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European Stage Ruleset Discussion Index (Brawl)

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
Edit:

Discussion has allready started.
I'm going to leave out obvious neutral/banned stages, if somebody feels like discussing any of those, tell me.

There won't be any set time periods, I'm just going to start discussion on the next stage when I feel like there won't be much more relevant input on the current one.

I'm going to keep track of allready discussed stages in the seccond post.
Also I've changed the categorys a bit, be sure to check them out.

Another important note (I'm going to quote Gheb on this):

Important:
It doesn't matter whether you like the stage or not. YOU HAVE TO BE OBJECTIVE.

When discussing the legality of stages the main question is: Why should we ban this stage? We don't try to find reasons why we should allow a stage - we assume a stage to be allowed and then try to argue why it shouldn't be allowed if you think it shouldn't). Don't ban a stage if there's no reason to do so (aka there's nothing broken about that stage).
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
Note: The stage discussions/polls have finished. This is the final stage list as decided by the European community.

Neutral Stages (for Stage Striking)

  • Battlefield - No discussion, obviously neutral
  • Final Destination - No discussion, obviously neutral
  • Lylat Cruise - Discussion Thread
  • Smashville - No discussion, obviously neutral
  • Yoshi's Island - Discussion Thread

Counterpick Stages


Banned Stages


Stages not mentioned here were not voted on and are banned.
 

Calzorz

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
1,395
Location
England
my opinions on stages and reasons why they shouldn't iv been in many tournys american england and european online tournys and i have good reasons and ideas of cp's neturals etc

Distant Planet = not really a good fighting stage rains which cna lead to death + animal never seen it in a cp which iv attended
Green Hill Zone= floor rbeaks and there are stage objects to hit u u can easily camp behind one etc to close to edges
Pictochat = one of most anoying stages its how u use the effects on stage to win its been in a few tournys iv enterd in but i dont think europe should use it
Yoshi's Island (Pipes) = a lame stage lets face it falling thru the boxes and yet again dies to easily
Mario Circuit = u can camp at one side of stage and just throw them of yet again and the cars can have a change in win / loosing
Onett = a meele map its one of those where u can survive til very high % if u tec right etc and the cars can change things in that
Port Town Aero Dive = how much i like this map there are no grabable ledges for most of the stage so it ruins it also the cars... !
Skyworld = well lets face it a stage that has floors u can break not really a tourny stage
Green Greens = well it was ogod on meele but it is far to small on brawl and the boxes can have a impact on it also get stuck under it or bomb boxes etc

they shouldn't be copunterpicks in my opinion and i hope it helped

i think this is the topic i found it a bit hard to read ur english in some places but was stil good as i cant speka a 2nd language
 

Blinky

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
245
Location
UK
The stages in the "Obvious (Insert catergory here) stages" are accurate and I don't see much point in discussing them as they are pretty much universally approved to be in those catergories, the boarderline stages I think would be good to get some discussion on.

As theres no stage threads on, and I'm not in the EBBR I might as well add my general thoughts here, and move them with additions in more appropriate threads when created.

Brinstar - This stage is a bit of a grey area for me, the main problems I think are the close boundaries and the lava, but I'm tending more towards counterpick. The lava can cause a few issues, but its really obvious, and doesn't do anything really stupid like grant one hit kills, Also, as most characters have good recoveries (yet not all) it can serve as a nice counterpick in some cases. Close bounderies just add it to more of a counterpick stage if you ask me, I don't think this stage promotes any bad stratergy.

Corneria - I've never thought this to be a good stage, even in melee. It aids campy gameplay with the ledge in the middle of the stage, as well as it being easily abusable by some characters such as mk. Lasers from the airships also dont help, as they break momentum, which isn't fair for the person who put the effort into controlling it.

Frigate Orpheon - I think this stage is definately a counterpick. There are only really three features worth looking at here, the ledge you can't grab, the random platforms near the boundaries, and the rotation. The rotation isn't an issue imo, it's pretty obvious and easily avoidable. The lack of a ledge on one part of the stage, while it can be annoying, is just something you need to consider when playing on the stage, its the same for everyone. True, Olimar may find it a difficulty, but that's what counterpicks are for, its not like he can not make it back, its just harder (although the moving platform does help on occasions). Finally theres the random platforms that can save you near the edge. These can be a bit unfair, but so can randall in melee, and the platforms on yoshis in brawl, and they are good stages.

Jungle Japes - I've thought of this more of a dodgy counterpick. The are many ledges, which can promote ledge abuse, but that fish (can't remember name) will normally end up getting you if you hang around the ledges too much, the would be your own fault. Otherwise you shouldn't really get hit by the fish. The water is an issue but it just means you have to recover different, if you land in there you would probably have ended up dying anyway. Also theres a high ceiling if I remember correctly, but that just makes it counterpick.

Luigi's Mansion - I feel quite strongly for banning this stage. While projectile campign isnt as useful here, other forms of unskillful tactics take hold, particularly for snake and mk. It also allows surviving to huge percentages with correct DI and teching. Which really slows matches down.

Norfair - Another stage I feel quite strongly towards banning. The lava can be annoying, more so than in brinstar, already causing multiple issues, but my major problem is the mass ammounts of ledges. This allows for unskillful ledge abuse, such as planking. While planking isn't normally a major issue (lets not go into this debate) in norfair, it is far too viable, among other ledge abuse.

Raibow Cruise - Perfectly acceptable counterpick imo. The only thing about this stage is that it moves. However it moves very slowly and is not random at all. It has very little in terms for other things which could make it banned, apart from possibly wall infinites, which should be banned as it is. This makes it a good counterpick for certain characters, and rewards players who know the stage, which is what its all about.

Pokemon Stadium 2 - In its neutral form, this stage is good, however, its transformations are terrible. All of its transformations are bad enough to completely disrupt gameplay, the ice part even increasing trip rate. This stage is an obvious ban imo.

Distant Planet - Another unsure stage for me. The centre is fine, and the creature that appears on the right barely effects gameplay, its mainly the flowers and left edge. The left edge can encourage camping, looking for back throw oppertunities. I know the water can push them back, but that doesn't add much. Also the flowers, while not a major issue, cause of how little the do, are still random items.

Green Hill Zone - Obvious ban imo. Walk off edges for characters like d3, or back throwing for kills. I know its not too bad compared to other stages the only reason other stages with walk off edges aren't banned is cause walk of edges are not there all the time. Also, the breaking floor can really kill characters with not amazing recoveries.

Pictochat - While not 100%, I'm much more in favour of banning, simply because of the random alterations to the stage. The can cause some random annoyances, either breaking momentum, or randomly killing people out of nowhere.

Pirate Ship - I think this stage is ban worthy. Its annoyances are on par if not worse than those of pokemon stadium 2. Not only that but it has a stage effect which can quite easily kill people, and its not the slowest thing ever.

Yoshi's Island (Pipes) - This also has an issue with the edge, but I'd compare this to a slightly less annoying version of Green Hill Zone, as there is a less effective edge, and a less random hole in the middle. While I think its done to opinion, I'd ban this one.

Mario Circuit - Outright ban it, characters like d3 can just dominate with its chain grab against most characters, and the cars dont do much to break it up. This stage becomes more about camping and chain grabbing than anything. Also, the cars don't help make this stage good.

Onett - DI, teching and camping can really ruin this stage, so my vote is for ban. Cars don't help this stage either, even if they are of little threat.

Port Town Aero Dive - This may surprise people, but I've always thought this stage to be not as bad as people suggest. Don't get me wrong, this stage isn't great, but a "maybe counterpick". The only truely random thing here is the cars, which can often be avoided by observing when they are coming, or just not standing on the floor. The lack of ledges do hurt some characters, however so did the lack of edges in mute city in melee, it just adds favour in the counterpick, like most counterpicks do.

Skyworld - Easily a ban imo, I really don't understand how skyworld has gone this far without being a definate ban. Every platform can be easily teched, at pretty much any time, allowing games to last long times, encouraging a form of camping. The breakable floors also ruin this stage.


As a side note to my posts, I would like to say camping in itself is a tactic which can be used, and in itself, not worthy of banning stages. Stages mentioned for banning because of camping are because of undeserved positional advantages, allowing players to camp.
 

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
Hum, should we take into account what we have already done in the SBR ?
Actually we haven't voted there, but have stated our opinions on 5 stages already. Well I guess we can still C/P or resume our EBBR posts here.

Also, I think we should define a date for the stages votes. If we could make the votes at the end of July, that would be nice. That means two months of discussion, I think that's enough. :)
 

Marc

Relic of the Past
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Messages
16,284
Location
The Netherlands
I suggest making a topic for every stage that needs discussion (everything that's borderline). I'd say two at once and two new topics after 1 or 2 weeks. Depending on how many people participate in discussion, we can make polls afterwards.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
I suggest making a topic for every stage that needs discussion (everything that's borderline). I'd say two at once and two new topics after 1 or 2 weeks. Depending on how many people participate in discussion, we can make polls afterwards.
That sounds fine.
I'm going to start today with the first two.

Edit: Well I've started with neutral Stages I guess we wont need much time for discussing them.
In the EBBR forum we also had some issues about YI being neutral so I guess it wont hurt if we create a topic for neutral stages too.
 

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
2 stages per week sounds good. But since some stages are really straight forward, I propose to pick 2 stages from 2 different groups. (Obvious Neutral and Obvious CP, then Obvious CP and Borderline when there aren't any neutral stages left, etc)

I suggest starting votes at the end of each week. We should probably restrict votes (since everyone, even non-european people, could vote on public polls), but I don't really know how, certainly to the people in the EBBR's social group (And we can add more people there).

(As for FD and BF, they are neutral, of course, but we can consider this week as a test for the voting system)
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
2 stages per week sounds good. But since some stages are really straight forward, I propose to pick 2 stages from 2 different groups. (Obvious Neutral and Obvious CP, then Obvious CP and Borderline when there aren't any neutral stages left, etc)

I suggest starting votes at the end of each week. We should probably restrict votes (since everyone, even non-european people, could vote on public polls), but I don't really know how, certainly to the people in the EBBR's social group (And we can add more people there).

(As for FD and BF, they are neutral, of course, but we can consider this week as a test for the voting system)
Yeah I'd say we should have restricted votes doing them in the EBBR group sounds logic.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
Major update in the first and the seccond post.
Check it out.

Edit: Someone may sticky this and close the FD/BF discussion topics?
 

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
Stickied.

I think we should set a minimal time period for each discussion, since some europeans might not be able to coome on SWF every day. (Seing how fast you wanted to close the YI's thread, Tero)
4 days ?
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
I think hyrule bridge should get some discussion, and some other stages that if not in singles, could work as teams only stages, HB is what seems by far MKs worst stage, probably gets outcamped by projectiles and has trouble killing (atleast harder then on many other legal stages), and gets his bad airrelease a boost for worse characters like marth and shiek(imagine a 0-KO that doesn´t damage)...
 

Marcbri

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 15, 2008
Messages
1,386
Location
Barcelona, Spain
NNID
Marcbri
so because a stage is bad for MK it should be legal? that's a dumb argument. I'm not saying that HB can't be a cp but that reason doesn't mean anything.
 

Meru.

I like spicy food
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
3,835
Location
The Netherlands, sometimes Japan
NNID
Merudi
3DS FC
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My opinion:

Yoshi's Island should be Neutral IMO. It's got very few hazards which are very little.

Brinstar and Frigate Orpheon should be counterpick. They're not 'good' enough for Neutral, but they're just fine to counterpick, they shouldn't be banned. The acid and transformations aren't game-breaking either.

Port Down Aero Dive, as fun as it is, should be banned. Cars are hard to see coming and very strong.

Skyworld depends too much on stage spikes and such and thus, should be banned.

Mario Circuit is a bit small, the cars are very annoying and it has walk-offs, making me think this one should be banned too.

Green Greens is okay, I guess. It is small and the blocks can be a pain in the @$$, but I find it passable.

Green Hill Zone is too strange. The half-pipe is weird. The checkpoint is seriously annoying, can rack up damage really quickly and it supports camping too much. And it has walk-offs. A fun stage, but an unfair one.
 

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
So How / When should we vote ? At the end of each thread ? At the end of the whole ruleset discussion (to have a better view on the subject)... ?

Should we restrict votes ?

Let's discuss this ^^
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
So How / When should we vote ? At the end of each thread ? At the end of the whole ruleset discussion (to have a better view on the subject)... ?

Should we restrict votes ?

Let's discuss this ^^

Personally I feel like we should vote in the EBBR group.
I'm curious what Marc is thinking about voting and stuff, so let's wait for him.
 
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