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Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco

you're right. Bum laughs at ICz. he waits til they approach. spams Earthquake (or w/e that's called). if they do an aerial. CC > Grab > Bthrow > **** popo > **** nana > nana dies > **** popo. if the ICz camps, DK charges a punch. punch destroys them if they shield it or not. i always thought of the match as even. but Nintendude probably knows more.
It could just be that the DKs I've faced just don't know how to play the matchup (I never got to face Bum unfortunately). In a lot of videos I've seen though where ICs lose, it seems like the ICs lose due to being impatient and falling for DK's camping / getting punched. I think ICs should be able to outcamp/pressure DK and they can punish so much harder. Phish-it is a quality DK main on the EC and he thinks the matchup is hopeless for DK.

As for Ganon, yeah it probably isn't as uneven as I originally put it but I'm still certain ICs have an advantage. As I said he can get the hits in but isn't good enough to follow-up like Falcon/Fox can, and from my experience you can keep him from messing you up as long as you respect the hitlag he puts on your shields.
 

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
4,038
Location
Portland, Oregon
DK is garbage vs ICs, just block and blizzard, he he approaches me I have a huge double shield and a lot of patience, if he messes up to much he is wobbled to death / chain thrown to death / chain thrown for huge damage and another session of camping with IC's.

Yeah if ICs approach its hard to get through cause his bair is long and pushes us away if we shield. But we don't have to approach, he is at very little risk from Ice Blocks but we are at no risk if he doesn't approach.

Ganon is played similar to DK except his attacks kill Nana instantly if he hits her once, and he is harder to punish because of his jab. (you can CC dk's into grabs)
 

Blue Yoshi

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
4,410
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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
I think all the 10-0s should read 90-10 to shut up the low tier support. >_> Sure they CAN win... but in a tournament if like... Sheik, Fox, Falco, Marth choose to play super campy and gay against Yoshi or whatever. Lol GG
This is why these charts fail and get low tier players complain. All the top tier players just ignore the lower tiers. You might as well just make a chart of the top 10 characters and leave out the rest, as you're simply just throwing in a random number between 0 and 1... so why include them?

Also, the way people responded, they mis-understood my point. Low tiers are low tier because they suck. That's an obveous fact. Most matchups are unfavourable, and are usually 7-3 or 8-2 or worse. This does not mean that a bottom tier character cannot have some good or favourable matchups against a high tier character.

As for good players (some of which are pros) who use bottom tier characters (I think these are all right):

Pichu: KoreanDJ
Mewtwo: Taj
Bowser: Gimpyfish
Yoshi: Fumi (retired?)
GaW: Dire

among others.

Bottom line, if you are making a matchup chart of every character, make sure you take every character into account, and do an accurate matchup value for every matchup in the game. Otherwise, if you are going to ignore certain characters, don't even bother including them in the chart, and only include the high tiers.

I'm wondering if it's even worth the effort in trying to get some sort of low tier discussion... as no one cares for them. This thread was meant to be an "all characters matchup chart", but it has already failed due to half the cast being ignored. I'd recommend removing the bottom half of the tier list and only including the top half, as that is basically the only discussion / attempt for accuracy that is happening.
 

Mokumo

Smash Ace
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
885
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
No. Donkey Kong cannot kill Falcon from a grab at 0%. It's impossible. Chaingrabs do not exist, and cargo-upthrow -> upair lets Falcon jump out (no air-tumble and little hitstun). I have killed from 28% on a falcon though.

Donkey Kong doesn't have much options against Falcon, either. Falcon can combo Donkey Kong like crazy from almost any attack, and has a Knee, which is basically a Donkey Punch that doesn't need to be charged. >_> Both characters have bad recovery, though.
It's 60-40 in Falcon's favor, IMO.
I think the Falcon/DK matchup is more like 70-30. I think it's agreed that Falcon vs Marth is 60-40 in falcon's favor (on the stage), and I think falcon has an easier time with DK than with marth. Although I'm sure both characters have the potential to **** the **** out of each other
 

HighFlyer

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
2
@Strong_Bad : I'll take the 60-40 and yeah I guess I overexaggerated on the 0%>stock, I just hate that headbutt
What about M2 vs Falcon? Mewtwo can actualy combo Falcon some, and gimp is cake...I'd say at least give Mewtwo a 10-90
Same with Ness, he is capable of more than 0-100 on Falcon, his fair can camp pretty well m'iright?
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
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Messages
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@Strong_Bad : I'll take the 60-40 and yeah I guess I overexaggerated on the 0%>stock, I just hate that headbutt
yeah... i get ***** by falcons (keep in mind im MW so falcons don't suck here) whether i'm playing well or not. ):
 

Mogwai

Smash Gizmo
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I want to expect better of you, but I know not to
well MOGWAI, people try to make falcon look like a helpless mistake of a character. that only hold's true when he's off the ledge. otherwise he's devastating. and i really couldn't care less about anyone who says otherwise. in addition. he's the only character that can jump like a third of FD in one short hop. (and in like one second!) that's longer than every characters tech roll, enjoy being tech chased. and don't tech roll near the ledge. a bad DI at 50% may have just costed you your stock. all because you got what? fair'd.

Hey, why don't you money match my Falcon?? he's a bad character right? and you're clearly confident against him. i'm confident too. sounds like a money match would be interesting. :colorful:
**** YOU FOR EXPLOITING MY NAME SEARCHING TO LURE ME BACK INTO THIS THREAD!!!! :mad088::mad088::mad088::mad088::mad088:



...:laugh: anyway, ofc I'll mm your Falcon and likely lose due to my scrubbiness and your lack thereof, but the fact remains that you have very different opinions of characters and matchups than the vast majority of competent players. Maybe you're right and everyone else is wrong. Maybe Falcon is the most broken thing to happen to Melee since Fox, but the fact remains that most good players see Falcon as extremely limited vs. Spacies and Sheik, whereas you seem to think that the fact that he can combo **** them makes up for the fact that he should almost never be able to get a hit from a neutral position vs. an appropriately campy player. anyway, I'm not wasting any more time in this thread, find me at the next no johns or w/e and just ask to MM me with your Falcon and we'll do it.

p.s. I didn't **** you and don't have any problems with you, I just disagree with a lot of your matchup assessments. <3, don't get all Remo on us.
 

exarch

doot doot doot
Joined
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Usually not playing Brawl. Location: Enterprise
Oof, the Roy stuff is way off, I'll help out.

Roy beats Yoshi (60-40) and G&W (70-30)
What makes Yoshi do OK vs Marth fails against Roy; Yoshi wont be living to 170% against Roy. GW is just too light.

He is even with Link and Bowser. Link vs Roy is a match I've played more than any other Roy match, I could go into a LOT of detail about it but I hope y'all will trust me. Bowser I played Gimpyfish and went even. It took a little adjusting at first, but it's definitely an even matchup.

And he'll definitely do much better than that against Fox at least. Probably should be 30-70 or so, since he can randomly just take Fox's stocks off grabs and dtilts.

Also IMO he can be dangerous against sheik, 15-85 or 20-80. Sheik actually gets outprioritized by Roy, and she has a hard time actually getting inside to hit him. (Once there it obviously gets ugly, but he can frustrate her very well getting to that point.)

Sheik: 20:80
Fox: 30:70
Falco: 5:95
Marth: 10:90
Jiggly: 50:50
Peach: 10:90
C. Falcon: 40:60 http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=105351
Ganondorf: 40:60
Samus: 0:100
ICs: 0:100 (Although I trash most Icys)
Luigi: 15:85
Doc: 45:65
Pikachu: 45:55
DK: 25:75
Link: 50:50
Mario: 45:55
Y.Link: 50:50
G&W: 70:30
Zelda: 45:55 http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=124391
Bowser: 50:50
Mewtwo: 60:40
Roy: 50:50
Ness: 50:50
Yoshi: 60:40
Pichu: 80:20
Kirby: 80:20

But the most important ones I listed first. I can explain any one of these matchups though.
 

Binx

Smash Master
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Messages
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Portland, Oregon
they aren't Sheik has a slight advantage vs both, what people don't seem to realize is that at a high level of play a slight advantage can be leveraged over and over to lead to more and more advantage, some matches are close because of the 2 seconds of invulnerability after spawning, at a high level thats enough space to add pressure and even it up, it then goes back and forth with the first stock being the most significant.

Even theoretically lopsided match ups change a lot because of this, it basically means that Sheik who kill Marth most stocks with her being at 50% can be so pressured afterwards that it ends up being 0 0 and sheik has to do it again.

So even though she has a huge advantage each stock its negated, if the Marth player is good enough he can get a slight lead and if he doesn't die when she gets back he can get a small enough advantage to win the match even though it was not in his favor.

people need to realize a small advantage means a big advantage and most of the lopsided match ups vs low tiers are SO lopsided because the low tiers aren't FAST enough to take advantage of their 2 seconds of invulnerability or escape Sheik's invulnerability when they do kill her.

Most people aren't good enough to really use the speed their characters have properly, they are too aggressive or just bad at being aggressive. You need a sufficient level of tech skill to be aggressive and followup properly when you land hits, this is why the tier list does NOT apply to MOST people. This is also why a match up chart won't apply to most people, the one's it does apply to are good enough to know their characters match ups without it.

I'm all for supporting a universal match up chart. But people need to understand that it probably does not apply to them.
 

calmchaos

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2007
Messages
149
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Browns Mills, The Falco State
this is why the tier list does NOT apply to MOST people.
^^Intelligence ^^
No one believes me when I say this.

And just my $.02....
Play M2K as a falcon vs his fox or sheik and you'll see how helpless falcon can be.
The fact that the only way to escape sheik's tech chase is if she messes up, is pretty stupid. (Or falling and smash DIing the jab, so I've heard)
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
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Play M2K [...] and you'll see how helpless [you] can be.
pretty empty statement since 95% of us can't scratch m2k's top 10 characters

The fact that the only way to escape sheik's tech chase is if she messes up, is pretty stupid. (Or falling and smash DIing the jab, so I've heard)
the latter thing works, so it's not stupid, and it's strictly inferior to a conventional chain grab
 

calmchaos

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It's not an empty statement. He plays the character the way it can best be played, and when he says to your face "There is nothing you could do about this" you know it's bad.
It doesn't matter if you can't take the stocks off of him, it's the way he takes them from you, that let's you know how dumb a matchup can be.

I don't see how it's inferior if it works, and then she can just tilt to fair for a stock. And if you smash DI out of the jab tumble, then what? You get a grab maybe, and if sheik isn't over 30% you have to predict to follow up. Then is starts again.
I love falcon, i just think those two matchups are just stupid. Fox waveshine is basically death as well.

And even though A/SDI ing the jab works, you can't say that her tech chase vs falcon isn't stupid.
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
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San Francisco, CA
It's not an empty statement. He plays the character the way it can best be played, and when he says to your face "There is nothing you could do about this" you know it's bad.
It doesn't matter if you can't take the stocks off of him, it's the way he takes them from you, that let's you know how dumb a matchup can be.
...so this is nothing more than an appeal to authority. well done, but "m2k says so" doesn't (and shouldn't) convince anyone

I don't see how it's inferior if it works, and then she can just tilt to fair for a stock. And if you smash DI out of the jab tumble, then what? You get a grab maybe, and if sheik isn't over 30% you have to predict to follow up. Then is starts again.
I love falcon, i just think those two matchups are just stupid. Fox waveshine is basically death as well.
it doesn't work. in your post yourself you said it doesn't work because he can get out of it, and yet you still seem confused as to whether it "works" or not

on the other hand, chain grabs work. I don't see how it's comparable

And even though A/SDI ing the jab works, you can't say that her tech chase vs falcon isn't stupid.
sure i can

sheik's tech chase vs falcon isn't stupid

*gets hit by lightning and bursts into flames*



anyway, i have no interest in discussing the matchups themselves simply because i know very little (though apparently more than some of the people trying to "contribute")... but you can see the kinds of logical fallacies people roll with when trying to make these determinations. i can't wait for the defensive ad hominem that's fired back at me, as if making me look "mean" or "rude" would somehow invalidate what i said and make them "right".

and also, people try to argue the difference between 65-35 and 70-30... if you play 10 games, you're pretty likely (50%?) to get the same result regardless of which "ratio" is correct, so how is that remotely significant, especially when almost all of our sets are based out of 3, only occasionally out of 5?
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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...so this is nothing more than an appeal to authority. well done, but "m2k says so" doesn't (and shouldn't) convince anyone

it doesn't work. in your post yourself you said it doesn't work because he can get out of it, and yet you still seem confused as to whether it "works" or not

on the other hand, chain grabs work. I don't see how it's comparable

sure i can

sheik's tech chase vs falcon isn't stupid

*gets hit by lightning and bursts into flames*



anyway, i have no interest in discussing the matchups themselves simply because i know very little (though apparently more than some of the people trying to "contribute")... but you can see the kinds of logical fallacies people roll with when trying to make these determinations. i can't wait for the defensive ad hominem that's fired back at me, as if making me look "mean" or "rude" would somehow invalidate what i said and make them "right".

and also, people try to argue the difference between 65-35 and 70-30... if you play 10 games, you're pretty likely (50%?) to get the same result regardless of which "ratio" is correct, so how is that remotely significant, especially when almost all of our sets are based out of 3, only occasionally out of 5?
PockyD ur mean and rude so what you said is now invalidated.
 

Che_Lab

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
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Anchorage, Alaska
k the first thing i noticed wrong is that young link vs peach should not be 30-70 in peaches favor.. many people have been known to cp peach with yl..
i dont know what it would be.. but definately not that big of an advantage, 45 55 at least
 

Binx

Smash Master
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Messages
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Where do people get this idea that Young Link counters Peach? is it because Chu Dat beat a bunch of peaches 5 years ago with him?
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
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Spiral Mountain
I think it's also partly because Jash has never lost to a Peach with YLink and beat PC / Cort's Peaches in MMs at Pound 3 (if I recall correctly; someone correct me if I'm wrong).

I think Cort said he felt it was even, but I don't know for sure or if it was him or someone else and Cort has about 37 billion posts so I don't feel compelled to sift through them looking for something that might not even be there.

Hopefully he'll name-search and shed some light on this.

Bomb --> Dair *****.
 

Cia

das kwl
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Messages
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Top of the Tier List
I think it's also partly because Jash has never lost to a Peach with YLink and beat PC / Cort's Peaches in MMs at Pound 3 (if I recall correctly; someone correct me if I'm wrong).

I think Cort said he felt it was even, but I don't know for sure or if it was him or someone else and Cort has about 37 billion posts so I don't feel compelled to sift through them looking for something that might not even be there.

Hopefully he'll name-search and shed some light on this.

Bomb --> Dair *****.
@ NYC weekly. but he beat vidjo's peach @ pound

also, Jash doesn't use the boards. However, he firmly believed that Young Link had the advantage against peach because he was good at comboing and Camping peach.

i personally think YL has a VERY SLIGHT advantage over peach. and only on some stages (PS, YS, BF, DL). and other stages shift it in Peach's favor. Peach's problem with YL, and with many other characters, is getting within range for maximum damage. the good thing about Young Link is he's capable of keeping peach out for a long time. the problem is once peach gets in, he will almost never get away. and because of his terrible grab, peach can safely rain on his shield with FC'd nairs. his only 'safe' option is to buffer roll.

another problem is most peach users have no idea how to play the match up. but once you learn it, it's about 60:40 peach's favor.
 

Rubyiris

Smash Hero
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Apr 19, 2007
Messages
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Tucson, AZ.
Read mogawai's info on the matchup

Just don't approach and spam lasers

Only works on FD, and counter pick stages. Every other neutral stage allows Ganon mobility, and ways around his lasers. I've played against Ganons, and I've played Ganon vs other Falcos. The match-up is really difficult outside of FD, which I would hope any competent Ganon player would ban in the first place.

Ganon kills Falco in like 2 or three hits, it's so gay. And when the other player has better mindgames than you, well, you're ****ed.
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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I won't argue its numerical ratios, but I think many people (Doc / Luigi mains included) would agree that Sheik's one of Doc's worst matchups and one of Luigi's worst matchups, if not his worst matchup.
Yeah, but i'd put it 4/6, and 4/6 isnt a bad matchup.

Sheik's not Marth. XD


 

Sybawave

Smash Ace
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We should get rid of topics like this...who cares about the match up...if you lose you lose if you win then yay. All this is going to do is give people Johns
 

otg

Smash Master
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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
Doc matchups directly from the Doc master Dogy:

Dogysamich (1:30:57 AM): Doc/Character
___
Fox - 50/50
Marth - 30/70
Sheik - 40/60 (35/65)
Falco - 50/50
Peach - 45/55
Capfal - 40/60
Jiggs - 55/45
ICs - 60/40 (under the assumption ICs have no real CG on doc)
Samus - 45/55
Doc - 0/100
Ganon - 50/50
Luigi - 50/50*
DK - 45/55
Mario - 50/50**
Link - 55/45
Pikachu - 50/50
Y.Link - 55/45
Roy - 60/40
Zelda - 45/55
G&W - 60/40
Ness - 50/50
Yoshi - 60/40
Bowser - 55/45
M2 - 60/40
Kirby - 60/40
Pichu - 65/35*
Dogysamich (1:31:14 AM): * = It's a matchup i REALLY dont know too much about (should be one on pikachu, too)
Dogysamich (1:31:34 AM): ** = i could argue doc mario being 6-4, 5-5, or 4-6 real easy
Dogysamich (1:31:46 AM): so it's really easier to call it 50 50
DDoTWx2 (1:34:25 AM): wore
DDoTWx2 (1:34:26 AM): word
DDoTWx2 (1:34:41 AM): you think doc has the edge on ic?
Dogysamich (1:35:45 AM): under the assumption that they have no chaingrab
Dogysamich (1:35:50 AM): if they have a chaingrab, i'd call it even
Dogysamich (1:36:04 AM): so like, if wobbling is legal, i call it even
Dogysamich (1:36:12 AM): and beyond that, i dont know if they have a real, works anywhere chaingrab
Dogysamich (1:36:25 AM): but even with that, that matchup is kinda lol
Dogysamich (1:36:31 AM): you ban fd, camp platforms
Dogysamich (1:36:43 AM): pill till they get bored and come in, or until you can get over them safely
Dogysamich (1:36:44 AM): f.air
Dogysamich (1:36:44 AM): f.air
Dogysamich (1:36:45 AM): f.air
Dogysamich (1:36:46 AM): f.air
Dogysamich (1:36:46 AM): f.air
DDoTWx2 (1:37:30 AM): hmmm
DDoTWx2 (1:37:35 AM): and fox/falco is 50/50?
Dogysamich (1:38:23 AM): the way i see it, yeah
Dogysamich (1:38:35 AM): becaues doc actually has means to deal with pillaring (up+b)
Dogysamich (1:38:45 AM): so in the event he is put in that situation and wants to deal with it, he can
Dogysamich (1:38:53 AM): the matchup is really about keeping them out
Dogysamich (1:39:16 AM): doc can zone and still be mobile (FH d.air waveland, shbawd, etc etc),and he has cape to combat falco lasers
DDoTWx2 (1:41:24 AM): vs pika is 50/50?
Dogysamich (1:43:55 AM): i think it is, and it comes down to just knowing how to play it
Dogysamich (1:44:12 AM): or are you saying that as in you're surprised it's not like 60/40 or something?
DDoTWx2 (1:44:27 AM): i thought doc had a slgith advantage
Dogysamich (1:47:39 AM): i really dont know, i havent played a pikachu since i've gotten to "not suck status"
Dogysamich (1:47:54 AM): well, not a good one
DDoTWx2 (1:47:57 AM): ah
Dogysamich (1:47:58 AM): i've played a few, but well, they got annhilated
Dogysamich (1:48:00 AM): XD
DDoTWx2 (1:48:10 AM): umm
DDoTWx2 (1:48:23 AM): well besides that, i think you got everything right
DDoTWx2 (1:48:47 AM): so, woud you perhaps mind if added this convo to the matchup thread?
Dogysamich (1:48:59 AM): I KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO PULL THIS **** ON ME
Dogysamich (1:49:00 AM): XD
DDoTWx2 (1:49:01 AM): help them organize it a little better
DDoTWx2 (1:49:08 AM): loll dont gimme that
Dogysamich (1:49:23 AM): feel free, people are going to look at it and be like "omg no way blah blah blah. I saw this one doc get ***** by a ganon before that has to be 70-30"
Dogysamich (1:49:32 AM): DONT GIVE YOU THAT
Dogysamich (1:49:35 AM): YOU THINK IM DUMB OR SOMETHING?
Dogysamich (1:49:35 AM): XD
Dogysamich (1:49:44 AM): YOU THINK I CANT READ SETUPS
DDoTWx2 (1:49:45 AM): lol
DDoTWx2 (1:49:50 AM): yet you told me anyway
DDoTWx2 (1:50:19 AM): well w'e
DDoTWx2 (1:50:29 AM): your doing people a favor cause imo you got it all correct
Dogysamich (1:53:50 AM): yeah i told you cause its a setup
Dogysamich (1:54:00 AM): if we were playing, you'd be on the respawn platform
Dogysamich (1:54:00 AM): XD
DDoTWx2 (1:54:10 AM): haha shhhh
Yeah, there ya go.
 

Stripesorbars3

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
140
If Marth/Shiek is 35/65

than marth fox should be somewhere around 55 0r 60/45 or 40

and shiek/fox should be like 45 or 40/55 or 60
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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OTG what kinda sick, twisted, ****ed up society messes up and lets me be a "master". MAN I WISH.

And YEAH, I KNEW YOU WERE GUNNA DO THIS.

Now people are actually gunna expect me to sit here and defend, debate, and argue matchups.

-rage post-
 

smashkng

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Is the chart NTSC? In PAL Fox has a weaker up smash and he can't infinite shine combo Marth, but Marth's dair is nerfed because they made his dair a meteor. Is Fox worse in PAL? Is Marth better or worse in PAL?
 

idea

Smash Master
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- yes, it's all NTSC, i don't think most of us have even played PAL version
- my understanding is that all the top tiers are a bit worse in PAL, so that would probably lead to some discrepancies.

what's the PAL tier list look like, anyway? if there is such a thing?
 

smashkng

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- yes, it's all NTSC, i don't think most of us have even played PAL version
- my understanding is that all the top tiers are a bit worse in PAL, so that would probably lead to some discrepancies.

what's the PAL tier list look like, anyway? if there is such a thing?
There is one at http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=97627

But the tier is old and about PAL matchups I have no idea right now. Sheik's chain grab in Melee is escapable in PAL. I have never played NTSC Melee because I live in Europe.

I don't understand how can Ganon in that PAL list be so high, his fair is weaker than his back air in PAL and fair of Ganon in Melee is weak while dair is a bit weaker in PAL. Link's up is NOT a semi spike, Samus' extended grab does NOT exist. A surprise is that in PAL Yoshi is the 3rd heaviest.

I want people organising PAL Melee version tourneys, as I said there are big differences.
 

Eyce Theon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
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31
Location
North Carolina
Yoshi/C.Falcon is DEFINITELY not 0/100, I might even say it's a bit in Yoshi's favor (60/40, maybe). Here's a few reasons why:

-Falcon's horrible recovery is easily gimped by Yoshi's Nair/Bair/insanely fast edgehogs.
-With DI and his DJ weight, Yoshi can live amazingly high percentages, even when hit by knees.
-Falcon's combo game revolves around following his opponent with amazing momentum; Yoshi has many unorthodox ways of cancelling momentum (DJ weight, DJC turnarounds), and has mad CC too.
-Yoshi bends his body so much during attacks (see Fsmash) that the majority of his hitbox is constantly shifting around. This causes all sorts of Falcon knee/grab whiffing.

Yoshi's edgegame is the best example here. Say Yoshi CCs a move near the edge and reacts with a Dtilt. Dtilt has set knockback and will likely send Falcon of the stage. If Falcon recovers immediately, a Dsmash on the edge will send him far enough away for an edgehog to kill him in almost any situation. If Falcon jumps a knee or Uair towards the edge, Yoshi's Nair/Bair/Fair will likely outprioritize and push him far enough away/spike him to force him to recover immediately, while Yoshi still has options in the air. If Falcon falls down for a sweetspot instead, a Dair will almost always drag him to death range.


These points apply to other characters as well of course, but our best local player is a Falcon main, and these details in the matchup have become apparent through how many friendlies we get to play.
 

worldjem7

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
981
Location
Canada
I don't think it's fair to attribute "falcon is gimpable" to a specific character because Falcon gets gimped by everyone.

The main reason why Yoshi was butchered so much was because of his lack of a jump out of shield.

Once Falcon (or anyone for that matter) starts pressuring Yoshi in his shield, Yoshi can't WD oos so his limited options make him very predictable and easy to punish. Granted it's not like Falcon has much to pressure as effectively as say Fox or Falco but, he does make up for this with his speed.

It's probably not as bad as 100-0 but, I just can't see how Yoshi could have any advantage.

Is there something else that Yoshi can do to Falcon on-stage?
 

Hazygoose

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 5, 2005
Messages
1,999
Location
straight outta Locash
We should get rid of topics like this...
we should get rid of people like this

*gets hit by lightning and bursts into flames*
i wish

this confuses me
i think what vanz was saying is an extension of the typical "low-tiers have an advantage in experience." since it's such a close matchup, though, the experience against playing against y.link doesn't help him not get destroyed like other low-tiers in a lot of matchups, but actually win. so for all intents and purposes, peach has a very slight advantage...i think vanz was just trying to say peaches don't often abuse the matchup perks since they don't know it, which makes them lose in the close matchup.

but...it's still sort of shady to say "peach has an advantage but only these few peach players know the secret" or something similar when they might not know/might play vs crappy y.links/might have conflicting playstyles.

because of that, can we agree to keep "character experience" arguments out of the way in the future, since this thread sort of assumes the character is being played at ze's best? so...peach>y.link seems to be the conclusion past that.

or maybe i missed what vanz said entirely, lol.


edit: about the yoshi thing...i don't even see how yoshi could get around just nairs and grabs when spaced/done right. yoshi definitely has few advantages in the matchup. unless he's doing ledge eggs tricks all day or something.
 

idea

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
4,123
Location
Come By Chance Mews
lol, i saw that ad somewhere and saved it. i wonder what would have happened if i had clicked it...

- for any sort of matchup discussion, it's not fair to assume the other player is inexperienced with a matchup. whoever mentioned something like this.

- i really don't see what yoshi could do against falcon. i mean, couldn't the falcon do a lot of dash dancing while waiting for yoshi to do one of his many slow moves, then punish him for it by techchasing to edgeguarding a character with no up-b?

falcon would have to play the matchup weirdly, like you said, but yoshi is so limited. i mean there was a lot of "if the falcon does this move, here's how you get past it"...what if yoshi has to approach?
 

Cia

das kwl
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
8,231
Location
Top of the Tier List
we should get rid of people like this



i wish



i think what vanz was saying is an extension of the typical "low-tiers have an advantage in experience." since it's such a close matchup, though, the experience against playing against y.link doesn't help him not get destroyed like other low-tiers in a lot of matchups, but actually win. so for all intents and purposes, peach has a very slight advantage...i think vanz was just trying to say peaches don't often abuse the matchup perks since they don't know it, which makes them lose in the close matchup.

but...it's still sort of shady to say "peach has an advantage but only these few peach players know the secret" or something similar when they might not know/might play vs crappy y.links/might have conflicting playstyles.

because of that, can we agree to keep "character experience" arguments out of the way in the future, since this thread sort of assumes the character is being played at ze's best? so...peach>y.link seems to be the conclusion past that.

or maybe i missed what vanz said entirely, lol.


edit: about the yoshi thing...i don't even see how yoshi could get around just nairs and grabs when spaced/done right. yoshi definitely has few advantages in the matchup. unless he's doing ledge eggs tricks all day or something.
pretty much nailed it. but character experience means everything. it IS how we form our opinions of match ups right? :colorful:

i've been lazy about posting in here anyways. contrary to popular belief, i HATE writing essays. lol
 
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