Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

metashinryu · Apr 13, 2009

di uthrows back or i errm he will bit your arse, di down and tech behind him,the knee is your doom just accept it XD

Desh · Apr 13, 2009

not really
knee isnt that bad if you can di XD
well, its still bad, but i'd rather get kneed , then slapped O_o

metashinryu · Apr 13, 2009

also we hate the cape-up+b=stock exploit it,use it,abuse it -_-

Vulcan55 · Apr 13, 2009

Deff said:
How do you DI against captain? I mean, I understand DI but when it comes to captain I get comboed for dayssss, and I know I can somewhat prevent some of it, do I DI up and away or down and away? I hope I'm not being confusing.

DI away, then tech roll towards. Total mind ****. Free grabs.

Kasumi · Apr 13, 2009

Man. I leave for half a day and there's three new pages of Doc discussion. Good stuff.

First to address this:

Deff said:
Nice post there, yeah i'm sure your right since my memory on that subject is a little faded

do you have a team mate for spoc? dual docs? I'll do it if my team mate doesn't come.

I think I'm teaming with Vex, but I haven't heard anything from him in a while. I'll PM him. He may have found someone else. If so, I'll team with you. Though dual docs almost sounds like a recipe for disaster, heh.

Now on to the stuff I promised you all. Frames for the cape. First, here's four gifs. I only embedded one of them, because the filesizes are kind of big. Fastest to slowest:

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8724/doccapeslow2.gif

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2079/doccapeslow3.gif

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4438/doccapeslow4z.gif

Red Spheres are the parts that will flip someone's direction. The green sphere is what will reflect projectiles if they touch it.

And for those that just want the frames, best I could do is a megaupload zip. I was gonna do rapidshare, but they only let it be downloaded 10 times.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=WNP9MXP4

If anyone thinks these gifs/frames are too small, let me know. The original photos are 3504 by 2336, so I can make them anything smaller than that. Fun fact: The first time I uploaded four of these gifs, I realized they were playing backwards. The SECOND time I uploaded them, I realized they didn't loop. I hope they're correct now...

On a side note, I figured out why the other frame data topic doesn't have these. When you turn off the background, all the hitboxes disappear when the cape animation is playing. So I just took them over FD's mostly black background with only the percent icons turned off, instead of the whole stage.

elvenarrow3000 · Apr 13, 2009

!!

Kasumi, you're my new favorite person. I'll have to see if I can figure out the hitbox system well enough to put those frames into it.

Also, what's up with Sheik's fair? I can't ever get like any DI on that thing T_T

Dogysamich · Apr 13, 2009

Welp, i outta close this thread cause Kasumi just won.

****in awesome.

Strong Badam · Apr 13, 2009

kasumi may i bear your children

elvenarrow3000 · Apr 13, 2009

I can't stop staring at that gif. That hitbox is HUGE.

I wonder how big Mario's is.

That sounds pretty bad out of context.

Vulcan55 · Apr 13, 2009

Holy d*cks.

Dogysamich · Apr 13, 2009

seriously, dont make me do work.
(dont censor dodge)

I really cant act like I dont see it.

Kasumi · Apr 13, 2009

Elvenarrow3000: If they need to be in a specific resolution for that hitbox thing, let me know. I could do Mario's cape but it's not high on my list of things to do.

Everyone else: Glad to give back. Probably going back to lurk mode now.

otg · Apr 14, 2009

****, that cape hitbox is intense.

Dogysamich · Apr 14, 2009

Kasumi said:
Elvenarrow3000: If they need to be in a specific resolution for that hitbox thing, let me know. I could do Mario's cape but it's not high on my list of things to do.

if it's not too much trouble, i am kinda curious how big doc's is compared to marios, and what doc's looks like on the ground (because it's kinda hard to just look at that and see how far down it covers.)

If it's alot of work, then i'll just continue to **** around and find out myself. I'm only being a bum cause i dont have AR.

Strong Badam · Apr 14, 2009

i need to record some vids of my doc, so you guys can tell me what im doing wrong. :D
i also agree with dogy in the fact that a grounded cape hitbox vid would be very helpful

Dogysamich · Apr 14, 2009

I can give you my classic doc advice.

"Well I can safely say that the first mistake you made was dropping your icon on Doc. I'm pretty sure there's a better choice."

___

And yeah, Kasumi. Before we all start sounding ungrateful for what you did; it's not that what you did wasnt awesome or anything, it's just that I'm pretty sure that we're all thinking "How far down does that thing actually reach past the ledge?" Cause that ****ing hitbox looks riDOUNKulous!

LumpyCPU... · Apr 14, 2009

who's HomemadeWaffles?

Strong Badam · Apr 14, 2009

some noob.
also just something to add, the hitbox on the cape could very well be different on the ground than it is in the air. this is true for some other special attacks, as well, like some char's up-b's.

Dogysamich · Apr 14, 2009

i'm pretty sure it's not difference, i just would like to reference it to the ground as opposed to Doc's height (or lack of)

Desh · Apr 14, 2009

i archived that *****.
sexyneesssss. D:

ranmaru · Apr 14, 2009

I love that cape. :]

Desh · Apr 14, 2009

wow im so glad i never go to the doc boards lol
usercp alll daaaii.

i had to go to the actual thing to go to the info thinger.
and i see a thread called "what doc oufit do you wear"
O_O;

ranmaru · Apr 14, 2009

I use Usercp all dai too. ;p

Sadly I miss new topics because of it though.

Ok, now I think I need help with Doc team help. and I mean Doc with any character. Just what he needs to do and stuff.

Desh · Apr 14, 2009

he needs to get gimps,
not get gimped.
Save your partner when you can. (pills, up b , uair. Idk, get creative.)
Punish missed rests. (Who the hell else is gonna do it besides mario or fox>_>)
Save your partner when he/she miss a rest.
abuse grabs when you can.(jesus christ, double doc vs double fox ****...synchronized cg's LOL. that would be so win.)

and not die.
oh and use pills WELL.
and dont miss fairs when they count D:

Kasumi · Apr 14, 2009

There is no difference (that I can see) between Doc's grounded cape hitbox and the aerial one. The only reason I did it in the air was so there wouldn't be a floor in the picture. (The floor makes it so you can't see how low down the cape's hitboxes get) If there IS a difference it must be a VERY small hitbox change, because the animations are definitely the same length, and sure do look the same to me.

Now then, here are the requests I'm filling provided the camera settings are still right. If not you guys get may nothing, because that was the hard part. :dizzy:

1. Mario's Cape. (Just did a quick runthrough of it without photos. Same number of frames, and the same things happen on the same frames. The only difference are his red hitboxes. They come out on the same three frames, but he trades in Doc's HUGE vertical coverage for some slight horizontal coverage. There is NO comparison. Doc has superior range.)

2. Mario's and Doc's Cape at the same exact time. (No one requested it, but I'm doing it anyway)

3. Donkey Kong's aerial up-B. (I'll PM the guy that wants this, so as not to clog up the Doc boards.)

End Note: I never realized there were so many holes in Seanson's completed characters. Now I'm sort of filling them with a TV and a digital camera instead of a good capture card. Note that I'm never going to do frames for whole movesets, especially for characters I don't play, since my setup currently sucks. Knowing that, If anyone lurking the Doc boards wants a move for another character that is NOT already in Seanson's frame data, PM me by the end of the day.

otg · Apr 14, 2009

Doc in teams:
- protect your team
- DI really well so you live forever
- spam lots of pills
- camp the ledge and edgeguard like a *****
- make sure your teammate doesn't get *****
- counter/protect jiggly.
- spam Dsmash/fair/bair and ftilt.
- doesn't matter who your teammate is, but I like Falcon/Sheik/Fox/Jiggly/Ganon.

ranmaru · Apr 14, 2009

Thanks for the teams advice guys. Man if only I could play you guys.

SpruceTengu · Apr 14, 2009

otg said:
Doc in teams:
- protect your team
- DI really well so you live forever
- spam lots of pills
- camp the ledge and edgeguard like a *****
- make sure your teammate doesn't get *****
- counter/protect jiggly.
- spam Dsmash/fair/bair and ftilt.
- doesn't matter who your teammate is, but I like Falcon/Sheik/Fox/Jiggly/Ganon.

OTG's pretty much hitting the nail on the head as far as I see it. I'm going to emphasize his point about the gimpage--i've really found it to be doc's best contribution to a team, and also the most controllable. Yeah, spam your killnasty attacks like dsmash and fair, but practice getting mad surgical with them first; I've seem Fairs go horribly wrong in the past. Pillspam is great, also as OTG says. More specifically, try spamming in ways that will benefit your partner; for example, if they're trying to work on someone low to the ground, you can try FJ pills going over them from behind to provide a bit of a buffer zone without getting so close that you screw their game up, hit them, or get yourself hit by them.

Oh, another thing. When you get a grab, use it to set up for something. I've been pretty impressed with doc's grab--> throw to teammate shenanigans. This can be really nasty with any of the characters OT is reccommending. (Uthrow/Fthrow to Knee? >.<')

otg · Apr 14, 2009

Oh I forgot one thing, jump out and use your UPB to help out teammates who will just BARELY miss the ledge. Your UPB is a priority wall for the most part, and by saving your partner he will most likely be able to get your back as you land, thus making the recovery tactic very useful (more so than pills or anything).

Also, with Pill spam, use caution because you can seriuosly **** up your teammate if they caught with them. I like throwing them if my teammate and I have someone boxed in between us, but this only happens in 2v1 situations, and when you've knocked off your opponents teammate and he is recovering/dead. So I dunno, pill spam with caution.

Also, if you are going to spam your KO moves, it shoudl be Dsmash. **** is fast, hits behind you and is an amazing "EVERYONE GET THE F*CK out" move. Fair is good against aerial opponents and in 2v1 situations, and Fsmash is nice if your teammate gets a grab and you happen to be next time him to punish.

Kasumi · Apr 14, 2009

Same format as before. Four gifs, fastest to slowest and then a megaupload zip of the individual frames. I also apologize in advance for the quality of these. It's much more clear they're being taken from a TV.

First, the main attraction. Doc's cape vs. Mario's Cape:

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3889/docandmarcapeslow2.gif

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1664/docandmarcapeslow3.gif

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8899/docandmarcapeslow4.gif

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9MVZUCEH

Note how Mario's cape range can't touch Doc's cape range. Note how Doc's cape's recovery has nothing on Mario's cape's recovery. As it turns out, the grounded cape animation IS different, but it does not affect gameplay. It just shows some crazy attention to detail. The last two frames change depending on if you're in the air or on the ground. If you're in the air, the animation ends with Mario's hands up. On the ground his hands are down.

Next up, Mario's Cape:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8233/mariocapeslow2.gif

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2084/mariocapeslow3.gif

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4282/mariocapeslow4.gif

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2O178TWY

Edit: OTG, your teammate should try for a ledge tech if you use your UpB to help, right? I'd be kind of afraid of stage spiking my teammate if I used my upB to hit them off stage.

Dogysamich · Apr 14, 2009

.... HMMMMMMMMMM

So, unless im looking at this wrong (which is possible), it's not true that mario's cape is LONGER than docs, the thing is just that doc's has a low, mid, and high hitbox (The great wall of hitbox).

That's some interesting ****.

Thank yo so much!

Kasumi · Apr 14, 2009

It's a useful amount longer in front. And it's small bit longer in the back. As far as up and down though, Doc hits everywhere Mario does and SO MUCH more.

Edit: Looking at it closer, Mario does have some extra and useful range in front. It's still not a LOT better, though. Post reworded.

metashinryu · Apr 14, 2009

Dogysamich said:
.... HMMMMMMMMMM

So, unless im looking at this wrong (which is possible), it's not true that mario's cape is LONGER than docs, the thing is just that doc's has a low, mid, and high hitbox (The great wall of hitbox).

That's some interesting ****.

Thank yo so much!

see? i told ya docs cape is hella longer but you didnt catch it,even on his smash trophy says so

otg · Apr 14, 2009

Kasumi good looks on the frame comparison. Very interesting to see. Now in regards to using UpB to help someone recover, first of all, I might not have stated what I meant clearly. The only way it will stage spike is if Doc is below his opponent and they are somewhere between his fist and the ledge.

A good example of what I'm talking about is, your teammate is Fox and they are UpBing towards the stage, but alas one of your opponents is grabbing the ledge and you can tell Fox will just barely miss it, be it above the stage or into the ledge. Well, jump out to him right before his upB ends and use the UpB to pop him up. Think about it, 90% of the time your upB hits someone while you are recovering you pop them up instead of stage spiking them, you need to be at a certain angle to SS them.

Regardless, while your team mate should anticipate a tech, the way I'm trying to describe this wouldn't really make that a problem. This can be used for anyone who's recovery tends to be more vertical than horizontal and as a result their upB would leave them screwed if they get edgehogged.

But regardless, Doc should focus on keeping his teammate alive on as long as possible with his great crowd control and projectile.

metashinryu · Apr 14, 2009

also that little wind thing that docs caping do doesnt help his recovery

Dogysamich · Apr 14, 2009

Doc in teams.
*laughs sarcastically*
Ah, how the world spins round. For anybody who isnt up on their history (which I dont blame anybody), Doc in teams was the original purpose of this thread almost a year ago. Funny how things go around.

___

Anyway, Doc in teams.

I really want to say stuff on it, but i realistically dont have alot to add about Doc in teams specifically cause my idealogy of it goes more into just playing teams in general.

Where most people say you want to camp ledges (or to have a tendancy to), i really think that shouldnt happen too much and you should focus more on your teammate.

Because if you hang out by a ledge, what can happen (and happens often) is a situation like this

A_1________B_2 (Letters vs Numbers).
Now, if you were to be around the ledge, you'd be either A or 2. And if you get your opponent off in a timely manner, edgeguard him, and dont die; you're fine. But when most people look at that setup, they see two 1v1s.

I see 2 2v1s. At any given time B could stop what he's doing and go help his partner, and 1 could do the same. The likely hood of it being successful depends on how fast 1 or B can drop what their doing and get over to the other side.

As doc, you can cover any distance relatively quickly through way of a couple of wavedashes. If you're the kind of person who does alot of wavedashes back anyway, it's not going to be blatently obvious when you go to help anyway.

[/rant]In short, that makes you very capible of helping your teammate at the drop of a dime.

Another thing people do is stand behind their partner when they could clearly go around them or stand above them to cut out options of approach (read: stand on a platform)

~~~~~~~~

*rolls eyes* (This is the kinda thing i'd rather show/tell somebody rather than type on a forum)

Just to save some time, Doc is a ridiculously good assist trophy. Like, you can do ok hangin out by yourself, but you can help ANYBODY so **** much just by being around time. Doc's mobile enough and fast enough to where he can get around and get stuff done. Great for edgeguarding, but not exactly the greatest for getting people off the stage.

I still hold true that doc isnt outstanding in teams, and there are better characters overall for what he does (save the obvious fox), but doc does have some good perks for being in teams.

___

........ i might type some more about this later, but this is the first time i feel like im actually talking in circles instead of the normal long winded rant that explains something.

elvenarrow3000 · Apr 15, 2009

****, and I had just settle on sticking with Mario too =(

Dogysamich · Apr 15, 2009

If you wanna play mario, go for it. Like I keep saying, it's really preference.

Realisitcally, I have an easier time arguing that "mario is better than doc" than I do "doc being better than mario". Really comes down to what you want.

doublejoint · Apr 15, 2009

oh god

this helps me so fcuking much!

thanks kasumi!

_____

am i the only doc here who hates mario?

elvenarrow3000 · Apr 15, 2009

I dunno, I like Mario's walljump... and fsmash... and I feel a little better that his aerials have like one frame less lag. I would swear his ftilt goes farther too.

But Doc's cape gives him a pretty good edgeguard option, so I'm torn =(

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