of the players you played. But the marth one has been the most flip flop matchup in like all of brawl. Some say Marth some say DK(usually the DK mains) and then the ones who play against alot of good marths say even. IDK about that one. And the Zelda one doesnt seem right to me.

Cyphus · Mar 16, 2009

the person whom i play the most (who only uses marth), who makes up about 30% my brawl time, has given me all the experience i need for spacing, DI, etc.

Theres more "tricks" marth has on DK:
f.throw-f.smash at 0, d.throw to forward B settups
abusing forward B in general, down to poke shield, pivot single forward Bs to interrupt DK and grab him when he lands since DK has no f.air retaliation.
Counter to intercept UpB recoveries, only to bait a stalling UpB to punish w/ B.air/edgehog, etc

DK has to have all his defensive options ready at all times:
space up angled f.tilts to swat SH f.airs, down B when u tricked him to stop approaching in the air, GiantPunch/UpB super armor, and b.air (AND upB) edgeguarding.

i beat RoyR in 3 very close friendlies. He admitted he didn't have enough experience vs DK to know his hitboxes well enough. I think he's a "better" player than me, but i just knew the matchup much better....Dphat couldn't get close to beating me, but i told him most of that above for Marth, and he instantly had me sweating, lol. If RoyR knew the matchup as well as i did, him being a better player, should be able to beat me most the time i honestly believe.

i think almost every numberically ranked matchup is at least flexible by 5- give or take. So if i would later find marth to be 55, his adv., i still call that a basically even matchup. (which i wouldn't be surprised to see)

daisho · Mar 16, 2009

KoSa! said:
Bro lol didn't know. I thought you lived up here. It's just weird to explain this one. It isnt as easy as it sounds to DI away from his cape. And when you are recovering low and your only option is the edge then he can just camp it and wait for to cape. If recovering above and you get the landing lag flop thing then Mario can grab and throw off the stage and continue to gimp. If it does canceled, then congrats to the DK player you survived 1 out of the many more gimp attempts to come.

So say you don't cancel the lag on the up b and he gets a throw in... is his throw in the new trajectory where you can't use your DJ to recover? Because with good DI unless you are at an insane percentage there is no reason why you need to use UP B after a throw (especially if you aim yourself in the middle of the stage).

Tx3Fate · Mar 16, 2009

lol @ mario being harder for DK than luigi. You must never have played a real luigi.

itsthebigfoot · Mar 16, 2009

Cyphus said:
the person whom i play the most (who only uses marth), who makes up about 30% my brawl time, has given me all the experience i need for spacing, DI, etc.

Theres more "tricks" marth has on DK:
f.throw-f.smash at 0, d.throw to forward B settups
abusing forward B in general, down to poke shield, pivot single forward Bs to interrupt DK and grab him when he lands since DK has no f.air retaliation.
Counter to intercept UpB recoveries, only to bait a stalling UpB to punish w/ B.air/edgehog, etc

DK has to have all his defensive options ready at all times:
space up angled f.tilts to swat SH f.airs, down B when u tricked him to stop approaching in the air, GiantPunch/UpB super armor, and b.air (AND upB) edgeguarding.

i beat RoyR in 3 very close friendlies. He admitted he didn't have enough experience vs DK to know his hitboxes well enough. I think he's a "better" player than me, but i just knew the matchup much better....Dphat couldn't get close to beating me, but i told him most of that above for Marth, and he instantly had me sweating, lol. If RoyR knew the matchup as well as i did, him being a better player, should be able to beat me most the time i honestly believe.

i think almost every numberically ranked matchup is at least flexible by 5- give or take. So if i would later find marth to be 55, his adv., i still call that a basically even matchup. (which i wouldn't be surprised to see)

the fthrow to fsmash can also be fthrow-fthrow - tipper fsmash at zero. I play bardull and mikehaze pretty frequently, mike thinks dk is one of marths worst matchups, bardull thinks its about even. these are two of the best marths out there, dk has at least a slight edge. to quote one of the better local marths "I do twice as much and still lose" dk has an edge

KoSa! · Mar 16, 2009

Tx3Fate said:
lol @ mario being harder for DK than luigi. You must never have played a real luigi.

My friend mains Luigi...
What does Luigi have????

Jab to upb?

You have to suck hard to get caught with that multiple times.

Approach?

Luigi cant approach at all, UpB, tilt his fireballs.

Recovery?

I have to say easiest recovery to gimp. And once he gets on the edge space Dtilts and it limits almost all of his options. Except roll and you can grab and cargo if you want.

Really explain your reasoning and maybe I will give it some thought.

daisho · Mar 16, 2009

No experience at all, but isnt marios recover worse in every way shape and form than luigis?

KoSa! · Mar 17, 2009

daisho said:
No experience at all, but isnt marios recover worse in every way shape and form than luigis?

I hate when people say luigi has a good recover. It does have the distance, it can go vertical and horizontal. But it can be intercepted with ease and easily gimped. Luigi kinda always has to recover to the edge, so shoguarding is easy.

itsthebigfoot · Mar 17, 2009

luigi does not have to recover to the ledge, nado straight up and float down works just as good, he can also cover gimps with fireballs, play a better luigi

Cyphus · Mar 17, 2009

we're not saying luigi sucks. We're saying Mario may give DK a slight harder difficulty.

Mario's fireballs are much more effective, he can approach much safer, he can combo DK just fine and he's arguably better at shield pressure and shield poking with his d.air.
If DK shields Lu's sex d.air, he can SH-UpAir Luigi before he gets his sex kick out. (random helpful info)

plus mario is very good at gimping DK's recovery. Not to sound like an ***, but i'd say many of ya'll probably haven't fought a good mario either.

KoSa! · Mar 17, 2009

Cyphus said:
we're not saying luigi sucks. We're saying Mario may give DK a slight harder difficulty.

Mario's fireballs are much more effective, he can approach much safer, he can combo DK just fine and he's arguably better at shield pressure and shield poking with his d.air.
If DK shields Lu's sex d.air, he can SH-UpAir Luigi before he gets his sex kick out. (random helpful info)

plus mario is very good at gimping DK's recovery. Not to sound like an ***, but i'd say many of ya'll probably haven't fought a good mario either.

Thank you!

I never said Luigi sucked, I want someone to really say something about the DK vs Luigi matchup and compare in to the DK vs Mario. Mario is obviously the better one in this match. You guys need to play better marios

The only thing I might say is that Mario might not be a 60:40 but he is 55:45. I mean I find mario to be as annoying as Diddy.

daisho · Mar 17, 2009

KoSa! said:
I hate when people say luigi has a good recover. It does have the distance, it can go vertical and horizontal. But it can be intercepted with ease and easily gimped. Luigi kinda always has to recover to the edge, so shoguarding is easy.

I NEVER said that luigi had a good recovery.

You said luigi is the easiest to gimp. I said that Mario's recovery is worse so how can luigis be the easiest to gimp.

KoSa! · Mar 17, 2009

daisho said:
I NEVER said that luigi had a good recovery.

You said luigi is the easiest to gimp. I said that Mario's recovery is worse so how can luigis be the easiest to gimp.

LOL i know but Im saying I hate when someone says luigi has a good recover. Not meaning it to you.

F_T_S · Mar 22, 2009

itsthebigfoot said:
the fthrow to fsmash can also be fthrow-fthrow - tipper fsmash at zero.

marths f-throw-fthrow- tipper....Second f-throw can be footstooled (>b after if you want)

once you kno the marth matchup well it really doesnt give you too much difficulty.

reasons for the 40:60 matchup against wolf? (favor 4 DK)

Chis · Mar 22, 2009

How's Marth and Sonic 60:40 and Link 70:30.

KoSa! · Mar 22, 2009

Because DK can destroy link, his recovery makes gimping easy. DK has longer reach except on his Zair. Projectiles arent a big problem with SA grounded upB, or PS.

KoSa! · Mar 22, 2009

F_T_S said:
marths f-throw-fthrow- tipper....Second f-throw can be footstooled (>b after if you want)

once you kno the marth matchup well it really doesnt give you too much difficulty.

reasons for the 40:60 matchup against wolf? (favor 4 DK)

DK has the range, killpower, and weight to stay in the fight. His Bair and laser can be beatable with PS. Bair can beat his aerials. Dsmash if fresh is a reliable kill move. I never really fall for Fsmashes, and if you shield it you can punish it. DK can gimp Wolf easily. Walk of Dthrow setups perfectly for ledge upBs.

Chis · Mar 22, 2009

And Sonic is 40:60 because?

KoSa! · Mar 22, 2009

The Marth matchup is harder than the sonic one yeah. But the Sonic one isnt an unwinnable one for Sonic. Its not a 30:70 IMO.

itsthebigfoot · Mar 22, 2009

F_T_S said:
marths f-throw-fthrow- tipper....Second f-throw can be footstooled (>b after if you want)

once you kno the marth matchup well it really doesnt give you too much difficulty.

reasons for the 40:60 matchup against wolf? (favor 4 DK)

wolfs laser is incredibly easy to power shield, our bair > his bair (our ftilt beats it too), and he has problems koing our fat monkey, whereas he dies at reasonable %. what really tips this matchup is the gimps though, wolf is likely to be gimped, dk isn't

Chis said:
How's Marth and Sonic 60:40 and Link 70:30.

marth does not like people who out space him, that's why mk, snake, ddd, rob and dk are his worst matchups (the best spacing characters). also, you have to do half the work to ko him

if you think sonic isn't at a disadvantage then you haven't played the matchup.

for link, for all his camping and tricks, one upb in and there goes half to all of his stock.

Chis · Mar 22, 2009

Well why don't you tell me about the match up? ^^

KoSa! · Mar 22, 2009

Its a hard match for him. He gets spaced out has nothing to KO DK.

itsthebigfoot · Mar 22, 2009

dk out ranges him big time, doesn't get kod till very late and has a massive priority advantage on him

KoSa! · Mar 22, 2009

itsthebigfoot said:
dk out ranges him big time, doesn't get kod till very late and has a massive priority advantage on him

It might actually be 30:70. I thought it was extreme but...

da K.I.D. · Mar 22, 2009

but since everyone knows that sonic speed is only good for running head first into his opponents attacks. and that sonics 1 kill move doesnt kill until well into the two hundreds

itsthebigfoot · Mar 22, 2009

^ you mean the one ko move that doesn't take forever to come out? since 13 frames is your quickest good ko move, and even then that doesn't ko dk until 150 fresh, which is around as fast as our usmash, which kos sonic in the 70s fresh?

or are you talking about the one that is as fast as our punch with half the range, no SA, that doesn't ko until 130 fresh (without air brakes or remarkable DI)?

also, dk's dtilt is definitely not safe on block and whiff and can't be spammed while you run away (which is actually all sonics speed is good for). allowing us to wait until you eventually approach since you get outspaced and have to get in to do damage.

but that's just silly, dk is just a stereotypical slow character that doesn't do anything, I should know, i beat my little brothers dk all the time, and can destroy the comp dk (all the way up to level 7!). clearly sonic has the advantage, he has TEH BLAZING SPEED!!!!1!111!!!!!! which makes it physically impossible for any and all attacks to hit him and allows him to do whatever he wants instantly

TheHulk · Mar 22, 2009

loloololololololol

F_T_S · Mar 22, 2009

itsthebigfoot said:
clearly sonic has the advantage, he has TEH BLAZING SPEED!!!!1!111!!!!!! which makes it physically impossible for any and all attacks to hit him and allows him to do whatever he wants instantly

sonic boards in a nutshell.

wolf gives me a hell of alot of trouble....ftilt beats out his bair!? this i havent bothered to try, but wouldn't it rely heavily on timing and prediction...a wolf could easily bait and punish

dsmash near the edge ( a place i find myself often in this matchup) can kill even our heavy backside early.

40:60 is a little too big in my opinion (not by much, still in DKs favour)...in the end it comes down to bair wars...even though we have an awesome bair imo theirs is just as awesome, wolf pseudo wop can put alot of pressure on you and your shield (rolling away is the best option...)
sure cargo throw = easy gimp but its quite difficult to get a grab if the wolf isnt ******** a decides to nair/fsmash into your shield.

more i think about it 60:40 doesnt sound too bad, but i rekon 55:45 suits it better

Ragnar0k · Mar 23, 2009

up b>wolf.

F_T_S · Mar 23, 2009

yeh i mentioned that but i think i edited out....up b > many things

KoSa! · Mar 23, 2009

itsthebigfoot said:
^ you mean the one ko move that doesn't take forever to come out? since 13 frames is your quickest good ko move, and even then that doesn't ko dk until 150 fresh, which is around as fast as our usmash, which kos sonic in the 70s fresh?

or are you talking about the one that is as fast as our punch with half the range, no SA, that doesn't ko until 130 fresh (without air brakes or remarkable DI)?

also, dk's dtilt is definitely not safe on block and whiff and can't be spammed while you run away (which is actually all sonics speed is good for). allowing us to wait until you eventually approach since you get outspaced and have to get in to do damage.

but that's just silly, dk is just a stereotypical slow character that doesn't do anything, I should know, i beat my little brothers dk all the time, and can destroy the comp dk (all the way up to level 7!). clearly sonic has the advantage, he has TEH BLAZING SPEED!!!!1!111!!!!!! which makes it physically impossible for any and all attacks to hit him and allows him to do whatever he wants instantly

What he said...

basilioyugi · Mar 23, 2009

metaknight is 90 -10 in metaknight favor if the mk spams the tornado and if he spams the nado when u have no jumps left ur bg

Ragnar0k · Mar 23, 2009

yeah the DK m2k matchup is bad if m2k spams the tornado smartly.

Veggi · Mar 23, 2009

MK likes it when you smack him out of his tornado.

Oh yeah I need some advice, ftilt usually works on MK mains, but there's this one guy I play with who starts his tornado above my up angled ftilt and it annoys me a lot. Anyone have a solution? Thanks in advance.

Gea · Mar 23, 2009

If you see him start it back up a bit, shield right when he gets close (angle your shield up if you have to), and grab him/tilt him as it ends.

Veggi · Mar 23, 2009

Against MK's tornado I have to angle it up. I heard down smash could be used to punish a tornado every time, do you know if that works? I tried it and I think either I was "too slow" or it was because of lagfi. I'll try more ftilting because I havn't been able to get up tilt to work much.

Thanks.

daisho · Mar 23, 2009

basilioyugi said:
metaknight is 90 -10 in metaknight favor if the mk spams the tornado and if he spams the nado when u have no jumps left ur bg

Dude what are you saying 90-10??? even if he spams tornado you can still kill him at like 60%. If you have a punch charged up he cant use the tornado anyway or he will get hit by the punch which does 29% which is about 1/2-1/3 of his stock.

And to your no jumps comment... if metaknight has no jumps and is in special fall while falling off the stage then he will die...

Veggi said:
Against MK's tornado I have to angle it up. I heard down smash could be used to punish a tornado every time, do you know if that works? I tried it and I think either I was "too slow" or it was because of lagfi. I'll try more ftilting because I havn't been able to get up tilt to work much.

Thanks.

SA punch will always work.

Utilt facing backwards can also work, ive tried it once and it worked so idk...

You basically have to understand the physics of the tornado... it has a shield around MK and if you hit any part of it where his actual body isn't then he won't get knocked out of it, but if you hit his body then he will get hit out of it.

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