How to Deal with Specific Moves - Move 4 - Diddy's Nanners

Good idea for a thread. For a list of *more* possible moves, feel free to look at the character matchup synopses I wrote, and pull from the "DI Guide"; which is only partially correclty labeled, as the intent of it was a lot like this thread. I'll probably go through and edit the title to reflect its attention accordingly. But, to save yourself some time, I'll list a few that I have in the synopses:

GaW B-air
GaW N-air
MK Tornado
MK Drill Rush
MK F-, B-airs
Snake N-air
Snake D-air
Marth Dancing Blade
Marth F-air Chain
Diddy F-smash
Diddy Banana
DK Ground Slap
DK B-air WoP
TL B-air WoP
Kirby D-air (offstage)
DDD chaingrab (essentially, things to do to make it harder, someone mentioned it in the DDD matchup thread. I know a frame-perfect CG is nigh impossible to break, but I'd like to know my options if it ISN'T frame perfect)





Anyway, there are four different ways to get hit by tornado.
1)On the ground on start-up (starting it in your grill)
2)On the ground from farther away (where he just basically slams into you)
3)In the air on start-up (basically starting it in your grill)
4)In the air from farther away; catching you as you fall/where he just slams into you.

It may seem trivial to point this out, but to me it seems that the DI pattern you follow is "different" based on if you get hit with it on startup, or if you get pulled into it (from him slamming into you)


Reason being:
Regardless of whether you are in the air, or on the ground, the initial hit of the tornado (if its done right on you) pops you up just slightly. The second hit of the tornado pops you up even more, and the subsequent hits pull you in. Since MK generally rises (if even for a small amount) the bottom of the tornado catches up with you, and it pulls you down into it- kind of like ROB & Pikachu's D-smashes.

Now, if you get caught in it AFTER it has started up, either on the ground or the air, the tornado works similarly, but not identical. You still get popped up, but not necc. with the first two hits. That is to say, you may be pulled in, hit, hit, popped up, hit hit, popped up again.

It seems to me (and this is just theory... essentially, trying to look at this from a different perspective) that it works like a moving, airborne ROB or Pika D-smash. So, could we try SDIing UP as opposed to left/right, or maybe UP to get to the top of the tornado and then up & left/right depending on which way the "top" of the tornado hits us/what side we are on (as the tornado is designed, and the MK player will be moving in order to keep you in the center,) with the left/right should be opposite of whichever way he is going? Again... just a thought.

I'd like for someone to test this out, as I don't have a "partner" with which to test this out with atm.


Edit: I did what little testing I could by using my big toe to hit "B" as MK and tap it as best I could, while controlling ROB. Totally suffered like... 3-5 hits for 5% damage. Note: I jumped once I got to the top of the tornado after SDI'ing it. I couldnt continually tap B, or make MK move (i mean... i was using my big toe...) but... at least in THIS situation, the theory works.

Edit again: I tested this some more on wi-fi, and it works really good there as well, even with the button delay. The catch is, is to get hit with the start-up of the tornado, where you suffer the "small bounce" hit followed by the "large bounce". Whether you are in the air, or on the ground, I got out of it (even with the MK trailing me) suffering only 3-5% damage. Also, using your jump at the end of it to space yourself farther from the tornado is essential. If you don't have your jump, you can do it with up+B as well. As far as I know, I couldn't get this to work with getting caught in the tornado AFTER it had started up, unless from below. That is to say, I can jump into it from above and get out this way, but I can't "jump into" it from the side and get out by that way.

I can manage not to get caught in one while im on the ground- either through tilting my shield, F-smash, Gyro, or laser. Its when I'm in the air, and they start it up in the air in close proximity to me. If I get hit in the start-up, its not a big deal. SDI out, 5% damage... BUT, I'm in the air, which is bad, but manageable as I've gotten out of it and probably managed to claim some sort of aerial "degensive" position by the time they've stopped it.

Its always the ones that get started up slightly away from me, but still close- usually during an aerial or after an airdodge (like... I'll airdodge a U-air or F-air, they'll either tornado directly out of the whiff or jump again an tornado). If that's the case, I probably don't have a gyro handy, and the SDI'ing upwards doesn't work. Im more or less stuck in it for the long haul PLUS being popped into the air afterward.

Ok. So, I did some more testing. A lot more, actually. And, here's what I've come up with. Before I get into it all, let me explain my rationale.

I recorded myself using the tornado in 4 different ways on a motionless CPU (or one that I controlled just long enough to get the footage) and watched in 1/4 speed on a video editor for almost an hour. A little of this is going to be a repost of my previous post, but its crucial to understand some of it to follow it all.

The tornado on start-up is comprised of two hits. The first is a small hit which raises ROB slightly off the ground, and the second one pops him farther up, and into the center of the tornado at the base. From there, ROB is tossed around in a "standing" position (I use the term loosely, for comparative purposes) for a few hits, and then is hit with a stronger hit (in terms of knockback, not damage) which puts him into a "tumble" position (again, for illustrative/comparative purposes).


Bearing that in mind, the four ways I used the tornado were as follows:

1) MK and ROB on the ground/air, right next to eachother. Start the Tornado.
2) MK using the tornado the left/right of ROB and "slamming into" ROB (to skip the start-up hits)
3) MK using the tornado above ROB (skipping start-up hits)
4) MK using the tornado below ROB (skipping start-up hits)

By looking closely at how the tornado worked, I realized it wasn't terribly unlike an actual tornado. In a real tornado, all the damage takes place on the "walls" of the tornado, whereas the inside is (relatively) calm due to the fact that the winds rotate around the center. In essence, there is a comparative "safe zone". Of course, this "safe zone" narrows as you move from the top of the tornado to its base.

Applying that to MKs tornado explains some things as well. First, it explains why smaller characters have an easier time escaping it than larger ones. They occupy less space, and therefore are able to "fit" into the safe zone better, and can therefore be more liberal (in terms of precision) with their DI. Larger characters have a harder time for the same reason. They occupy more space, so the amount of "safe zone" available to them is smaller. Therefore, they have to be tighter (in terms of precision) with their DI, if indeed it has any effect at all. It isn't that ROB is a large character, but rather he is oddly shaped, and because of that shape he occupies more "safe zone" space. Think of it in terms of "if one part gets caught in it (the tornado), it pulls the rest into it". ROB is more rectangular in shape, and while not overly large, is still large-which gives him more "random points" than most characters that can get "caught" in the tornado.

Anyway... moving on. Theoretically, you can destroy a tornado by having a strong charge from the inside. This results in outward pressure from the inside center than is exerted on the outside whirling winds, which causes them to "break apart".

The same is true with MK's tornado. By using an attack directly above the tornado, you are more or less dropping a "charge" (the hitbox) into the center of the tornado, whose knockback/launch potential/whatever is greater than the priority on the outside. The result, MKs tornado gets wrecked. As far as attacks like F-smash, or the gyro, or the laser... the only thing I can think of is that they pass THROUGH the outerportion with enough priority (think about how a laser goes through everything, how even a half-charged gyro goes through all sorts of attacks, and the fact that F-smash is disjointed), and disrupt its center, causing it to "fall apart"

(I know in the above example with laser/gyro f-smash... that the two are almost... incomparable as real tornados operate under physical rules, whereas a tornado in the game operates of arbitrarily implented ones... but, I'm using it as a comparison for purpose of explanation)

After realizing the similarities between the two... I started to think even more. If there is indeed a "safe zone", then we should try to position ROB into that safezone as soon as, and for as long as possible. Therefore, we have to DI into the "safe-zone" first, and then OUT of the tornado.

If the tornado is started so that ROB gets hit with the two hits on start-up, do not instantly DI. Instead, DI the second, stronger hit UP so that you move from the narrower "safe zone" at the base, to the wider "safe zone" at the top using the subsequent hits to help propel you upward if you flubbed the initial DI. From there, you can jump out. (Which supports Hugs' technique of up+Bing the last hit)

If the tornado hits from the sides, DI *INTO* the tornado either by DI'ing left, or right, or a combination of the two depending on what the MK player is doing. This supports the "DI left/right" theory that is kind of popular, but also has been thought to be "hit or miss" in terms of consistency. Essentially, sometimes the MK is moving laterally, sometimes he isn't, and sometimes the movements are more extreme than others... all of which throw off the DI.

At any rate, DI'ing INTO the tornado will put you briefly into the safe zone, and from there you can DI up/in once you come into contact with the inner portion of the "wall" of wind.. (Theoretically, you could DI left/right with one stick, and up with the other to do it at the same time (haven't really given this much testing)). However, its important to note that the "stronger" hits which knock you into that aforementioned tumbling animation are the most effective to DI bc they create a "launch" for you.

Again, depending on what action the MK is taking, you DI differently but with the same goal. Get toward the center "safe zone" and up/out of it.

1) If the MK is simply going up and not moving laterally, if hit with the left side of the tornado DI right, and then up (and vice versa if hit from the opposite side). Jump, double jump, or up+B out of it so that you rise OUT of the tornado before MK can catch up to you.

2) Hit from the left, MK moving left: DI right (to get inside & to safe zone), left (to get back into the safezone if you hit the opposite side of the tornado) and up. (and vice versa)
3) Hit from left, MK moving right: Right (to get inside the tornado), right+up (right to move with MK and stay in the safezone, and up to get out) & vice cersa.
4) Hit from either side, moving back and forth: DI into the tornado, and then WITH the MK and up (I think that's right...)

Anyway... feel free to test this out on your own. Ive done what little testing I could, and its worked pretty well thus far. You take less damage, don't suffer the last hit's knockback which pops you up, and even though you still are above MK, you are in "control" of yourself.


Edit: Of course I agree with the majority that the best situation is to not be hit with the tornado at all; either by perfect spacing/zoning, or disrupting it with F-smashes, perfectly spaced N-, B-, D-airs, gyros, lasers, pivot grabs, etc... but, its nice to develop some sort of contingency plan for when there are gaps in said spacin/zoning which lead to us getting caught up in it.

Also, Im not sure if this is 100% accurate... but in theory it holds up. I just need someone to test it with me, or (ideally) someone with better overall DI skills than mine (who still understands the theory behind it) to test it out in person.

It would be interesting to know the "cutoff" point between "close to you" and "too far away" is, as sometimes I sort of feel that he started it up almost on me (maybe bc of the steps Marth takes) and wasn't able to DI to the back of him, and other times I thought he was far enough away, and wasnt able to DI it back due to the steps. Im sure a lot of this is my lack of paying close attention, but some sort of visual cue would help us all DI it much more consistently.

Also, can't you D-smash btwn the hits? Im wanting to say in Aerow's vid in teh FAQ thread, the nailed a few D-smashes between the hits.