Lucario+ (Aura Extraordinaire)

Captain falcon discussion complete, will be starting next one in hour or so...

KarateF22 said:

Captain falcon discussion complete, will be starting next one in hour or so...

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What character will be discussing?

LUCARIO VS. SNAKE MATCHUP

Time to discuss Solid Snake, that guy with the box fetish! Be sure to talk about both good and bad, and be as objective as possible. The point of this is not to make Lucario look better, but to learn what to watch out for and what to do against him. You may also give your rough estimate on the matchup though it may or may not be taken into account. Use the ratio format if you wish to say where Lucario stands against him.

Matchup estimate - 45:55 (Neutral, Snake's favor)

Lucario's advantages
-Aerial game trumps snake big time
-Can gimp snake fairly well
-Easily recovers from virtually anything that doesn't KO him
-Can chaingrab Snake with uthrow until 60%

Snake's advantages
-Very strong ground game
-Typically kills Lucario before he gets too strong
-His explosives become very annoying, very fast. If properly used they can make this fight a tough one.
-Hard to kill without gimping him

Things that are useful against him
-Fsmash is one of the few things that outrange his crazy tilts, though his own Fsmash will wreck yours
-He is juggled like hell, once you pop him in the air keep him there
-His upb makes him a prime target for gimping and auraspheres as there is little he can do while ascending

Things to watch out for
-His utilt is a good juggle and killer, one of the best ways to kill us prematurely
-You WILL die if that fsmash hits you above 50%, so dont get hit by it
-His C4 and landmine can be hard to see, and are often placed on moving objects. Dont lose track of them, they can kill at higher percents.

MATCHUP DISCUSSION COMPLETE
The above tag signifies that Snake discussion is complete.

Snake is generally a bad matchup against Lucarios but if we play right we can win. One of Lucario's advantages is the air and off stage. Snakes recovery is very predictable so you generally know where he is going to go. You can either gimp him or rack up some damage. Snake's advantage is that his tilts are stronger than some characters smashes. Therefore he has alot of different killing moves. Things that are useful against Snake is keeping him up in the air because Lucario has a major advantage. Whereas on the ground Snake has the advantage. Things to watch out for is that you do not want to attack a grounded Snake because of his up tilt . My matchup estimate is 45: 55 or even 40: 60 in Snakes favour. Hopes this helps.

Also here is a match of my friend 5ive using Lucario in B+ against a Ganon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ebpGi4aM_s&fmt=18

Snake:
Grounded:
-Stupid range, but its so predictable its awesome. Spot dodge it or fake out and roll behind Snake to punish his Utilt/FTilt.
-When you're on the ground make sure you keep using Jabs and tilts, as your attacks will clink with Snakes and he'll keep getting closer into your range.
-Only FSmash to punish lag or when he is approaching slowly, in order to fend him off.
-If he is mortar sliding, then shield it, follow with an OOS DAir.
-When coming down, it is best to avoid being directly over him because of his UTilt.
-A neat trick is to pick up a cooked or uncooked grenade, and time your DT to its explosion.
-UThrow->UTilts->Aerials work great.
-Keep the pressure with Aura spheres, if he gets campy with grenades charge up the aura sphere and try to get in closer, and punish the lag on the throw animation.

Off Stage:
-When he is recovering and can be gimped, grab that sucker.
-If he is recovering and can't be gimped, then keep pushing him back with NAirs, BAir, and FAirs. DAir tends to keep knocking upwards, especially with proper DI, so it won't get you closer to killing him, unless you angle it perfectly. Of course if he is high enough, UAir for a star KO.
-If he manages to go directly above you, he'll probably launch an attack, time a proper UAir, or get some UTilts ready, or dodge and punish.


Good stages:
WifiWR - Giant lips means he may gimp himself.
Wario Ware - Shallow floor, so he has no chance of recovering with C4. Platforms help keep him in the air for combos, and make for easy techchases.

Long story short: We dominate Snake in the air and off the stage. Get him in either place and keep reading DI and we can do 0->90% combos, or even 0->Death combos if he makes himself gimpable. Snake dominates pretty heartily on the stage though, but he is predictable. His kill/damage power makes up for it though. I'd call this 50:50 in general, but depending on the Snake's play style it could be 45:55 or 55:45. Also note that we can get inside of Snake's range quickly if we apply proper pressure.

o_o I was playing this match-up all last night with CT's #2 B+ player. Got kinda easy after a while.

-DD

We have a 0-60% uthrow chain grab on snake (at least) WITH DI due to his odd flailing animation when thrown that can ONLY be ended prematurely by DI'ing off stage, but when he does that we can proceed to do a fair chain. Captain Falcon has the same problem with us, but it lasts for a much shorter period of time making it basically worthless.... the space animals may have this problem too.

lucario is freakin rediculous in brawl+ he has so many buffs id almost call him the new marth/mk with a projectile

i would still nerf marth and mk before lucario any day

yummynbeefy said:

lucario is freakin rediculous in brawl+ he has so many buffs id almost call him the new marth/mk with a projectile

i would still nerf marth and mk before lucario any day

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Why yes! You're absolutely correct!

Or wait, does this have nothing to do with Snake?

On Topic:

Does that 0-60% CG count with UTilts or things thrown in? I'm sure once you reach the cap you can DThrow and follow with Aerials/Aura Sphere instead.
-DD

DarkDragoon said:

Why yes! You're absolutely correct!

Or wait, does this have nothing to do with Snake?

On Topic:

Does that 0-60% CG count with UTilts or things thrown in? I'm sure once you reach the cap you can DThrow and follow with Aerials/Aura Sphere instead.
-DD

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I'm not entirely sure, however, 0-60% is virtually guaranteed assuming you dont run off the stage and use only uthrows. Very fast reaction is required to work properly... i actually still have a video of it, though its only on a cpu. Let me get it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyhn1CGJmjQ

Lasts a bit longer than advertised due to sh*t CPU DI. This is also older version of B+, but the concept is the same.

Snake has a notable advantage on the ground. The shieldstun makes Snake's tilts harder to punish which makes them even more useful in this matchup.
Many of the things DarkDragoon said about the Ground game is correct.

I should add that, Grenades can negate Aura spheres except when charged when Lucario has over 150% as well as ftilts and utilts, so you have to be smart about where and when you use them.

I would say avoid Smashville due to the fact that there is no space to wall cling if you get edgehogged and there's good enough room for Snake to use his C4 recovery.

Oh, and you do have a notable advantage in the air.

I think this is even right now.

Last day for snake matchup, ill be switching it sometime tomorrow.

KarateF22 said:

Last day for snake matchup, ill be switching it sometime tomorrow.

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Can we discuss Pikachu+? Just a suggestion

F1ZZ said:

Can we discuss Pikachu+? Just a suggestion

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Ok, i apologize guys... im very late starting the matchup... im slammed with work... i promise to get the enxt one going as soon as i can... sometime tomorrow.... and yes, itll be pikachu.

KarateF22 said:

Ok, i apologize guys... im very late starting the matchup... im slammed with work... i promise to get the enxt one going as soon as i can... sometime tomorrow.... and yes, itll be pikachu.

Click to expand...

Did I just hear Pikachu?
OH ****.

LUCARIO VS. PIKACHU MATCHUP

Time to discuss THUNDER er... i mean.... PIKACHU! Be sure to talk about both good and bad, and be as objective as possible. The point of this is not to make Lucario look better, but to learn what to watch out for and what to do against it. You may also give your rough estimate on the matchup though it may or may not be taken into account. Use the ratio format if you wish to say where Lucario stands against it.

Matchup estimate - 45:55 (Neutral, Pikachu's Favor)

Lucario's advantages
-Superior range
-Typically lasts until higher percents, unless you get thunder'd, meaning aura bonus kicks in
-Aurasphere will always negate thundershock, and when full and/or at higher percents, go straight through it. We also fire auraspheres faster than Pikachu fires thundershocks.
-Combos Pikachu fairly well

Pikachu's advantages
-Combos Lucario fairly well >.<
-Thunder is a versatile projectile which can edgeguard and kill.
-Quickattack can be very annoying as well as a very good recovery.
-Good at getting inside our optimal range


Things that are useful against it
-Abuse our range attacks, but dont spam em. Fsmash and retreating bairs help keep pikachu out of range.
-Dair can sometimes catch his upb when he is recovering.
-SDI his dsmash upwards for a free dair.

Things to watch out for
-If you both DI and SDI his dsmash wrong, you will almost certainly die above 50%
-Pikachu juggles well, when in the juggle trap just DI as far away as possible and hit dair, as itll break his combo if it goes off.
-At higher percents getting grabbed can get you killed, especially with bad DI. His uthrow can combo directly into thunder.

MATCHUP DISCUSSION COMPLETE

Matchup estimate -

Lucario's advantages


Pikachu's advantages


Things that are useful against it
SDI Up out of the first hit of DSmash = great time to punish.

Things to watch out for


...
I was about to start discussing, and I realized I don't have enough playtime with this matchup.

TO THE BATCAVE.
-DD

Will edit this later with my input.

Just a heads up: I main Pikachu, and second Lucario, but I have no experience with this certain matchup. I'll try my best though.

Edit:

Trust me. No bias here.

Lucario's advantages
Lucario has superior range, and has a great combo ability to back it up. Lucario can combo a Pikachu to good percents, but that is just common knowledge for Lucario+. Though Pikachu has an arguably equal or even superior combo ability, with proper spacing, the Pikachu may have trouble getting close to start these combos. I say "may", because I myself do not have trouble getting in combo range using things such as QAC, but I can not speak just for myself. Pikachu also dies earlier than most of the cast. We have a good recovery which leads to amazing things offstage. Dair ***** Pika's recovery if we can hit it.

TL;DR
Lucario has much superior range
Lucario can combo a Pikachu to good percents
Pikachu dies early due to its weight and easy damage accumulation
Dair is a good choice for edgeguarding

Pikachu's advantages

Pika has a very annoying projectile which can annoy the Lucario. Pikachu is a great zoner and one must try not to be phased by it. Like Lucario, Pikachu can also combo to insane percents. Pikachu has the superior edgeguarding ability with things such as Jolt, nair, uair and Pikachu's signature attack, Thunder. Pikachu is also equipped with aerial and ground based mobility which makes Pikachu a hard target. QAC just enriches Pikachu's mobility, and makes him a ***** to hit. Pikachu also has great kill setups from both the top (thunder) and the sides (nair, fsmash). Pikachu has a very tricky recovery to edgeguard which may be VERY hard to hit.

TL;DR

Pikachu is good at the keep away game (Jolts)
Pikachu has a great combo game that matches or tops Lucario's
Pikachu has a great edgeguard ability and options
Pikachu has above average mobility both Aerial and Ground-based (QAC)
Pikachu has great kill ability from both the top and sides
Tricky hard-to-hit recovery


Things that useful against Pikachu
- Dair edgeguard out prioritizes QA. Throw it out to limit options.
- Fsmash/Dsmash greatly outranges Pikachu. Use it
- Combo please


Things to watch out for
- Pikachu's dsmash. Make sure to SDI up out of it, or else it may lead to a thunder.
- Watch your recovery. Pikachu has very unique options off the edge, and a good Pikachu will use Jolts to influence your movements off stage.
- Upsmash at mid to mid-high percents lead into a thunder kill.
- Don't let the Pikachu bully you. The Lucario has to be the bully in order to control the matchup. Don't let the Pikachu be aggressive.
- One uptilt/SHFFL fair/grab/upsmash can lead into a long combo.
- Watch for QAC's. They can be very tricky to predict.
- Use your range to your advantage
- Use your sweetspot ES to avoid edgeguards
- DI CORRECTLY

Key strategy for winning:
Don't let the Pikachu bully you. The Lucario has to be the bully in order to control the matchup. Don't let the Pikachu be aggressive.

My instincts tell me 45-55 Pikachu, but the more and more I think about this matchup, it seems a bit greater than that.

LOL.
So I guess the current advice would be:
0:0 - Don't worry about it, this matchup NEVER happens.
-DD

5ive said:

Will edit this later with my input.

Just a heads up: I main Pikachu, and second Lucario, but I have no experience with this certain matchup. I'll try my best though.

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Try playing with Ambrose. His Lucario is absolute ****.

I heard, Gi told me. But then again, I ***** Gi too <_<.

Pikachu's thundershock isnt that bad, we can outspam it and force you to approach if we wish. Our B deploys faster than your B. It also ALWAYS either clinks, or at higher percents and/or when full, just goes straight through it. Id also like to point out that spamming dair just over the edge, while not a GUARANTEE for hitting your recovery, will over half the time mess up your recovery a little and on certain stages like final destionation, if your lucky, stage spake you.

Actually, ALL of our aerials can intercept your recovery due to their disjointed hitboxes assuming he aim them right. I actually think its in Lucario's favor, as Pikachu can't pressure us off edge very well like he does most and we actually can pressure you because of how long our aerials last. Most of our attacks have a residual hitboxs which can be VERY annoying for Pikachu's primarily in-your-face style and if you try to camp we can negate all your shocks with baby aura spheres.

Despite our tiny grab range, we have a great grab game and an insanely damaging pummel attack. Our uthrow is virtually GUARANTEED to set up a combo on you and as stated above, we can SDI your dsmash and then dair you. Except for Pikachu's less reliable power attacks he takes forever to kill someone meaning Lucario will usually get above 100%, which is when he ***** the most. Lets not forget his crazy roll either.

I would call this 50:50 or 55:45 in Lucario's favor.

We have our differences and we see the advantages for both of our mains more-so than the other character.

You make good points, but I think there is no clear cut advantage to each character. btw, you can't deny Thunder Jolt > Aura sphere.

50-50

5ive said:

We have our differences and we see the advantages for both of our mains more-so than the other character.

You make good points, but I think there is no clear cut advantage to each character. btw, you can't deny Thunder Jolt > Aura sphere.

50-50

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baby auraspheres, perhaps, fully/partially charged ones... hell no. A fully charged aurasphere goes STRAIGHT THROUGH thundershock GUARANTEED. If it doesn't go through the thundershock, then they simply cancel each other out. At higher percents, auraspheres of small size can do the same. Lucario can spam auraspheres quicker and thus will USUALLY win a camp fest against pikachu.

Also, when Lucario has a full aurasphere your thundershock becomes incredibly risky to use, trust me... i know this from experience. Thundershock is a laggy move and if i fire a full aurasphere at you when you fire thundershock, you will still be in the thundershocks endlag. Since it goes straight through thundershock when full, there is no worry about it hitting me or stopping the aurasphere.

50:50 is about right though.

KarateF22 said:

you will still be in the thundershocks endlag. Since it goes straight through thundershock when full, there is no worry about it hitting me or stopping the aurasphere.

50:50 is about right though.

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>_> Well, everything you said was true, but this part I need to throw a foot note on.

Pikachu mains tend to fire their thundershocks from the air, meaning they suffer less lag, or none at all, or follow up the lag we have from firing the Aura Sphere with an aerial of their own.

However, Pikachu's approaches are painfully easy to see coming, and Lucario can, as we've stated over and over, out-camp Pikachu if we need to.

While Pikachu's size makes combos a little harder to come by with good DI, we can still get some guaranteed Aura Sphere combos for kills.

And Pikachu's only hope to killing us early would be via gimping, and Pikachu's offstage game doesn't really lend itself to be very good at gimping without putting Pikachu in mortal peril himself.

-DD

DarkDragoon said:

However, Pikachu's approaches are painfully easy to see coming, and Lucario can, as we've stated over and over, out-camp Pikachu if we need to.

-DD

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QAC says hi.

DarkDragoon said:

And Pikachu's only hope to killing us early would be via gimping, and Pikachu's offstage game doesn't really lend itself to be very good at gimping without putting Pikachu in mortal peril himself.

-DD

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Upsmash thunder says high. Trust me, if your at 60% and you fail to DI, very easy kill.

5ive said:

QAC says hi.



Upsmash thunder says high. Trust me, if your at 60% and you fail to DI, very easy kill.

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>_> Not sure about the specifics of QA's priorities, but I'm half-sure that a well timed jab or tilt[out timing needn't be so exact, for we have large and lingering disjointed hitboxes] will cancel it right out.

>3>; USmash Thunder....you don't even have to SDI that...just hold the Control Stick...people forget to do that? Lawlll.

<_< Pika is still a quick bugger and has a lot more combo options because of his higher hitstun and quick moves against our large body, and I'm going with you guys on the 50:50.

-DD

DarkDragoon said:

>_> Not sure about the specifics of QA's priorities, but I'm half-sure that a well timed jab or tilt[out timing needn't be so exact, for we have large and lingering disjointed hitboxes] will cancel it right out.

>3>; USmash Thunder....you don't even have to SDI that...just hold the Control Stick...people forget to do that? Lawlll.

<_< Pika is still a quick bugger and has a lot more combo options because of his higher hitstun and quick moves against our large body, and I'm going with you guys on the 50:50.

-DD

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Upsmash thunder without DI goes straight up, but if you DI, you still have enough hitstun for a running thunder follow up. This happens from around 60 - 120%. Any higher, the upsmash will just kill you.

Yes, even with DI, you can still combo into a thunder. Trust me, killing is not a problem at all for Pika.

As for the QAC, the Pika shouldn't be QACing into much. They just have to be smart using the QAC around you. If the Pikachu isn't smart, proceed to punishing.

5ive said:

Upsmash thunder without DI goes straight up, but if you DI, you still have enough hitstun for a running thunder follow up. This happens from around 60 - 120%. Any higher, the upsmash will just kill you.

Yes, even with DI, you can still combo into a thunder. Trust me, killing is not a problem at all for Pika.

As for the QAC, the Pika shouldn't be QACing into much. They just have to be smart using the QAC around you. If the Pikachu isn't smart, proceed to punishing.

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=\ I dunno, I think that if Lucario does it frame perfect[read as: using buffer], he'll be out of lag and can Double Team or Air Dodge a running thunder.

And if we counter pick something like WFWR or [otherstagewithhighceiling], then it really pushes favor to Lucario.

:3 Wanna Wifi later?
-DD

I don't play on wifi, but I could show you what I'm talking about though. Sorry, but I hate playing online.

DarkDragoon said:

=\ I dunno, I think that if Lucario does it frame perfect[read as: using buffer], he'll be out of lag and can Double Team or Air Dodge a running thunder.

And if we counter pick something like WFWR or [otherstagewithhighceiling], then it really pushes favor to Lucario.

:3 Wanna Wifi later?
-DD

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What does buffer have to do with DI? If you're holding the direction on the last frame of hitlag, it will register the DI. Period. SDI isn't affected by buffer, either. If you meant that you could airdodge out due to being out of stun... well... you're wrong. Usmash -> thunder registers as a true combo in training mode even with DI. That means pika probably has 5+ frames of error to thunder you, especially when you consider that airdodges don't come out instantly.

Might I again add and emphasize that Jolt > Aurasphere. It's not as simple as saying charged/uncharged Auraspheres cancel out the jolt. You have to take in consideration the way Pikachu uses the jolt. I don't think you can consistently cancel out a jumping jolt with an aurasphere, just because of the 45% angle the jolt is sent. You also have to consider the unpredictability of the jolt in comparison to the AS. From previous threads, I don't see people complaining about Lucario's AS as much as Pikachu's jolt. Overall, the jolt is a MUCH more versatile projectile and while the AS is a good projectile in its entirety, it is undoubtedly the less one of the two.

A thing to note. Pikachu can use the stun from a full hopped forward momentum jolt as a combo starter. Lucario does not have this ability.

Again the more and more I think and read about this matchup, the more I see in Pikachu's favor. We might as well discuss this matchup on the Pikachu thread too, as we need input from both sides to get a proper, unbiased matchup result.

Care to specifically explain how it's more versatile?
Camping-AS either clanks or outpowers it depending on Lucario's % or if it's charged.
Speed-Lucario can fire them faster.
Power-TJ doesn't kill. AS can.
Uses-TJ needs a ground to travel upon, unless you actually try to hit with the ball where you would need to be much closer. Because of that, AS is superior off the ground and can be used to make recovery harder.
I don't see Pikachu players spamming TJ that much, but you see Lucario players spam AS.
I'm definitely going to be educated over TJ because I don't know the ins and outs of Pikachu. But at the same time, I see AS as so superior to TJ that I find it difficult to make an unbiased argument.

i have MUCH more trouble with jolts. I agree with 5ive. it is much more versatile.
the way it moves...just pisses me off. It also stays on the ground which means you can take care of them when they're in the air while the jolt spam ***** them on the ground, hits people on the ledge for reasons like stalling. And it can even dodge other projectiles...lol.

ShoeThief said:

Care to specifically explain how it's more versatile?
Camping-AS either clanks or outpowers it depending on Lucario's % or if it's charged.
Speed-Lucario can fire them faster.
Power-TJ doesn't kill. AS can.
Uses-TJ needs a ground to travel upon, unless you actually try to hit with the ball where you would need to be much closer. Because of that, AS is superior off the ground and can be used to make recovery harder.
I don't see Pikachu players spamming TJ that much, but you see Lucario players spam AS.
I'm definitely going to be educated over TJ because I don't know the ins and outs of Pikachu. But at the same time, I see AS as so superior to TJ that I find it difficult to make an unbiased argument.

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1.It doesn't matter if it "outpowers" it. The point is the target not the more powerful one.
2.The speed is practically the same...
3.Toon Link's projectiles don't kill, does that mean it's worse than aura sphere? no.
4It's better because it STAYS on the ground.The target can just dodge or DI away from AS because it goes in one direction.
5The TJ can be used in the air and still hit them too and can be used as an edgegaurd to send the opponents farther.

ShoeThief said:

Care to specifically explain how it's more versatile?
Camping-AS either clanks or outpowers it depending on Lucario's % or if it's charged.

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I think you cannot deny the camping prowess of the jolt. Might I remind you that damage percentage does not effect how well something camps. For example, Falco's lasers deal 2%, but are regarded as one of the best camping options in Brawl+

ShoeThief said:

Speed-Lucario can fire them faster.

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Arguable, but okay. But which is more predictable? Which lasts longer onstage? The answers can even be answered by random people playing with smashballs. I wonder why they complain so much about Pikachu, but not Lucario.

ShoeThief said:

Power-TJ doesn't kill. AS can.

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True. At the cost of your camping ability.

ShoeThief said:

Uses-TJ needs a ground to travel upon, unless you actually try to hit with the ball where you would need to be much closer.

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wrong. It's much better in the air. What Pikachu stays on the ground jolting? Almost 90% of the time, the Pika will air Jolt.

ShoeThief; said:

7661240Because of that, AS is superior off the ground and can be used to make recovery harder.

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Again, the straight trajectory of the Aurasphere makes it predictable. Pikachu's jolt has two different paths. Not to mention QAC --> Jump ---> Jolt which makes everything SOOO unpredictable.

Don't know what I mean? Here's a vid I made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md84...be.com/user/5iveRP&feature=player_profilepage
Please check 2:49 - 3:01

ShoeThief said:

I don't see Pikachu players spamming TJ that much, but you see Lucario players spam AS.
I'm definitely going to be educated over TJ because I don't know the ins and outs of Pikachu. But at the same time, I see AS as so superior to TJ that I find it difficult to make an unbiased argument.

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Huh? No, sorry. I think you need to see better Pikachus. Pikachu does not solely revolve around jolts, but when the situation calls for it, whether it be for spacing or for approaching, we jolt.

Again, as much as I love Lucario <3, Pikachu's jolt is better. If I need to make another essay, I'll do it. I'll even get the vBrawl Pika boards here. LOL.

ShoeThief said:

Care to specifically explain how it's more versatile?

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Yes.

ShoeThief said:

Camping-AS either clanks or outpowers it depending on Lucario's % or if it's charged.

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It'll usually clank. If you're stupid enough to used a charged one on a single jolt then...

ShoeThief said:

Speed-Lucario can fire them faster.

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As a matter of fact they both come out on frame 19, this is based on brawl sources, i'm not sure if the speed had changed from the transition, and i'm much too lazy to actually check.

ShoeThief said:

Power-TJ doesn't kill. AS can.

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You beat the jolt there. =/

ShoeThief said:

Uses-TJ needs a ground to travel upon, unless you actually try to hit with the ball where you would need to be much closer. Because of that, AS is superior off the ground and can be used to make recovery harder.

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Well the ball itself has a bigger hitbox than AS and it travels at an angle. AS has one constant path. Also, because of Pikachu's amazing momentum she(he?) can cover more ground while using jolt, coupled with QAC and you've got one fast, annoying SOB.

ShoeThief said:

I don't see Pikachu players spamming TJ that much, but you see Lucario players spam AS.

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Spam? In Brawl+? Just because you don't see someone spam doesn't necessarily mean they're not good at it.

ShoeThief said:

I'm definitely going to be educated over TJ because I don't know the ins and outs of Pikachu. But at the same time, I see AS as so superior to TJ that I find it difficult to make an unbiased argument.

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Honestly this entire argument is like comparing Luigi's fireball (lucario) to Mario's (Pikachu). I think we can all agree that Mario's is better.

edit: Holy crap 5ive.

@LG; Thanks, I didn't know that. That's sorta funky o.O. But yea, I was talking about the buffer frame allowing the air dodge, or a second jump in another direction, before the thunder got you.

>3>; I dunno, the Jolt and Aura Sphere move at kinda the same speed...and I always found them both predictable, but they're used for different things.

Jolt, as we've stated, isn't a kill move, but a spam/combo opener. It stays along the surface that it hits, giving it potential edgeguard use, on certain stages.

Aura Sphere is used for Spam/Kills. We can end lots of combos with an Aura Sphere, and at higher percents it has a large hitbox and more killing power.

So yea, given their frequency and tendency to fall into patterns, both projectiles are highly predictable.

So lets stop discussing which projectile is better, because when they cancel each other out and are both relatively easy to avoid, shield, or spotdodge, its kind of a moot point for anything past their theoretical use.

I mean jeez, this isn't frick'n Dragonball Z where we're locked in a beam struggle. Projectiles serve their purpose or they don't. Only compare them if they are attempting to serve the same purpose[Samus' Charge shot v. Aura Sphere].

/endrant
-DD

-DD

Painted ghost, they come out at same rate but Lucario's has much less end lag, thus allowing us to fire two faster than Pikachu can fire two. While this would never be the case, a pikachu and lucario standing on opposite ends of a platform spamming the projectiles, eventually Lucario's would start hitting pikachu's.

Our projectile, unlike pikachu's, can also kill someone far off the edge or force them to air dodge into an equally bad or worse situation. Our dair can, on occasion, combo directly into Aurasphere for the kill.

KarateF22 said:

Our projectile, unlike pikachu's, can also kill someone far off the edge or force them to air dodge into an equally bad or worse situation. Our dair can, on occasion, combo directly into Aurasphere for the kill.

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That can be equally said when our jolt combos into an upsmash frequently.

I change my mind. I played some really good Lucarios yesterday at a smash-fest. They were good, really good. I had the match up controlled and down pat. I had no major struggles, but on the other hand, Lucario had a pretty hard time approaching me. Lucario's AS were annoying at first, but very easy to overcome. They got hit a lot with my jolts though. I'll ask whoever owned the Wii I was playing on to upload the matches.

45:55 Pikachu

Lol! Revive!

But does anyone think that Lucario's counter is a bit slow? I find myself escaping it a lot whenever he performs it with the exception of the ledge attack.

Demacrez said:

Lol! Revive!

But does anyone think that Lucario's counter is a bit slow? I find myself escaping it a lot whenever he performs it with the exception of the ledge attack.

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Wow, someone actually revived this threaad and yes Lucario's counter is slow. The counter is called Double Team or DT for short and most people tend not to use it because it is very risky. Basically if you don't time it right you get punished with 10% or a death.