bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
So? All that matters is the game wouldn't be ruined, as you said. It'd merely be more reliant on random factors.
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Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
Oooh, new argument!
He Breaks The Counterpick System:
And this is important because? It's BENT in a SINGLE AREA. Oh, and let's define Counter Pick. To counter someone's choice of character, right? So this means that everybody's a counterpick! Some far better than others, but still. Since many of us consider Snake vs MK, or Wario vs MK to be even, or slightly advantageous in MK's favor, why not use THEM as counterpicks? Think about it. Anyone who goes even (or near even) can clearly be picked against the opponent's choice of character. In fact, on most boards, 45:55 is still listed as even! Another thing, let's bring mathematics into this. 1.59 to 1.6. Why do we round if the numbers are so different? Oh, wait, they're NOT. Oh, and as for matchup guides, we cannot clearly measure matchups through numbers like that. How do we know that Snake has a better advantage over MK than Kirby when they're BOTH 45:55? In fact, numbers themselves are stupid, for reasons I won't go into now. The point is that Snake vs MK is NOT Snake's worst match. And if he can beat other worse matchups, then what's the problem between Snake and MK? In this sense, MK clearly doesn't break the counterpick system. He doesn't need a hard counter, he just needs a counter, and he has one, even without mirror matches factored in.
Keep 'em coming.
He Breaks The Counterpick System:
And this is important because? It's BENT in a SINGLE AREA. Oh, and let's define Counter Pick. To counter someone's choice of character, right? So this means that everybody's a counterpick! Some far better than others, but still. Since many of us consider Snake vs MK, or Wario vs MK to be even, or slightly advantageous in MK's favor, why not use THEM as counterpicks? Think about it. Anyone who goes even (or near even) can clearly be picked against the opponent's choice of character. In fact, on most boards, 45:55 is still listed as even! Another thing, let's bring mathematics into this. 1.59 to 1.6. Why do we round if the numbers are so different? Oh, wait, they're NOT. Oh, and as for matchup guides, we cannot clearly measure matchups through numbers like that. How do we know that Snake has a better advantage over MK than Kirby when they're BOTH 45:55? In fact, numbers themselves are stupid, for reasons I won't go into now. The point is that Snake vs MK is NOT Snake's worst match. And if he can beat other worse matchups, then what's the problem between Snake and MK? In this sense, MK clearly doesn't break the counterpick system. He doesn't need a hard counter, he just needs a counter, and he has one, even without mirror matches factored in.
Keep 'em coming.
Uh-huh. This makes me think that you CAN'T refute my ACTUAL ARGUMENT. This sorta thing doesn't fly with the Proving Grounds, the Debate Hall, or with me. Your argument is void.
yummynbeefy
Smash Champion
he really should be banned
but i know its probably not going to happen
but i know its probably not going to happen
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
Would you mind telling us what your actual argument is, then? Because it seems pretty clear to me that he disproved it.
Ah, my apologies. It would be rude for me not to refute your argument. Especially as it is directed at me.
This would ruin the game for most of the community. I mean, they've lived with Meta-Knight this long, but they don't care about items except in random fun. It wouldn't ruin Brawl itself, however it would ruin the competitive community.
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
So you're saying that you weren't, in fact, arguing that increasing diversity is not a justifiable reason to ban a character?
Because from where I'm sitting, it sure looks like you saying:
Which is what I disproved. But then again, I'm apparently not debating up to your standards, so I'm probably just reading it wrong, and when you said:
Because from where I'm sitting, it sure looks like you saying:
implies that you don't think diversity is a reason to ban a character.
Which is what I disproved. But then again, I'm apparently not debating up to your standards, so I'm probably just reading it wrong, and when you said:
you actually meant:
In which case, I apologize for the confusion, and you're totally correct. As long as it's not carrot cake. Cheese cake for top tier, though.
Dantarion
Smash Champion
Who is MK's counter?
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
According to joker, Snake or anyone else having a 45:55 disadvantage makes them an MK counter.
My, my, does no one know how to properly debate?
*sigh*
What he said is tangent from my argument. He mentioned my opening statement and claimed that he disproved it. My argument was what followed. If I just said my opening statement, it could easily be countered. If you said "MK breaks the counterpick system" without arguing WHY, it wouldn't matter much, now would it? I gave reasons as to WHY diversity isn't a reason and he ignored it completely. How can you attack an opening statement? It's like, "Gentlemen, the economy will be fixed." and then somebody goes off on a tangent, without listening to the person's reasoning behind that argument.
Another color of MK.
No, a near even battle. Think about it. 45:55 cannot possibly describe the matchup.
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
If you say "The sun won't rise tomorrow morning" and then go off for 15 minutes with all these random, mostly irrelevant reasons as to why the sun won't rise tomorrow, in order to disprove your main argument I don't have to disprove all your petty little tangents.
All I have to do is prove the sun will rise tomorrow, and I've automatically rendered all your reasons irrelevant.
All I have to do is prove the sun will rise tomorrow, and I've automatically rendered all your reasons irrelevant.
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
Oh, okay, then. I'll quote your post here to try and divulge your real point, then:
Okay, well first, you argue that diversity isn't a reason to ban because you can do something different instead of playing the game. Then you proceed to argue that other games, which have more diversity, would laugh at you for attempting to get one of their characters banned... and this is, somehow, an argument toward diversity not being a reason to ban something. You then add that Metaknight would still be popular if he had a hard counter, which obviously correlates to diversity not being a reason to ban a character.
Yeah, I don't think you actually argued anything relevant there.
How honestly sad. If I had reasons as to why the sun wouldn't rise, then your counter to my opening statement could not disprove anything.
Oh, and again, a counterpick is generally a character who is the BEST at countering a character. With player skill factored in, this could be a 50:50 matchup, or in other words even. Near even, or the closest thing to even can cut the chances sharper. If Wario is the nearest thing to even, possibly 49:51, then that makes him a counter. The best in the game at refuting or supressing the greatness of another character's abilities.
Sephiroths Masamune
Shocodoro Blagshidect
People who are confused of the Match ups lets make it clear for you. there is no even match ups for MK just himsellf so dont post things like this although wario is close this dosent make it an exception
Dantarion
Smash Champion
RK Joker, I believe that a character has no counter if the true best counter is himself.
Yes, you could pick wario/snake whoever, but the fact is that you are pretty much at a disadvantage no matter what you do unless you pick MK. No character has an advantage, and its debatable if any characters even go even.
While every other character has a true counter that flat-out has an advantage, MK has.....MK.
Yes, you could pick wario/snake whoever, but the fact is that you are pretty much at a disadvantage no matter what you do unless you pick MK. No character has an advantage, and its debatable if any characters even go even.
While every other character has a true counter that flat-out has an advantage, MK has.....MK.
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
55:45 MK vs yoshi.
any questions? xD
any questions? xD
Absolutely. Saying Snake and Wario are counters is completely untrue.
We use intervals of '5' to make the threads look pretty. No 49:51, kthx. Skill means nothing in a ratio, it's comparing the tools that each character has against each other, so don't factor skill into this.
I don't want my buddys to talk like that :
"-Hey, who do you main ?
-MK and you ?
-Yeah MK too, we could ditto then =]
-Cool, oh and who do you second btw ?
-Wario, what about you ?
-Wario, cool now we can do cool ditto for hours straight ! Woot !"
srsly.
"-Hey, who do you main ?
-MK and you ?
-Yeah MK too, we could ditto then =]
-Cool, oh and who do you second btw ?
-Wario, what about you ?
-Wario, cool now we can do cool ditto for hours straight ! Woot !"
srsly.
You use some pretty big words for someone who i can only assume is about 14...
I'm not even going to attempt to argue with you because you are full of bullroar.
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
I'm not sure if you're intentionally dodging the actual argument because you have no response, or if you're just dumb.
Here's a hypothetical opening statement for you:
"Carrots are green."
I go on to list several reasons for this, including:
-The nutrients and proteins found in a carrot are most likely to produce a green colour.
-Most vegetables are green, and a carrot is a vegetable. Therefore, it is most likely to be green.
-The part of the carrot that sticks out of the ground is green, therefore the edible part is most likely green as well.
In order to disprove my main argument, being that carrots are green, you don't have to disprove every stupid thing I say. All you have to do is hold up a ****ing carrot.
Bam. All my arguments rendered completely moot, and you didn't even reference them at all.
Be careful, he's 15. A rambunctious little debater, that Joker.
At least you tried and I luv you for it. <3
The astounding amount of Meta-Knights is only natural. Even if Meta-Knight had hard counters, he'd still be prominent simply because he is the best in the game.
Can we ban a race because they're too prominent in the area that they dominate? Nope. What do normal people do when something gets bland? They mix it up, but they don't leave the bland thing completely behind. Certain places, for example, are known for certain things. We go there to see what they have to offer, then eventually come back. Lack of diversity is not a problem. It doesn't ruin the game, nor does it make the game uncompetitive. In fact, the constant thought as to how to beat MK pushes the community to become more competitive, or just switch to MK. Lack of diversity can never be a reason to ban anything, in life, or in games. In fact, most games follow the same premise. Do we get bored of Halo, and other FPS's simply because their environments are always dark? It's only natural for people to switch to the character that is the best. In fact, this argument of lack of diversity makes the normally stupid "Domino Effect" seem feasible. People obsessed with tiers will choose the next best, and the cycle will never end, until mistakes are corrected. Diversity, or lack thereof is never a reason to ban anything.
Another thing, I just noticed. Awesome, why would you bring up another fighting game community that would deny that this game is competitive, and mock this community as an example? Honestly, you didn't even give me evidence that they banned him because of lack of diversity. On top of that, you didn't give me ANY statistics whatsoever about exactly how much of the community was using Akuma. Honestly.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
If you want to say that Snake would be the next most overly used character look at who counters Snake: Rob and DDD, those would be popular choices in the match up. Falco counters DDD who is countered by marth and G&W. You then have a whole cycle of viable characters that will fight for the top.
Sephiroths Masamune
Shocodoro Blagshidect
sorry i bolded that part of your sentence but that is exactly what we are trying to prevent is that the only way to be a competitive brawler is to swich to MK WTF are you thinking?
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
Phantom pages.
This debate is getting off...
This debate is getting off...
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
I'm gonna let someone with more tolerance than me handle this post because I don't need an infraction for flaming.
It's a lost cause, neither proban or antiban will really change their true opinions.
It's really not worth arguing, but it sure does kill some time.
@bobson - You're a Mario main. You're supposed to be hot-tempered. I could understand if it was me, but I expect you to flame in the future.
It's really not worth arguing, but it sure does kill some time.
@bobson - You're a Mario main. You're supposed to be hot-tempered. I could understand if it was me, but I expect you to flame in the future.
1,000 Apologies
@bobson - You're a Mario main. You're supposed to be hot-tempered. I could understand if it was me, but I expect you to flame in the future.
That made me lol, haha
That's mean. I'm actually giving evidence here and backing up my points. Unless I am proven wrong (after which I will concede, I assure you) then I am not full of "bullroar".
"RK Joker, I believe that a character has no counter if the true best counter is himself.
Yes, you could pick wario/snake whoever, but the fact is that you are pretty much at a disadvantage no matter what you do unless you pick MK. No character has an advantage, and its debatable if any characters even go even.
While every other character has a true counter that flat-out has an advantage, MK has.....MK."
Very nice, I must say. I'm going to have to think about this one if you don't mind. I'm just saying he doesn't BREAK the counterpick system, just bends it a bit. After all, they are very close to even, no?
@Straked: I personally prefer accuracy over beauty, so long as I can read it ^_~ Another thing, the non-accuracy is also a reason why many people disagree on matchup numbers. For example, the 65:35 MK on the MK boards, and 60:40 MK from the Lucario boards. Also the fact that skill isn't factored in. To refute this point, I post: Azen. While for MOST Lucarios, the MK matchup is 60:40, Azen has showed that for him it's at least 45:55.
Awesome. The point that you brought up is absolutely worthless. "Carrots are green." yeah, what? Your post was an OPINION based on ANOTHER GAME, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM BRAWL and its community.
DrakeRowan
Just call me "Rowan"
Trying to prove a point by relating real life to video games is not a feasible arguement.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
I just want this poll to end, and for Mk to be banned.
Debating here is idiotic. You can't prove a point because no one believes that you have the credibility, and there is always a troll somewhere. Then the fact that this thread gets updated with a new post every few seconds. Most people don't know how to prove a point or give a citation.
I gave my whole argument about 20-50 pages back. I'm sick of having no one accept it and post it again.
Mk should be banned. My reason: In terms of brawl, his meta game contains a collective list of small, but game changing things that cannot be shut down. Thus making him what is to be.. a broken character.
Good bye.
What? I said OR. Come on, now. Oh, and I believe that as a negative part of the sentence. You know, like "People then try harder, or they give up"?
"I'm gonna let someone with more tolerance than me handle this post because I don't need an infraction for flaming."
Uh-huh. So you're pissed off at me because I respectfully disagree with you and I am attempting to respectfully debate what you said. Nice.
Nothing is impossible to stop against MK, as he has near-even matchups.
Oh, and please don't get mad. Just repost that argument if you can find it and let me read it.
Sephiroths Masamune
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Do you even Know what your saying some time? 45:55 is close but not even and that is what we are trying to say ban him because no one is even to him and dont tell us the CP system isn't broken. if no one can counter pick a charecter than it is broken!
pure_awesome
Smash Lord
Guys, just ignore him. Whether he's a troll or just immature, he's obviously not going to listen to reason.
I did respond to that. I said that whether or not you were right and he was broken, it's not reflecting in the tourney results. If he was so broken that he needed to be banned, he would be dominating way more than he is now. You never responded, so I had assumed you had missed it. Your argument was what launched my whole tangent on whether or not we can ban a character just because the majority feels like it, rather than it being actually necessary.
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