Lucario+ (Aura Extraordinaire)

KarateF22 · May 18, 2009

F1ZZ said:
A main disadvantage for Lucario is that ROB's air game is so much better. Also due to ROB's good edgeguarding game Lucarios new and improved recovery helps a lot. My matchup estimate is 45:55 for ROB.

Lets not forget the ROB is one of the few that can truly force US to approach HIM. His aerial game is better until we finally get a solid hit in, because then our strong combo game kicks in and allows us to dominate. I actually think ROB is a bit stronger of a counterpick, more like 40:60. Just my two cents.

DarkDragoon · May 19, 2009

KarateF22 said:
Lets not forget the ROB is one of the few that can truly force US to approach HIM. His aerial game is better until we finally get a solid hit in, because then our strong combo game kicks in and allows us to dominate. I actually think ROB is a bit stronger of a counterpick, more like 40:60. Just my two cents.

While it is true ROB can force us to approach, we do have the Range advantage, and at higher percents[something like 70%+?] our Projectile has the priority advantage, so if we approach smart, then we're golden.

One thing I always noticed about ROBs, is that if you approach from an angle that is like....okay, picture time:

Okay! If you approach from an upwards angle, from either in front of, or behind, ROB, then Lucario's Range of attacks completely overshadow what ROB can do to stop him, 90% of the time.

In Figure 1, you approach from the front, almost appearing to want to go vertically over ROB. Do not go vertical, because if he times a UTilt or USmash, he'll probably overtake you and start to combo you. So when you're coming in from the angle, you also gain the ability to utilize FAir, as well as a well spaced DAir to land a 'safe' hit and combo starter.

In Figure 2, it is basically the same idea, except because you either approach ROB facing the other direction, or jump over ROB to get into this position, you are using some serious mindgames, and if you space it right you can probably hit more often with this method if you can trick the ROB into using anything but his shield. You'll have to time and FFBAir so you can combo out of it, and at higher percents its a good idea to have an AS handy to fire if ROB goes flying, just to cut off potential escape routes, and follow him with a Grounded ES[Don't even short hop it, staying on the ground when using it has like, 2 frames of lag].

In both figures it IS possible to use UAir as a mix-up, but that takes some more timing and spacing than the other options, but is still very viable.

OH YEA! What if they shield this like a smart cookie? Well, Lucario barely lags on his aerials, so start up some jabs or UTilts, follow into some grabs, and the Combos just start themselves.

The only problem is killing ROB, but if he is the one trying to recover from offstage, we have the advantage, and all it takes is a little prediction or timing[With FSmash if he is going for the ledge, Aura Sphere or other aerials if he is going elsewhere] and we can keep him off the stage without a problem.

Long post? Yes.
tl;dr - I think the matchup is 50:50, if not 55:45 in Lucario's favor if he plays a well spaced offensive game and keeps the pressure.
-DD

KarateF22 · May 19, 2009

DarkDragoon said:
While it is true ROB can force us to approach, we do have the Range advantage, and at higher percents[something like 70%+?] our Projectile has the priority advantage, so if we approach smart, then we're golden.

One thing I always noticed about ROBs, is that if you approach from an angle that is like....okay, picture time:

Okay! If you approach from an upwards angle, from either in front of, or behind, ROB, then Lucario's Range of attacks completely overshadow what ROB can do to stop him, 90% of the time.

In Figure 1, you approach from the front, almost appearing to want to go vertically over ROB. Do not go vertical, because if he times a UTilt or USmash, he'll probably overtake you and start to combo you. So when you're coming in from the angle, you also gain the ability to utilize FAir, as well as a well spaced DAir to land a 'safe' hit and combo starter.

In Figure 2, it is basically the same idea, except because you either approach ROB facing the other direction, or jump over ROB to get into this position, you are using some serious mindgames, and if you space it right you can probably hit more often with this method if you can trick the ROB into using anything but his shield. You'll have to time and FFBAir so you can combo out of it, and at higher percents its a good idea to have an AS handy to fire if ROB goes flying, just to cut off potential escape routes, and follow him with a Grounded ES[Don't even short hop it, staying on the ground when using it has like, 2 frames of lag].

In both figures it IS possible to use UAir as a mix-up, but that takes some more timing and spacing than the other options, but is still very viable.

OH YEA! What if they shield this like a smart cookie? Well, Lucario barely lags on his aerials, so start up some jabs or UTilts, follow into some grabs, and the Combos just start themselves.

The only problem is killing ROB, but if he is the one trying to recover from offstage, we have the advantage, and all it takes is a little prediction or timing[With FSmash if he is going for the ledge, Aura Sphere or other aerials if he is going elsewhere] and we can keep him off the stage without a problem.

Long post? Yes.
tl;dr - I think the matchup is 50:50, if not 55:45 in Lucario's favor if he plays a well spaced offensive game and keeps the pressure.
-DD

....no offense, but none of what you said above works well practically and that straight forward. It CAN work, but you are also forgeting that he can spot dodge to dsmash, which basically makes him completely non-vulnerable. ROB has a very nice GTFO game that your completely neglecting in your above argument. ROB can also reflect our Aurasphere.

F1ZZ · May 19, 2009

Asfjklghasd;g lol **** ***

Marufuji Ryo · May 19, 2009

Anyone got any tips for destroying Wario? Got 3 stocked by one today and never got the chance to fight him with Lucario .

Veril · May 19, 2009

Rob is my anti-Lucario. I'm operating partially under the assumption that extreme speed will be toned-down, if that happens Rob's probably gonna be a solid CP character vs. Lucario. Maybe not a massive advantage, but a respectable one.

shanus · May 19, 2009

I have a lot of experience vs. ROB as Lucario. I think the match is 55:45 in our favor, huge comboability, easy to juggle, and we can really abuse the no AD on his upB.

Veril · May 19, 2009

Rob can outcamp Lucario to an incredible degree. I have a ton of trouble believing its in Lucario's favor.

shanus · May 19, 2009

The solution is don't let ROB camp you. Keep the pressure on him, Dair is your friend. UpB to reverse fair is a great option as well. I try to stay around ROBs ftilt range and be as annoying as possible till I find an opening.

Veril · May 19, 2009

shanus said:
The solution is don't let ROB camp you.

We are talking about Rob here right? I mean, he can fly in all sorts of ways and has great projectiles. He basically outranges Lucario in every way and so he has the ability to keep lucario from getting the hits in. Also, Rob can fly. Did I mention his projectiles, and the flying? And the side-b cowardice?

shanus · May 19, 2009

I play against a campy ROB all day long (shortline) and he is very good. I've just learned to deal with ROBs in general. Call them my specialty :D

F1ZZ · May 19, 2009

I believe the best way to play a ROB is to wait and let them make the first move since he can outrange Lucario in every way. Still think the matchup is 45:55 in ROB's favour.

KarateF22 · May 19, 2009

Waiting for them to make the first move just.... isn't the best option though. Their first move is going to be to run away and set up camp. Its best to be as aggressive as possible, bordering on reckless even. Once you "train" him to think your gonna be in his face, you bait his laggier close range attacks and then move in for the combo ****/ You gotta be in his face constantly so he can't be the campy ******* he is.

F1ZZ · May 20, 2009

KarateF22 said:
Waiting for them to make the first move just.... isn't the best option though. Their first move is going to be to run away and set up camp. Its best to be as aggressive as possible, bordering on reckless even. Once you "train" him to think your gonna be in his face, you bait his laggier close range attacks and then move in for the combo ****/ You gotta be in his face constantly so he can't be the campy ******* he is.

I see what you mean. Thanks I will be sure to use this strategy next time I play a ROB in Brawl+.

DarkDragoon · May 20, 2009

shanus said:
I have a lot of experience vs. ROB as Lucario. I think the match is 55:45 in our favor, huge comboability, easy to juggle, and we can really abuse the no AD on his upB.

>_> Thank you for reiterating what I said.

KarateF22 said:
....no offense, but none of what you said above works well practically and that straight forward. It CAN work, but you are also forgeting that he can spot dodge to dsmash, which basically makes him completely non-vulnerable. ROB has a very nice GTFO game that your completely neglecting in your above argument. ROB can also reflect our Aurasphere.

>_> Spotdodge to DSmash? Please. Just DI the little hit(s), and DAir him before he gets out of the animation, and we're right back to where my drawing comes in. ROB's GTFO game is good but extremely predictable, so its hardly a big deal. Rob being able to reflect our Aura Sphere is moot. We can combo into Aura Sphere, or we can fake ROB out, have him go flying past us when he uses his whirlyspinreflector and then we just turn around and fire while he keeps lagging from it.

ROB is a straight forward match, you just can't let him get out of your pressure and get time to think/set up camp. Even if he manages to get away and set up camp, infiltrating it is easy enough by putting all that pressure back on him.

>.> And everything I said works practically, because you do it. Go watch a replay of you vs. a ROB, or go play one right now, and tell me you don't do any of that.

>=o Son I know what I'm talking about.
-DD

shanus · May 20, 2009

Spotdodge downsmash is super predictable and if you do get caught in it as DD said, SDI. Up the first hit and you can dair him immediately. Its epic.

DarkDragoon · May 20, 2009

shanus said:
Spotdodge downsmash is super predictable and if you do get caught in it as DD said, SDI. Up the first hit and you can dair him immediately. Its epic.

I love Shaaaayyyyynnoooosssseeee.
-DD

shanus · May 20, 2009

For serious, it works on Pikachu and ROB

SDI up first hit = win

Used to work on Peach, but the damage increase on her downsmash removed that.

DarkDragoon · May 20, 2009

shanus said:
For serious, it works on Pikachu and ROB

SDI up first hit = win

Used to work on Peach, but the damage increase on her downsmash removed that.

>_> So now just SDI away and go flying that direction.
:D
-DD

KarateF22 · May 22, 2009

Last day for discussion, so get those tips/pointers/opinions in before tomorrow.

F1ZZ · May 24, 2009

KarateF22 said:
Last day for discussion, so get those tips/pointers/opinions in before tomorrow.

Who is going to be the next character we will be talking about?

KarateF22 · May 24, 2009

LUCARIO VS. SHEIK MATCHUP

Time to discuss Sheik, that alter ego of indeterminate gender of Zelda! I'm gonna call it a her since Zelda is a she. Be sure to talk about both good and bad, and be as objective as possible. The point of this is not to make Lucario look better, but to learn what to watch out for and what to do against her. You may also give your rough estimate on the matchup though it may or may not be taken into account. Use the ratio format if you wish to say where Lucario stands against her.

Matchup estimate -50:50 (Neutral)

Lucario's advantages
-Much better projectiles, always outprioritizes Sheik's (i believe)
-Has better killing power, especially at higher percents
-While still gimpable by Sheik, probably one of the most resistant to her gimping abilitiy
-Has a bit more range overall, but this is not that great considering the fact that if Sheik hits you once, your going to be hit five or so times if not more

Sheik's advantages
-Comboes like a son of a b*tch
-Forward smash that moves forwards (almost all that do that are useful)
-Multiple recovery options (upb and sideb)
-Able to combo into kill moves at basically any percent other than rediculously high (300%+)

Things that are useful against her
-Fsmash, can't beat that range
-Aurasphere, has better range and outprioritizes her projectiles. use it.
-Use upb before you use your second jump when fighting sheik when recovering

Things to watch out for
-You can get gimped if you lack your second jump, so save it until you need it.
-Her ninja stars (or whatever those are) are infamous for interrupting actions, especially your second jump. They are very hard to see and move fast and angle downards when she is airborne. Be careful not to get gimped by them
-All her smashes are good, usmash is great for killing and comboing into, fsmash is an advancing smash, and dsmash outlasts our spotdodge. Watch out for them.

MATCHUP DISCUSSION COMPLETE
The above tag signifies that Sheik discussion is complete.

F1ZZ · May 25, 2009

Sheik got major buffs in B+ even more than Lucariod did. Sheik can combo very easy which can get nasty for Lucario. Lucario has much better projectiles than Sheik which matchs the match up more even(I think). In this matchup Lucario has control of the air but has to watch out for her up tilt. My matchup estimate is 50:50. Hope this helps with the dicussion.

Palpi · May 25, 2009

Because of lucario's dumb recovery (sorry lol) and the speed and length of it sheik's primary way of killing someone under 100% (gimping) is rendered much less useful.

KarateF22 · May 26, 2009

I'd like to apologize for my slowness in updating lately, school is nearing its end for me so i have to go through one last blitz of tons of work before I can relax. Expect this week to be slow, but after that i should be fine.

P.S. I added an Ice Climbers vs Lucario fight between Chudat and Meep to the video section

KarateF22 · May 29, 2009

Sheik matchup ends Saturday guys... c'mon.... i need more input and approximate matchups to get this done.

Yingyay · May 29, 2009

Lucario has the advantage at higher percents because of his damage increase
-Fsmash is lagless so its a mindgame in itself
-Aurasphere spammers are annoying lol
- dair to land is nearly safe. Needles stop him but, it stops sheik from usmashing you
-Sheik is a girl so you automatically lose >=p

And basically all the things you said in the OP

I say 50/50

KarateF22 · May 31, 2009

LUCARIO VS. CAPTAIN FALCON MATCHUP

Time to discuss Captain Falcon, the guy with TEH MOVEZ! Be sure to talk about both good and bad, and be as objective as possible. The point of this is not to make Lucario look better, but to learn what to watch out for and what to do against him. You may also give your rough estimate on the matchup though it may or may not be taken into account. Use the ratio format if you wish to say where Lucario stands against him.

Matchup estimate - 60:40 (Advantage, Lucario's favor)

Lucario's advantages
-Screaming priority advantages, as Captain Falcon has about 0 priority except for utilt
-Combos and juggles Falcon very well
-Jab can clink/outprioritize all of Falcon's moves except utilt (i think) and Falcon Punch
-Dair easily gimps Falcon's recovery, as does a well placed Fair chain
-Recovery is much better and more versatile than Captain Falcons's, being hard to gimp

Captain Falcons's advantages
-The knee ***** very hard
-Meteor smash, both from side+b and dair
-Good at punishing mistakes swiftly and severely
-Once he lands a solid hit he combos pretty well, also combos into knee... which hurts
-Superior speed, allowing him to get inside the unattentive Lucario's safe zone

Things that are useful against him
-Jab. I'm dead serious. When in doubt, jab.
-Dair ***** his recovery pretty hard and allows for safe landings
-Fsmash outranges everything he's got (maybe not Falcon Punch though)
-Utilt ***** him pretty hard due to its priority, decent speed, and his high gravity

Things to watch out for
-His grab game is as nasty as ours, enabling him to start combos and pseudo chain grabs
-This is one of the few characters (along with Marth, Ike, Dedede, Jigglypuff) where if your shield breaks, you WILL die. Our roll is typically though not always a better option.
-The knee can be comboed into, but if you aren't careful he can also shorthop and fastfall the knee; not being aware of this can cause some grief.
-his Uair can be comboed into itself and into the knee, watch out for it.

MATCHUP DISCUSSION COMPLETE
The above tag signifies that Captain Falcon discussion is complete.

goodoldganon · May 31, 2009

I'd add Falcon's immense speed and ability to kill early helps against Lucario too.

Personally, I find it to go about 45/55 in Lucario's favor. Lucario has the priority and stupid good shield roll and OoS game. He can camp Falcon for a long time. Coming in from the air? U-tilt or U-smash. Coming from the side? Jabs Lucario's D-air also is good at intercepting recoveries and Falcon's is predictable. Also, don't forget how easy it is to build damage on Falcon and viola!

Now, make a mistake and Falcon is gonna punish you, hard. I find Lucario to be decently easy to juggle. It's easy to combo Lucario into a knee at a lower percent and the edgeguard or hog him. Capt. Falcon can stick in Lucario's face and as long as he keeps the assault on him and varies it up Lucario can find himself backed into a corner quick.

Overall, Lucario should win this match based solely on his stupid priority, but a simple mistake can lead to a lot of damage and probable death. With Falcon killing Lucario early (least in my experience) you won't be seeing Lucario's full KO power and eventually we WILL be removing Aura Stock so Lucario won't be helped or hindered by that.

Keep Falcon out of your face as best as you can and plan your attacks accordingly. 55/45 - Lucario

KarateF22 · May 31, 2009

goodoldganon said:
I'd add Falcon's immense speed and ability to kill early helps against Lucario too.

Personally, I find it to go about 45/55 in Lucario's favor. Lucario has the priority and stupid good shield roll and OoS game. He can camp Falcon for a long time. Coming in from the air? U-tilt or U-smash. Coming from the side? Jabs Lucario's D-air also is good at intercepting recoveries and Falcon's is predictable. Also, don't forget how easy it is to build damage on Falcon and viola!

Now, make a mistake and Falcon is gonna punish you, hard. I find Lucario to be decently easy to juggle. It's easy to combo Lucario into a knee at a lower percent and the edgeguard or hog him. Capt. Falcon can stick in Lucario's face and as long as he keeps the assault on him and varies it up Lucario can find himself backed into a corner quick.

Overall, Lucario should win this match based solely on his stupid priority, but a simple mistake can lead to a lot of damage and probable death. With Falcon killing Lucario early (least in my experience) you won't be seeing Lucario's full KO power and eventually we WILL be removing Aura Stock so Lucario won't be helped or hindered by that.

Keep Falcon out of your face as best as you can and plan your attacks accordingly. 55/45 - Lucario

Theres a post on the Lucario forums where Lucario's stock aura was debated for like... fifteen pages. Lucario players favor keeping stock aura in as a whole. Removing it would be ignoring the players.

*EDIT* found this post: clicky

goodoldganon · May 31, 2009

You do know what aura stock is right? It's how Lucario get's rewarded for being behind and punished for being ahead. I fail to see how ANYONE would want that in the game. It does nothing but be a hindrance to the competitive nature of Brawl+. This isn't the topic for discussing this. You are discussing the Falcon matchup and I'm not here to side track that. Just know that WE ARE in the process of removing Aura Stock. If the code comes to fruition, I'd argue it then.

KarateF22 · Jun 1, 2009

goodoldganon said:
You do know what aura stock is right? It's how Lucario get's rewarded for being behind and punished for being ahead. I fail to see how ANYONE would want that in the game. It does nothing but be a hindrance to the competitive nature of Brawl+. This isn't the topic for discussing this. You are discussing the Falcon matchup and I'm not here to side track that. Just know that WE ARE in the process of removing Aura Stock. If the code comes to fruition, I'd argue it then.

Your right, this isn't the topic for discussing it. The point im making is that the Lucario players ALREADY decided removing Aura stock was a bad idea. It actually DOESNT hurt Lucario and ISNT anticompetitive as it doesnt actually hurt Lucario, it makes us play differently. Read the post for more details. If you ignore the Lucario players and go through with the changes ANYWAYS, then you guys are just being bullheaded.

P.S. Added your points on Captain Falcon.

shanus · Jun 1, 2009

KarateF22 said:
Your right, this isn't the topic for discussing it. The point im making is that the Lucario players ALREADY decided removing Aura stock was a bad idea. It actually DOESNT hurt Lucario and ISNT anticompetitive as it doesnt actually hurt Lucario, it makes us play differently. Read the post for more details. If you ignore the Lucario players and go through with the changes ANYWAYS, then you guys are just being bullheaded.

P.S. Added your points on Captain Falcon.

I disagree completely.

How is aura stock competitive? Your net gain for it is zero if you assume equal odds of being ahead or behind. But, in the long run it is nothing short of anti-competitive. You are penalized for playing well, and assisted for being outplayed. It adds nothing to the character other than a holding your hand when you play poorly and taping your hands together when you play well. I dont get why a player would support it other than the fact that it was there before. If anything, I think this is a buff moreso than a nerf for lucario.

Also, I'm not ignoring lucario mains if I'm one of them

GHNeko · Jun 1, 2009

Woaaah. Holy ****. This is dejavu all over again.

Someone should bring up that arguement we had months ago. LOL. I'm pretty sure lucario mains will NOT budge now.

leafgreen386 · Jun 1, 2009

I'd like to note that in removing aura stock, I would like to see his aura damage be shifted down by 20%, so that instead of starting at 20% and ending at 172%, it would start at 0% and end at 152%. He'd really be gaining more out of the deal than he'd be losing. Reading that thread, I see that near the end of it you guys were even talking about the idea of shifting the aura before the thread died.

Deleted member · Jun 1, 2009

as playing both lucario and CF, I'd put this at 55/45 or 60/40 for lucario.

CF has the speed, but lucario has the range (also with projectile)
lucario beats CF easily when it comes to recovery, and a good lucario can screw over a recovering CF with his AS and upB tricks.
and GoG made a good point, you can beat CF, but make a mistake and you are getting punished very badly for it.

Yingyay · Jun 1, 2009

Umm.....may I borrow the Sheik Matchup discussion for my guide since you guys covered everything?

Shell · Jun 1, 2009

I'd say about 60/40 or 65/35 Lucario.

For me, this is a harder matchup than Snake, but with many of the same problems. Although Lucario doesn't have as many projectile options as Snake, he can combo the balls off Falcon. U-tilt and u-throw set up for an uair into fair/bair depending on % and DI. This can often be followed with Jab or Jab canceled grab, which leads to more.

Lucario's Dair is incredibly effective at stopping Falcon's recovery if he has to aim for the ledge. Since it attacks from above, with a disjointed hitbox, it usually avoids the dangers of the massive hump-box or the raptor boost all together.

Between the aura balls, u-tilt, f-smash, and jab it can be quite tricky to approach with Falcon. I don't think the extent to which the range and priority of these moves can shut down Falcon's game can be overstated.

KarateF22 · Jun 1, 2009

SHeLL said:
aura balls

BLUUUUUUUEEEEEEEEEE BAAAAAAALLLLLSSSSS.

(If you've seen the youtube "more brawl taunts" you get the reference)

Anyways, i dont think the can of worms about Lucario's aura stock can be unopened at this point, so i just ask that we talk about this more civilized than we did last time and that only Lucario mains and/or LONG TIME (at least two or three months) secondaries post on the issue. Also be sure to read the post on it, or at least some of it, before posting...

Anyways, here is why removing it is a nerf to Lucario....

From what i have observed, being ahead for Lucario is NOT a curse upon him, it merely changes his game. Why? Because the opponents time to recovery from "ow im hit" state when hit is NOT scaled with the decreased knockback (from what i have noticed). The time they are in the "ow im hurt" state decreases at a rate SLOWER than the knockback for stock aura, allowing for excellent combo ability and juggle ability when ahead. This means if Lucario is at 150% and ahead, for example, the opponent isnt sent as far, but is stunned for almost the same amount of time as if they WERE sent that far, allowing for better comboes. I don't think the increased knockback and damage for being behind needs to be explained, but it decreases Lucario's combo ability and juggle ability with some moves in exchange for more potent, damaging, powerful attacks making it a fairly equal trade.

This means Lucario has NO NET GAIN/LOSS when either ahead or behind in stock, his game merely changes requiring the adaptable playstyle that Lucario is famous for. Not to mention, Lucario loses much (though not all) of his claim as the "comeback character". If it isn't broken, don't fix it... thats how many problems are caused.

Anyways, try to discuss both things, Captain Falcon and the Stock Aura. I don't provide much input on characters because i try not to sway people's opinions on the matchups.

F1ZZ · Jun 1, 2009

I would put the matchup 60:40 in Lucarios favour. The only advantage CF has is speed but that is about all. Other than that Lucario has everything else controlled.

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