• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

Should Metaknight be banned?


  • Total voters
    2,309
Status
Not open for further replies.

AvaricePanda

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,664
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
lolwut thread has completely degenerated.

A couple pages ago, people had to send PMs to each other who actually had good arguments, and funnily everyone ignores that and just makes ignorant 2 sentence statements. Also, lol at people who aren't Mang0 and M2K arguing about how good Mang0 and M2K are.

I'm going to make a huge *** post about how MK shouldn't be banned after I come back from school.
 

Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,019
Location
San Diego, CA
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
People can be so stupid.

How many times must I repeat myself? MK is NOT broken. Whoever still says he is doesn't know the definition of broken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Stillnotelf/Tiers_(video_games)

First place I saw that explain what "broken" was. If you're all too lazy to look for another source, then deal with this link. Learn what a "tier list" is, what a "broken" character is, and what a "top tier" character is.

MK falls under Top Tier. COmpare the definition of "Broken" with other banned characters, or other characters that were considered broken, plus add in their "broken combos", and you'll see why we keep saying MK is not broken.

Now, if IDC would be allowed with purposes of stalling, THEN he would be broken. The last thing we need is people gaining % advantages then going invisible forever... BUT since this is NOT the case and IDC has been banned, MK has lost the one trait that made him "broken". Right now, what's happening with the majority of the Brawl community, is they're all whiners, sore losers, and can't accept the fact that it's time to change their strategies.

Whoever said "being aggressive against MK will earn you gimps/losses" is right. If you keep on rushing or camping, you'll find yourself losing all the time. MK is a rushing-type character, and his speed makes it so that once he's in, he's not getting out... Depending on what characters you use, and/or what decisions you make. An MK inside Samus' camping space is too dangerous, just like a DK inside DDD's grab range. THERE ARE CHARACTERS THAT CAN DO BETTER, much like there are characters tat can do better against DDD! Choose Kirby/Olimar against DDD, and choose Kirby/Wario/whatever you feel better with against MK.
 

Jigglymaster

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
5,577
Location
Northwest NJ
NNID
Dapuffster
I think Mk should be banned. Its not because we can't beat him or hes impossible. People have proved that he can be beaten and can still get top placings with other characters.

What the real problem is, is that were tired of MK always getting first.

I don't think M2k has yet to lose a Brawl Singles Tournament as MK.

Mk needs to be banned because its geting rather boring watching the same character win over and over again.
 

MajinSweet

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
295
Location
New York
I think Mk should be banned. Its not because we can't beat him or hes impossible. People have proved that he can be beaten and can still get top placings with other characters.

What the real problem is, is that were tired of MK always getting first.

I don't think M2k has yet to lose a Brawl Singles Tournament as MK.

Mk needs to be banned because its geting rather boring watching the same character win over and over again.
Welcome to competitive fighters!

Ok, mods can you please lock this thread? This topic is going no where.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,654
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
the game should NOT have to come down to counterpicks

certain things like falco vs DDD (falco vs a LOT of chars) or DDD vs DK/Bowser are just unfair and the metagame evolving like that is the worst thing that could happen
This to me is the most important argument why a Meta Knight ban would be BAD for the community. I so wish to explore this more, but people tend to ignore this point.

Mew2King, why shouldn't the game come down to counterpicks? As in, if you're a DK main, why wouldn't you counterpick D3 with... Pikachu? for instance. Why is this bad for the development of the metagame?

Meta Knight has significant advantage over most of the cast. Players like yourself and Dojo are only losing to other meta knights (matches/sets/etc) as time goes on. Games between Snakes and top MKs are lasting most of the timer because there's no go between for either character in terms of approaching (DSF vs Dojo, Ally vs you). This is the direction the metagame is going -> "You can't beat Meta's aggression, best camp it up hard core". Because there is no other counterpick... Is this a good thing? Is this a bad thing? Why?

If Meta Knight had a 40:60 match up in this game, and D3 had the advantage on this character, would you stay MK if you lost the first match? Would you not counter pick?
 

Mampam

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
943
Location
Florida
whats the point of feeling good about winning a tourney with another character, when u know its
just cuz there was no mk???
 

PK-ow!

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,890
Location
Canada, ON
whats the point of feeling good about winning a tourney with another character, when u know its
just cuz there was no mk???
What's the point of winning a martial arts competition, when you know it's just cuz no one was allowed to bring a sword?

You're begging the question.
 

Jigglymaster

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
5,577
Location
Northwest NJ
NNID
Dapuffster
Welcome to competitive fighters!

Ok, mods can you please lock this thread? This topic is going no where.
I've been here for 4 years, don't tell me I'm new to this.

At least in melee Fox wasn't the only character to win tournies. M2k ins't unstoppable in melee cause Mango has beaten M2k with a different character.

As of right now, M2k is the King of Brawl. Lets say that MK was banned a couple months ago and he went to another character. Do you think he would be winning every single tournament like he is now?

Not trying to be mean to m2k or anything, I've met him and hes really funny and a good guy. We've been buddies since 05.
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
NinjaLink has beaten M2K with a different character. (Diddy)
Reflex has almost beaten M2K with a different character (Wario) and beaten him in friendlies with a different character (Pokemon Trainer).

etc.
 

gallax

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
5,641
Location
Orlando(UCF), Fl
the game should NOT have to come down to counterpicks

certain things like falco vs DDD (falco vs a LOT of chars) or DDD vs DK/Bowser are just unfair and the metagame evolving like that is the worst thing that could happen
m2k, i understand your reasoning. someone shouldnt have to CP if they love to play as a certain char AND smash competitively AND want to do well in tournaments. the falco vs DDD is a great example. a DDD player shouldn't have to switch because a hardcore counter shows up due to a random matchup or someone CP'ing falco. but that is also one reason why i belive smash more interesting. seeing someone have the courage to play against their CP. it may not be in the spirit of winning, but it is in the spirit of making smash more interesting.

i wanna make an example out of CO 18. he is an awesome smasher and does super well in tournaments with DDD. if he plays a falco he can still win. why is this? b/c he knows how to play falco as a DDD main. even though falco has such an advantage on some of the cast for having a great CG, he still isn't winning tournaments because he lacks in other areas of his game. MK doesn't lack anything. his weight isn't even an issue imo.

the CP system was developed to make the tournament matches fair. people are gonna do whatever it takes to win, even if it means switching who they use in the middle of a match set. the CP system is designed to make the tournament matches more fair. if you dont like the CP system then you should argue to change the CP system.

i understand this thought though that you shouldnt have to switch chars if you want to win a tournament set just because your character is playing someone who they are at a disadvantage. i really do. i want to point out though, that MK does this very thing to a lot of the cast. there are plenty of characters(emphasis on plenty) who are at such a disadvantage against MK that choosing them to play a MK would be stupid. MK isnt the only to do this though. pika does this to fox. the matchup is terribly difficult for fox. fox will almost always lose against a good pika player. having a CP is necessary for some chars. it gives some players a chance at winning.

now most people will say learn the matchup and stop qq'ing. i want to point out something. i am a part of the pika community. me and a bunch of serious pika players have gotten together and through all our our hard work, pika has now become a serious MK counter. we have stopped complaining and worked our ***** off to learn the matchup through and through, and look at the results.

the matchup is still in MK's favor, but its become obvious that pika is a potential counter MK. now that being said, i still hate seeing a MK main cuz i know the matchup is very tough, even for a counter! it is so tedious that any mistake that i make(playing pika) will probably result in my death or very close to it. this shows, imho, that MK breaks our CP system. if a counter is still at a disadvantage, then its not really a counter at all. that would means that pika is countered by more than half the cast which isnt true.

now im not saying that MK is unbeatable. i have beaten KM's in tournies. it is not an unwinnable match. i just think that you saying that MK should be kept available because you shouldnt have to worry about bad matchups and putting yourself in a bad position by playing your main no matter what is a very selfish argument. basically you want to keep MK because you dont want to have to work harder to win a match due to a bad matchup or have to learn to use another character.

AND after reading your post, i realized that what you said shows how even you believe that MK BREAKS the CP system by never having to switch due to no bad matchups.


*NOTE* i still voted no for banning MK
 

Nic64

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 6, 2003
Messages
1,725
As of right now, M2k is the King of Brawl. Lets say that MK was banned a couple months ago and he went to another character. Do you think he would be winning every single tournament like he is now?
True, but then, aside from dojo no other meta knight's are really a threat to him either, not seeing the relevance and I think it's absurd that one player not losing is being blamed on the character. If it were the character, the other high level players that main him should find themselves in a similar position.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
NinjaLink has beaten M2K with a different character. (Diddy)
Reflex has almost beaten M2K with a different character (Wario) and beaten him in friendlies with a different character (Pokemon Trainer).

etc.
I find it amusing you chose two players that want MK banned for your example.
 

Jigglymaster

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
5,577
Location
Northwest NJ
NNID
Dapuffster
True, but then, aside from dojo no other meta knight's are really a threat to him either, not seeing the relevance and I think it's absurd that one player not losing is being blamed on the character. If it were the character, the other high level players that main him should find themselves in a similar position.
No other player has ever won as much as M2k has. And M2k uses the best character in the game.

Thats why I established the question if Mk were banned a few months ago would M2k still be constintly winning every single tournament with a differen't character?
 

MajinSweet

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
295
Location
New York
No other player has ever won as much as M2k has. And M2k uses the best character in the game.

Thats why I established the question if Mk were banned a few months ago would M2k still be constintly winning every single tournament with a differen't character?
Yep, just like he was in Melee with Marth, a character that shares the top tier with 3 other characters. M2K is just a really good player, good players win tournaments. Right now Mango can beat practically anyone in Melee with Jigglypuff, are we supposed to start thinking "Man, Jigglypuff is broken!"

I've been here for 4 years, don't tell me I'm new to this.
Here? I wasn't talking about Smashboards.
At least in melee Fox wasn't the only character to win tournies. M2k ins't unstoppable in melee cause Mango has beaten M2k with a different character.
Yeah, but Marth was the only one to win big tournaments until just recently. If your not narrowing down the example to big tournaments, then MetaKnight is far from the only character that can win. You would be crazy to suggest that Snake, Falco, Marth, Dedede are not viable. M2K isn't unstoppable in Brawl either, NinjaLink beat him with Diddy--so whats your point?
 

OFY

Sonic main since 08'
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
1,090
Location
Debug Menu
No other player has ever won as much as M2k has. And M2k uses the best character in the game.

Thats why I established the question if Mk were banned a few months ago would M2k still be constintly winning every single tournament with a differen't character?
He won FAST 1 with mostly D3.

M2K doesn't need MK to win, he just uses him cause the game would be really boring with all camping.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
lol why do i even bother posting to the brawl community

shoulda known better

ill stop now
Why?
You cannot disdain the brawl community for lacking the same knowledge if you are choosing not to share it.

Not everyone has alot of competitive experience or understand what goes on at high level play.
Why get angry at people who most likely will not reach that level and so cannot understand?
 

MajinSweet

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
295
Location
New York
Why?
You cannot disdain the brawl community for lacking the same knowledge if you are choosing not to share it.

Not everyone has alot of competitive experience or understand what goes on at high level play.
Why get angry at people who most likely will not reach that level and so cannot understand?
Because those people shoot there mouth off and think they know what there talking about. A incompetent person is less likely to realize a lack of understanding in his or her logic. It can be very frustrating arguing with these people, as they will be very sure of there (wrong) information.

Example: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-4-intuition.html

Study: http://sirlingames.squarespace.com/storage/outside_articles/unskilled_and_unaware.pdf
 

Angel.M <3 C:

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 23, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
imouto island
No other player has ever won as much as M2k has. And M2k uses the best character in the game.

Thats why I established the question if Mk were banned a few months ago would M2k still be constintly winning every single tournament with a differen't character?

lolwut? M2k was dominating the community with DEDEDE before he dominated with MK.

and because m2k dominates with the best character that means he should be banned?

Ken dominated the melee seen with marth and no one won more then him. I'm pretty sure they didn't call a ban for marth.

m2k dominates because he is an amazing player not because of MK.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
So what?
Those people who choose not to acknowledge the information are ignorant by themselves.
Those are the ones that go TR4Q.
You do not argue with those people period.

What is important is that the information is there for those that do want to learn.
That are willing to take the knowledge placed before them, and apply it.

You do not argue with someone who is shouting WOMFG MK IS SOOOO BROKEN!
You argue with people who actually try to justify their reasoning in a logical manner.

There is also no need to bring up sirlin.
I've already read it(looong ago) and we do not need Sirlin for something that is rather generic.
Ignorant people. You do not need Sirlin to define it.
 

Masmasher@

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
1,408
Location
Cleveland, Ohio! my homeplace but for now living i
Everybody was a noob at some point.

Noobs fill the pot.

Mk wins smaller tournaments and the trend follows into bigger tournaments.

I think that your average players opinion should come into context at some point. Especially since theres such a loud uproar and this process has been polled 3 times.

M2k while you may not want to have the game devolve into counter pick can you honestly say its any better at this point now. Theres no big secret techs. This is it the matchups are more inclined towards personal experience then the actual metagame by too much of a amount.

At the same time i can see how m2k might be upset he learned the character and practiced. At this point the only thing the average player supplies is the pot. Really he and a few others are so high up that they have become sort of detached from the community. With the ban coming up the cry of noob and pro alike he is forced to hear out what the rest of the community has to say.
 

Prawn

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
3,031
I think it would be healthier for the community if they started accepting "low tier" tournaments as being jst as important as say, team tournaments.

At least this way you'd still see more diversity, while still allowing pro-players to choose who they want, whether it be MK or not. In my opinion low tier games can be just as, if not more, exciting than MK vs MK or MK vs Snake, etc.

I think adding a third event to major tournies would be a very welcome change. No?
 

Eddie G

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Messages
9,123
Location
Cleveland, OH
NNID
neohmarth216
At the same time i can see how m2k might be upset he learned the character and practiced.
But Mango even showed a post by M2K on AIM that stated "Brawl is not hard to learn" or something along those lines. That being the case, can one really assume that he worked soooo hard on MK to the point that he would become really upset if he were banned? IMO, I think not.
 

Virgilijus

Nonnulli Laskowski praestant
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 27, 2006
Messages
14,387
Location
Sunny Bromsgrove
This thread is not about M2K v.s. Mango. Stop talking about it.

If you don't have anything to post about MK being banned, then don't post.
 

Sephiroths Masamune

Shocodoro Blagshidect
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
7,683
Location
In Sephiroth's hands.

lolwut? M2k was dominating the community with DEDEDE before he dominated with MK.

and because m2k dominates with the best character that means he should be banned?

Ken dominated the melee seen with marth and no one won more then him. I'm pretty sure they didn't call a ban for marth.

m2k dominates because he is an amazing player not because of MK.
M2K is not the only reason we want to ban MK.
the main reasons are he has no CP's, no bad stages, has his own tier above the guy who has his own tier, and he is broken.

M2K is a good player and he did **** with D3 but look how much he has gotten better using a broken character. Also referring to the Marth ban Marth wasn't broken you didn't see people who wanted to ban Marth because Marth wasn't dominating from the start and people actually beat Marths.
 

Angel.M <3 C:

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 23, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
imouto island
M2K is not the only reason we want to ban MK.
the main reasons are he has no CP's, no bad stages, has his own tier above the guy who has his own tier, and he is broken.

M2K is a good player and he did **** with D3 but look how much he has gotten better using a broken character. Also referring to the Marth ban Marth wasn't broken you didn't see people who wanted to ban Marth because Marth wasn't dominating from the start and people actually beat Marths.

My post was directed at jigglymaster. He said he wants MK banned because m2k dominates with him. I used the marth reference because ken did the same. as in ken dominated his era. like m2k dominates now so his post was faulty. Thats all i was pointing out. I was directing my post at anyone but jigglymaster.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
M2K is not the only reason we want to ban MK.
the main reasons are he has no CP's, no bad stages, has his own tier above the guy who has his own tier, and he is broken.
tierlist placement doesnt mean anything.
It just means, I am just that much better of a character than you.

big deal he has no cp's , no bad stages.
look at Yun in street fighter 3.
Same behavior.
M2K is a good player and he did **** with D3 but look how much he has gotten better using a broken character. Also referring to the Marth ban Marth wasn't broken you didn't see people who wanted to ban Marth because Marth wasn't dominating from the start and people actually beat Marths.
he totally was NOT doing well with DDD already.
Stop mentioning m2k doing well with MK.
Of course if you use better character you will do better.

Thats like getting mad that a Link user is doing better cause he now uses Marth.
better character=ability to place better. Simple.

If you notice, he isnt placing that much better either.

M2k is a great player, it makes sense the character will look that much better when the people he beats are not on his level.
The people that do beat him are on his level and show that MK isnt broken or undefeatable.


MK isn't broken. He isn't Akuma, he isn't Old sagat.
He is a Yun.
 

MajinSweet

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
295
Location
New York
M2K is not the only reason we want to ban MK.
the main reasons are he has no CP's, no bad stages, has his own tier above the guy who has his own tier, and he is broken.

M2K is a good player and he did **** with D3 but look how much he has gotten better using a broken character. Also referring to the Marth ban Marth wasn't broken you didn't see people who wanted to ban Marth because Marth wasn't dominating from the start and people actually beat Marths.
You obviously don't really know what it means for a character to be "broken". Just the fact that he has even or at least close to even match ups means he can't be broken.

MetaKnight wasn't dominating from the start either. First Snake appeared to be better, it was at least a month or so when people saw how strong MK was.
 

Masmasher@

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
1,408
Location
Cleveland, Ohio! my homeplace but for now living i
So what?
Those people who choose not to acknowledge the information are ignorant by themselves.
Those are the ones that go TR4Q.
You do not argue with those people period.

What is important is that the information is there for those that do want to learn.
That are willing to take the knowledge placed before them, and apply it.


You do not argue with someone who is shouting WOMFG MK IS SOOOO BROKEN!
You argue with people who actually try to justify their reasoning in a logical manner.

There is also no need to bring up sirlin.
I've already read it(looong ago) and we do not need Sirlin for something that is rather generic.
Ignorant people. You do not need Sirlin to define it.



^this

ignorance stems from both sides but whats most important is growth. IMO while some want him banned or kept around for personal reasons is the community improving at all or are we seeing stagnation.
I hear people saying get better but what kind of answer is that. I'm not saying theres some big secret or magical key but Is that all you can offer. Thats like asking someone new to the world whats one plus one. They dont know and nobody is teaching them the steps to the answer. but when they want to know you yell at them.
Has this game actually peaked.


Terrible analogy but i dont care.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
Counterpicking seems to make the game uncompetitive. Since skill is the basis of competition at the end of the day, how does this work? Firstly, counterpicking provides a crutch to cover for your weaknesses. Therefore you actually suck at these matchups and are detracting time from your main's practice time. Look at all of the great players. Xyro, for example, goes straight Samus. Why? He's comfortable with his matchups and is certain that he can win them. Xyro exhibits pure skill, which is the nature of competition and its very base. Many other great players never counterpick, rather getting better with their main. I for example, plan to never counterpick. If you can go through with a single character, you can become great. Without counterpicking, the game would be more competitive and people would likely be beating MK easier, considering even a strong secondary doesn't get the same amount of training time as a main on average. So if you played an MK alot, and the matchup is 60:40 against you, eventually you could figure out out to defeat MK.

tl;dr: Counterpicking is bad for competition.

>_>
 

MajinSweet

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
295
Location
New York
^this

ignorance stems from both sides but whats most important is growth. IMO while some want him banned or kept around for personal reasons is the community improving at all or are we seeing stagnation.
I hear people saying get better but what kind of answer is that. I'm not saying theres some big secret or magical key but Is that all you can offer. Thats like asking someone new to the world whats one plus one. They dont know and nobody is teaching them the steps to the answer. but when they want to know you yell at them.
Has this game actually peaked.
Get better is actually pretty good advice, because nine times out of ten, people already know the steps you can take to get better. It's just a matter of motivation and effort. There are tons of threads here with pretty much every technique you could need to know. Tons of match videos on youtube to study, tons of topics about playing smart and strategy. If you really need to ask "How can I get better" you are either really bad, to the point where you just need to play more, or so good that you've hit a wall, and in that case you need to figure out the problem on your own.

If I had to answer that last statement, I would say yes--Brawl probably is getting pretty close to peaking.
 

xDD-Master

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
2,992
Location
Berlin
11 Days, 256 Pages, 3,875 Posts, 1612 Votes:

Yes ............. 806 ... 50.00%
No .............. 626 ... 38.83%
Not Sure ...... 180 ... 11.17%

O_O
 

Eddie G

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Messages
9,123
Location
Cleveland, OH
NNID
neohmarth216
This thread is not about M2K v.s. Mango. Stop talking about it.

If you don't have anything to post about MK being banned, then don't post.
How about instead of assuming what my post is about just because the names "M2K" and "Mango" are in it, actually read it?

My post IS directed to the MK topic. I'm sorry it's going in circles at this point? :ohwell:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom