Lucario+ (Aura Extraordinaire)

Why does "Quick Attack Cancel" suddenly come to mind?

Arkaether said:

Why does "Quick Attack Cancel" suddenly come to mind?

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Its a little different, though i do admit the similarities. Theres no damaging hitbox attached to ES to cover your landings and if you land during extremespeed from above you get a good deal of landing lag.... You MUST go through the whole animation of ES to attack laglessly, which i believe quick attack does not require.

Lucario's fun to use in Brawl+. Sexy Neko let me play some + with him.

His AS tricks just got better, and his Uair is deadly. That's all I know lol :D

=Trela=

Get your last two cents in on the matchup vs. Metaknight, i didnt have much input to work with but i gave the Metaknight matchup a 50:50 due to Lucario's enhanced recovery game that makes him more resistant to gimps and ability to combo Metaknight surprisingly well. This discussion closes tomorrow for the next character so speak now if you have anything left to say, final edit on the matchup is tomorrow night and then its onto the next character (probably Marth or ROB).

But doesn't MK outrange and outprioritize lucario? On the other hand, Lucario doesn't want to be knocked upwards, and MK's not too good at that, he knock you off the side.

We said Lucario can combo MK, but MK can combo lucario too. Getting a grab on a spacing MK wont be easy either.

Hehe, I sound like I know stuff, never played an MK vs Lucario game, but I still think MK has the upper hand.

I would put it at 55:45 or maybe even 60:40 advantage to MK.
MK has recieved nerfs and lucario has gotten some significant buffs, his recovery most noticeable.
(short note on the recovery, the wing refresh was a bit forgotten when we discussed this in WBR and that makes this one of the very few unintened buffs that was kept)

with his new buff lucario can hit you very far out the stage and still recover, the problem is that MK can too, making this new semi-gimping tool a lot less usefull against him.

I can see this coming down to how well lucario can use his AS against MK, since his projectile is the only significant advantage I can see now.

if MK recieves more nerfs (not planned) or lucario some buffs (not planned, his CG actually got nerfed) then this might get even, but for now the advantage is still on MK.

paprika killer said:

I would put it at 55:45 or maybe even 60:40 advantage to MK.
MK has recieved nerfs and lucario has gotten some significant buffs, his recovery most noticeable.
(short note on the recovery, the wing refresh was a bit forgotten when we discussed this in WBR and that makes this one of the very few unintened buffs that was kept)

with his new buff lucario can hit you very far out the stage and still recover, the problem is that MK can too, making this new semi-gimping tool a lot less usefull against him.

I can see this coming down to how well lucario can use his AS against MK, since his projectile is the only significant advantage I can see now.

if MK recieves more nerfs (not planned) or lucario some buffs (not planned, his CG actually got nerfed) then this might get even, but for now the advantage is still on MK.

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Ok, that sounds fine... i wouldnt put it beyond 60:40 MK's favor tbh due to Lucario's projectile, but for now im putting it 55:45 MK's favor. MK lost much of his ability to kill early and as such may get auraped if he isnt careful, and as for the chaingrab we couldnt do it more than once or twice to him anyways making it pointless as utilt would work longer than uthrow... so it never really effected the matchup.

Given that Lucario is significantly less gimpable, has ridiculous spacing options and projectiles, and now has a significantly better ceiling KO options / cross ups and mixups, I think its safe to assume the matchup is close to 50:50. Tourney results will tell.

Alright, im gonna put it back to 50:50 because, as it stands, nothing has disproved it yet. If there is any change in the future I'll tweak the ratio some.

Discussion vs. Metaknight closed, there will be another one opening again in 7-8 hours.

LUCARIO VS. MARTH MATCHUP

Time to discuss Marth, the guy that you could've sworn was female! Be sure to talk about both good and bad, and be as objective as possible. The point of this is not to make Lucario look better, but to learn what to watch out for and what to do against him. You may also give your rough estimate on the matchup though it may or may not be taken into account. Use the ratio format if you wish to say where Lucario stands against him.

Matchup estimate - 45:55 (Neutral, Marth's favor)

Lucario's advantages
-Highly versatile projectile useable for both killing and damage racking
-Starts combos a little easier than Marth does, though both combo well
-Better off-stage game
-Extremespeed shenanigans can really mess with Marth if used right
-More powerful counter, which can KO but requires good prediction
-Superior recovery and edgeguard game

Marth's advantages
-Has better range over virtually all of lucario's attacks (except two: Fsmas and aura sphere)
-Has a powerful c-c-combo breaker: Dolphin Slash
-Quicker Counter, allowing it to be used on reflex in addition to predicting
-Has a Meteor smash which can be comboed into (Ken Combo)
-Superior grab range
-Dancing blade, 'nuff said

Things that are useful against him
-Fsmash, outranges EVERYTHING Marth has, use it liberally BUT not foolishly
-Aura Sphere, you can spam it or charge it for KO... either way it will give Marth a great deal of trouble and force him into many uncomfortable positions
-He is pretty vulnerable to gimping, do not be shy about chasing him off stage just dont get stage-spiked by a dolphin slash
-Lucario's bair is JUST shy of the range of Marth's best aerial, so if they even mis-space SLIGHTLY you can hit them with it.... those with perfect spacing will not be so susceptible though
-Bait his slightly laggy upwards attacks with dairing just above them, then dairing on them

Things to watch out for
-Fair, his fair > our fair and thus head on approaches in the air are highly inadvisable
-His dolphin slash has invincibility frames on 1-5 and hitbox on frame six... thus if you leave him even ONE frame of wiggle room when comboing he can escape
-Ken Combo, proper DI can help avoid it but its still possible in certain situations; he also has a footstool to dair combo which spikes when done right so watch for that
-His range is better than yours.... this can be compensated for with proper use of aura sphere, however; its almost NEVER good to approach him... make him approach you

MATCHUP DISCUSSION Finished
The above tag signifies that Marth discussion is finished and thus will not be discussed unless otherwise specified.

One of Lucario's main advantage is his Aura Sphere. The Aura Sphere leads to so many options like spamming little ones, having a nearly charged one or a fully charged one which leads to the Marth always being aware. One of Marth's advantages is his Fair is stronger than Lucario's still. Also that his SH can lead to more options than Lucario's. Lucario's Fsmash is also needed in this match up for us to compete with Marth. My matchup estimate is 45:55 for Marth.

Marth can counter Lucario's counter O.O

Well, Lucario is the gimper, and Marth gets gimped. However, Marth KO's early, so not much of the power for Lucario here. Marth has both power and speed and range, while lucarios *power* will never get that far due to Marths early KO's.

Lucario has AS though, and Lucario has neat combos, but Marth has no trouble interrupting them. I'd say 60:40 Marth's favour.

Rkey said:

Marth can counter Lucario's counter O.O

Well, Lucario is the gimper, and Marth gets gimped. However, Marth KO's early, so not much of the power for Lucario here. Marth has both power and speed and range, while lucarios *power* will never get that far due to Marths early KO's.

Lucario has AS though, and Lucario has neat combos, but Marth has no trouble interrupting them. I'd say 60:40 Marth's favour.

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I would have to disagree. Recent updates ruined marth. He doesn't have plethora kill moves anymore. Gimpimg marth will be not easy. We can just Ds out of fair.

I would say 55:45 marth favour. <3

Gimping Marth isnt easy, but he is slightly below average in the recovery department... especially if knocked a good distances away, like in a near-KO. I agree with 45:55 Marth's favor, but we still have numerous days to discuss the matchup (until this Friday). I dont give my initial rating until Wednsday.

Desire said:

I would have to disagree. Recent updates ruined marth. He doesn't have plethora kill moves anymore. Gimpimg marth will be not easy. We can just Ds out of fair.

I would say 55:45 marth favour. <3

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57.5:42.5 Marth's favour!

Pft. When Marth does his FAir/FSmash, he becomes a bigger target, so just bait with AS, use OOS NAir/DAir or throws as GTFO moves, and eventually he'll mess up his spacing and miss an FSmash/FAir and get FSmashed for it.

At least that's what I do to Marths off of Wifi. On wifi the button lag gets pretty nasty so I just die. LOL.

50:50 if Lucario plays his advantages right.
-DD

DarkDragoon said:

Pft. When Marth does his FAir/FSmash, he becomes a bigger target, so just bait with AS, use OOS NAir/DAir or throws as GTFO moves, and eventually he'll mess up his spacing and miss an FSmash/FAir and get FSmashed for it.

At least that's what I do to Marths off of Wifi. On wifi the button lag gets pretty nasty so I just die. LOL.

50:50 if Lucario plays his advantages right.
-DD

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I agree but I still think it is 45:55 in Marth's favour.

I think Marth BARELY has things in favor... if his sword was just a bit shorter this would not be so. His sword helps him become a mean, lean spacing machine.

KarateF22 said:

I think Marth BARELY has things in favor... if his sword was just a bit shorter this would not be so. His sword helps him become a mean, lean spacing machine.

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Imagine if his sword was smaller, it would lower his tier status so much.

F1ZZ said:

Imagine if his dagger was smaller, it would lower his tier status so much.

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Fixed.

That's right, it's really supposed to be a dagger. **** Sakurai for making it into a sword. > : (

Lets not get off topic please.

Soo..

Lucario's back air. Should we make it come out faster like his forward air?

Soo..

You really think Lucario needs moar buffs? o_O


If any Lucario mains are up to it, I'd like to see someone start compiling all of the new uses for Extreme Speed. So much awesome potential there. Maybe too much.

Buffs? More buffs? On Lucario?

Seriously, I don't think you guys need to make him any better than he already is. AS is, in my opinion, one of the best projectiles in the game. He's got insane combos, ES isn't a liability anymore, HUGE disjointed hitboxes, incredibly good roll, etc.

None of lucario's aerials need buffs. His ftilt might.... MASSIVE MIGHT need a small speed increase (at cost of damage, or whatever) but thats it. Honestly, hes about where i like him right now. Also, your not supposed to talk about buffs on this board unless your character desperately needs em (like Link). Talk about Marth please.

The only thing I'd like to see changed about Lucario is, as Karate mentioned, an FTilt trade (not buff) to make it faster but make it do less damage. More akin to third hit jab, basically.

Back to the Marth matchup, I'd put it at 55:45 for Marth. His fair outranges everything you've got except fsmash and AS. AS works wonders for damage, combo starting, and approaches. With the ES buff, gimping Lucario isn't easy anymore, but Lucario can still somewhat gimp Marth. Lucario can combo Marth, but only when he can land a solid hit. A Marth with good spacing won't be easy to hit.

Ok, two days left for discussion... I've given my initial rating on Marth to be 45:55, slightly in favor of marth, but still close enough to be called neutral. May tweak that number if something new comes up, continue discussion.

You guys are starting a matchup thread??? Is this even the final version of Brawl+...?

Samuelson said:

You guys are starting a matchup thread??? Is this even the final version of Brawl+...?

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No, but Lucario is essentially a finished product atm and thus it is pretty safe to talk matchups.

Edit: oops, wrong thread, but I love what buffs ES got.

KarateF22 said:

No, but Lucario is essentially a finished product atm and thus it is pretty safe to talk matchups.

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But the characters you're discussing might not be finished. I understand that you're exited n all but i think you might be getting a little bit ahead of yourself.

Samuelson said:

But the characters you're discussing might not be finished. I understand that you're exited n all but i think you might be getting a little bit ahead of yourself.

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Marth Marth Marth Marth.

With his Dancing Blade fixed, why would you change him?

Samuelson said:

But the characters you're discussing might not be finished. I understand that you're exited n all but i think you might be getting a little bit ahead of yourself.

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If a character drastically changes we will go back to them.

No point in wasting time is there?

Next matchup starting tomorrow morning... Marth's is now closed

after watching the BtL tourney last night..i did kinda get the impression that lucario needs to be toned down a bit somehow, cause with the new upB buff, he is almost impossible to edgeguard and never gets any landing lag, and also autosnaps to the edge. having said that, his upB does really make him more of a unique character, so im all for it staying, just at the expense of something else. lucario rules atm

Lucario is currently a monster. High or top tier easily - combos so well, can kill VERY easily if it becomes a war of attrition, and is near-impossible to edgeguard. Extremespeed is amazing.

Andarel said:

Lucario is currently a monster. High or top tier easily - combos so well, can kill VERY easily if it becomes a war of attrition, and is near-impossible to edgeguard. Extremespeed is amazing.

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which is why i think extreme speed is going to be made slower again (it was sped up by 25% )

jalued said:

which is why i think extreme speed is going to be made slower again (it was sped up by 25% )

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It would be fine, as long as the STARTUP isnt slowed down i have no issues. Movement speed would only effect it slightly, but it does give the opponent more time to react. At the same time, there are characters which get lucario pretty good (ROB :-/). Should prolly wait for another tourney result before REALLY deciding on it. ROB and all sword characters give lucario a pretty hard time, as people who outrange him and/or those with better projectile games (**** you ROB) will do pretty well against him.

BTW, ROB matchup starting in 10-15 mins...

LUCARIO VS. ROB MATCHUP

Time to discuss ROB, that ultra-campy son of a b*tch! Be sure to talk about both good and bad, and be as objective as possible. The point of this is not to make Lucario look better, but to learn what to watch out for and what to do against him. You may also give your rough estimate on the matchup though it may or may not be taken into account. Use the ratio format if you wish to say where Lucario stands against him.

Matchup estimate - 45:55 (Neutral, ROB's advantage)

Lucario's advantages
-Superior combo abilities
-As ROB takes a while to kill us, Lucario usually gets within his peak percentages
-Lucario's counter can be used to abuse the habits of chronic spot dodge to downsmashers
-Does a pretty good job of keeping ROB offstage, just watch for the spike

ROB's advantages
-Much better GTFO ability than Lucario
-Better range on all aerials but dair (Lucario's bair is better than everything but Rob's bair)
-Has a powerful, albeit slow, meteor smash
-Good edgeguard game, better projectile game, reflector negates much of our Aurasphere's usefulness

Things that are useful against him
-He cannot air dodge while using up+b, making this one of the few times that it is safe to use Aurasphere on him
-ROB is juggled quite easily by Lucario's utilt and uair
-Pursuing him off stage typically yields positive results unless you get spiked
-His down+b can be grabbed in midair with an airdodge, preventing him from using it. Once we have it, we have a decent glide toss so try to use it some. Our dash attack is perfect for grabbing stationary ones, feel free to use it

Things to watch out for
-ROB can reflect Aurasphere with his side+b, so dont spam it and save it for when he is busy
-If he spotdodges, either counter or GTFO, he is about to downsmash or grab you
-ROB can both pursue offstage with his up+b and use his projectiles to disrupt our attempts at recovery, be careful while recovering
-Fully charged down+b can kill quite easily at surprisingly low percents, so watch out for it. It also lingers and spins in place, still causing minor damage and knockback

MATCHUP DISCUSSION COMPLETE
The above tag signifies that ROB discussion is done and thus not to be talked about.

A main disadvantage for Lucario is that ROB's air game is so much better. Also due to ROB's good edgeguarding game Lucarios new and improved recovery helps a lot. My matchup estimate is 45:55 for ROB.