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Natural Selection v.s. Evolutionary Theory?

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Faithkeeper

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So as a note beforehand, this is really more of a question than a debate topic because I entirely expect to be "corrected". I find it very likely that all of this is because I don't fully understand what was going on, but in the event this doesn't happen, this could turn out very interesting.


So to make this a debate, I'll make a claim based off of my question:

Current evolutionary theory does not follow the logic of natural selection.

Let me give you an example. The mudpuppy. Now I was told in highschool that this was the link between water creatures going onto the land. The mud puppy has a single lung that doesn't do anything. Now I ask you, how does that fit into natural selection? When did it become advantageous to grow random organs that don't do anything? And this doesn't happen in just one generation, it might take hundreds to grow a lung (genetically) the size of the one in mud puppies. In the meantime, why would this make any sense at all in natural selection? Does spending the energy to grow and maintain a random organ that does absolutely nothing other than weigh you down help you be more fit to your environment?

Second example. Flight. I can see the advantages of flying... in the long run. How did these wings get there to begin with? Again, how does spending the energy to grow a random set of wings [that until the point of flight are nigh useless] make you more fit to the environment?

Would the opposite sex really want to mate with something that has an appeared deformity? If I saw a member of the opposite sex with little stubs on her back (the beginning of wings) it would certainly make me more disinclined to mate with her. We as humans, and according to both theories, are products of natural selection have natural impulses to avoid those that are too different from us when mating. I don't see how that impulse would be any different in more primitive species making the transition from water to land or from land to sky.

These animals don't get to see the long term picture. For natural selection to be upheld, every single step in the process of developing of said wings must somehow make the creature more fit to their environment. And from where I stand, it appears natural selection and the current theory of evolution contradict each other at this point.

Again, this whole topic is probably the result of a folly on my part, so please correct me if I am wrong, but do try to not do so too harshly.
 

Mic_128

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Current evolutionary theory does not follow the logic of natural selection.

Let me give you an example. The mudpuppy. Now I was told in highschool that this was the link between water creatures going onto the land. The mud puppy has a single lung that doesn't do anything. Now I ask you, how does that fit into natural selection? When did it become advantageous to grow random organs that don't do anything? And this doesn't happen in just one generation, it might take hundreds to grow a lung (genetically) the size of the one in mud puppies. In the meantime, why would this make any sense at all in natural selection? Does spending the energy to grow and maintain a random organ that does absolutely nothing other than weigh you down help you be more fit to your environment?
What about humans? We have usless organs (Appendix) we aren't slowed down or worse than the people who have it removed. While I can't speak for the mudpuppy, it could have just been a random mutation that happened to be a dominant gene, like brown vs blonde hair. Blonde hair is usually a recessive gene that has less chance to come forward than brown hair which is more dominant. It could just be that some of the fish were born with that gene switched on after ages of being off.

Second example. Flight. I can see the advantages of flying... in the long run. How did these wings get there to begin with? Again, how does spending the energy to grow a random set of wings [that until the point of flight are nigh useless] make you more fit to the environment?
Firstly, you can stop talking about energy usage. People who are bald don't thrive and have greater energy because they don't grow hair.

Secondly, feathers do more than just allow you to fly. "The functional view on the evolution of feathers has traditionally focussed on insulation, flight and display. Discoveries of non-flying Late Cretaceous feathered dinosaurs in China however suggest that flight could not have been the original primary function"

Dinosaurs were cold blooded, so developing feathers for insulation would have been a good evolution choice, allowing them to contain heat longer, allowing them more energy and activity.

Would the opposite sex really want to mate with something that has an appeared deformity? If I saw a member of the opposite sex with little stubs on her back (the beginning of wings) it would certainly make me more disinclined to mate with her.
First off, we're humans. We see things that aren't like us to the point of almost too much detail. Dogs for example don't care about looks or species as they'll happily mate with dogs of different types, looks and even things such as stuffed animals and legs. Somehow I don't think dinosaurs are going to be complaining that a dinosaur has a few feathers when a mating opportunity appears in which they won't get eaten by something else while doing it.

Secondly, dinosaurs eventually evolved into birds. Birds use their feathers to attract mates, like the peacock. the males have amazing plumage to attract a mate. So the dinosaurs may have infact found the feathers much more attractive than those without.

These animals don't get to see the long term picture. For natural selection to be upheld, every single step in the process of developing of said wings must somehow make the creature more fit to their environment. And from where I stand, it appears natural selection and the current theory of evolution contradict each other at this point.
"One theory is that feathers originally developed on dinosaurs as a means of insulation; those small dinosaurs that then grew longer feathers may have found them helpful in gliding leading to the evolution of proto-birds like Archaeopteryx"

Makes sense to me.
 

Faithkeeper

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What about humans? We have usless organs (Appendix) we aren't slowed down or worse than the people who have it removed.
The appendix didn't start out useless, this lung did.

While I can't speak for the mudpuppy, it could have just been a random mutation that happened to be a dominant gene, like brown vs blonde hair. Blonde hair is usually a recessive gene that has less chance to come forward than brown hair which is more dominant. It could just be that some of the fish were born with that gene switched on after ages of being off.
Ok, so we get the random lung after generations of genetics. Then we get the random hollow lung. Then we get the random entire respiratory system, capable of breathing "air". None of this actually helps the mudpuppy at all until the point of breathe... That's a little too much to say "random dominant gene" imo.


Secondly, feathers do more than just allow you to fly. "The functional view on the evolution of feathers has traditionally focussed on insulation, flight and display. Discoveries of non-flying Late Cretaceous feathered dinosaurs in China however suggest that flight could not have been the original primary function"

Dinosaurs were cold blooded, so developing feathers for insulation would have been a good evolution choice, allowing them to contain heat longer, allowing them more energy and activity.
So where do the wings fit in for this? I never really said anything about feathers, but you can't fly with feathers alone. Wings are about useless on the ground, so there's no point to growing them in the first place. Every step (barring a random dominant gene, but that can only account for so much...) must make the species more fit to its environment. If anything, the wings themselves make the creatures more unfit.


Secondly, dinosaurs eventually evolved into birds. Birds use their feathers to attract mates, like the peacock. the males have amazing plumage to attract a mate. So the dinosaurs may have infact found the feathers much more attractive than those without. "One theory is that feathers originally developed on dinosaurs as a means of insulation; those small dinosaurs that then grew longer feathers may have found them helpful in gliding leading to the evolution of proto-birds like Archaeopteryx"

Makes sense to me..
Times I mentioned feathers in OP: 0

You bring in information about feathers to refute something that was never about feathers to begin with.

Let the flaming begin. :bee:
 

Mic_128

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Devil's advocate for the win! *Highfive*

The appendix didn't start out useless, this lung did.
True, but is there any reason why it has to go only one way? Admittedly I can't think of any other examples of something starting as useless and evolving into useful, with the exception of Vogons (Their brain evolved from a misplaced, badly malformed, and dyspeptic liver) but that's fiction.

Ok, so we get the random lung after generations of genetics. Then we get the random hollow lung. Then we get the random entire respiratory system, capable of breathing "air". None of this actually helps the mudpuppy at all until the point of breathe... That's a little too much to say "random dominant gene" imo.
The mudpuppy is able to breathe with it's lung(s) as well as gills and skin itself. concidering the areas where they live are usually shallow waters it's not that surprising that they evolved a way to survive water running low/being washed out of the water. Have a few with genetic defects where they can't breathe as well underwater as above and suddenly you've got a new species preferring to live out of water.

So where do the wings fit in for this? I never really said anything about feathers, but you can't fly with feathers alone. Wings are about useless on the ground, so there's no point to growing them in the first place. Every step (barring a random dominant gene, but that can only account for so much...) must make the species more fit to its environment. If anything, the wings themselves make the creatures more unfit.
You don't get wings before feathers the same way you don't get legs before skin. Feathers served a useful purpose for mating/warmth, and then some that grew larger feathers found they were able to glide. The ones that could glide were more successful than those who couldn't and began to evolve towards flight, with those with different arm mutations able to control their gliding better, such as being able to steer, or staying up longer. Few generations alter you've got ones that can flap their feather covered arms to stay up longer. Few generations later, winged flight.

You bring in information about feathers to refute something that was never about feathers to begin with.
Name any animal that has wings without feathers (well not counting pterodactyls, I'd assume that they evolved differently in a style like many gliders (sugar gliders, gliding reptiles/snakes, ect))
 

Reaver197

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So as a note beforehand, this is really more of a question than a debate topic because I entirely expect to be "corrected". I find it very likely that all of this is because I don't fully understand what was going on, but in the event this doesn't happen, this could turn out very interesting.


So to make this a debate, I'll make a claim based off of my question:

Current evolutionary theory does not follow the logic of natural selection.

Let me give you an example. The mudpuppy. Now I was told in highschool that this was the link between water creatures going onto the land. The mud puppy has a single lung that doesn't do anything. Now I ask you, how does that fit into natural selection? When did it become advantageous to grow random organs that don't do anything? And this doesn't happen in just one generation, it might take hundreds to grow a lung (genetically) the size of the one in mud puppies. In the meantime, why would this make any sense at all in natural selection? Does spending the energy to grow and maintain a random organ that does absolutely nothing other than weigh you down help you be more fit to your environment?

Second example. Flight. I can see the advantages of flying... in the long run. How did these wings get there to begin with? Again, how does spending the energy to grow a random set of wings [that until the point of flight are nigh useless] make you more fit to the environment?

Would the opposite sex really want to mate with something that has an appeared deformity? If I saw a member of the opposite sex with little stubs on her back (the beginning of wings) it would certainly make me more disinclined to mate with her. We as humans, and according to both theories, are products of natural selection have natural impulses to avoid those that are too different from us when mating. I don't see how that impulse would be any different in more primitive species making the transition from water to land or from land to sky.

These animals don't get to see the long term picture. For natural selection to be upheld, every single step in the process of developing of said wings must somehow make the creature more fit to their environment. And from where I stand, it appears natural selection and the current theory of evolution contradict each other at this point.

Again, this whole topic is probably the result of a folly on my part, so please correct me if I am wrong, but do try to not do so too harshly.
Current evolutionary theory is made through the lens of natural selection. While I cannot discount the case that maybe evolutionary theory is flawed, without substantial evidence to say otherwise, most claims to evolutionary theory/natural selection being incorrect are made through either misunderstanding of natural selection and evolution, or ignorance, or both.

As for mudpuppies, who says the lung doesn't do anything?

http://www.tulsazoo.org/webmanage/fileManager/files/MUDPUPPY.doc (this is a pdf, however it's not too long).

Not only do they gain oxygen through respiring through their lungs, but, most importantly it seems, it gives them control over their position in the water by either inflating or deflating the lung, both things that can certainly help to the survival of the animal (thus, be promoted by natural selection).

As for flight, there are flying critters that don't have feathers (bats). Also, wings probably evolved from what may have been at one point a different sort of extremity. Taking bats again for example, their "wings" are built around the elongated structure of what is akin to a forearm of sorts, complete with its five digits. Most likely, wings did not suddenly just "appear" as buds on some creature's back or side, that grew into wings over the generations, but are re-purposed limbs that have been evolved into a new role and function.

Like, with the example of bats once again, their ancestors probably had more conventional mammalian forearms, but had, maybe, particularly flabby and stretchy bits of skin that went around it and to their side. Such arms weren't suited for actual flying, but, it may have assisted the ancestor with gliding and controlling falls, giving them the advantage of movement, less danger to their health and well-being from falling from certain heights, and probably being able to better catch some prey to subsist on.

Sexual preferences are generally sided with choosing mates who have proven adept at living and surviving. Of course, if some mutation enables an organism to be more efficient or better adapted to surviving in an environment, chances are that a mate will find that a fairly positive attribute.
 

Faithkeeper

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Devil's advocate for the win! *Highfive*
:D


True, but is there any reason why it has to go only one way? Admittedly I can't think of any other examples of something starting as useless and evolving into useful, with the exception of Vogons (Their brain evolved from a misplaced, badly malformed, and dyspeptic liver) but that's fiction.
In fact, there is. For something like a respiratory system to evolve, it must be beneficial. The appendix was useful at the time of it's evolution, but we don't need it now. But to grow a random respiratory system over generations and generations that is useless for generations does not follow the laws of natural selection.


The mudpuppy is able to breathe with it's lung(s) as well as gills and skin itself. concidering the areas where they live are usually shallow waters it's not that surprising that they evolved a way to survive water running low/being washed out of the water. Have a few with genetic defects where they can't breathe as well underwater as above and suddenly you've got a new species preferring to live out of water.
Beautifully said. You see, all of this can't happen in one generation. You can't just go from one normal generation to a generation that can breathe better above water than underneath it. In actuality, during these possibly hundreds of generations of change, the mudpuppy is being less and less fit to it's environment of living under water. According to natural selection, it should die generations before it is more fit on land than in the water.

You don't get wings before feathers the same way you don't get legs before skin. Feathers served a useful purpose for mating/warmth, and then some that grew larger feathers found they were able to glide. The ones that could glide were more successful than those who couldn't and began to evolve towards flight, with those with different arm mutations able to control their gliding better, such as being able to steer, or staying up longer. Few generations alter you've got ones that can flap their feather covered arms to stay up longer. Few generations later, winged flight.
So how do we get to this gliding business? First you have feathers and boom! you can glide. I'm not sure about you, but if I feathers I couldn't glide. But I'm no dinosaur am I? Ok, let's picture a nice little dinosaur... now picture it with feathers. All the feathers you want, this thing can be covered from head to toe with feathers. Now, do you see that thing gliding around? I don't. I see a funny looking chicken with no wings.

Name any animal that has wings without feathers (well not counting pterodactyls, I'd assume that they evolved differently in a style like many gliders (sugar gliders, gliding reptiles/snakes, ect))
I'm not saying the wings are of any use without feathers. On the contrary they are of use with feathers, but only after under going generations and generations of change. In the mean time, it doesn't help the species at all.
This is the argument that is going to kill me... :)
Also, insect wings.

Current evolutionary theory is made through the lens of natural selection. While I cannot discount the case that maybe evolutionary theory is flawed, without substantial evidence to say otherwise, most claims to evolutionary theory/natural selection being incorrect are made through either misunderstanding of natural selection and evolution, or ignorance, or both.
Read [not the op] carefully.. we have a third motive here...

As for mudpuppies, who says the lung doesn't do anything?

http://www.tulsazoo.org/webmanage/fileManager/files/MUDPUPPY.doc (this is a pdf, however it's not too long).

Not only do they gain oxygen through respiring through their lungs, but, most importantly it seems, it gives them control over their position in the water by either inflating or deflating the lung, both things that can certainly help to the survival of the animal (thus, be promoted by natural selection).
High school zoology was a long time ago... my bad. Anyway, how did it get there? It had to start out as a lump that did nothing. Then over generations, a hollow lump that did nothing. Generations later it has to find some way to connect it to it's respiratory system without killing itself (not too easy if you think about it). And during all of this time it does absolutely nothing... Trying to add a part to your respiratory system to make you amphibious is extremely dangerous, potentially killing off a huge percentage of species with this mutation. This is promoted by natural selection how? It's not useful and it kills you.

As for flight, there are flying critters that don't have feathers (bats). Also, wings probably evolved from what may have been at one point a different sort of extremity. Taking bats again for example, their "wings" are built around the elongated structure of what is akin to a forearm of sorts, complete with its five digits. Most likely, wings did not suddenly just "appear" as buds on some creature's back or side, that grew into wings over the generations, but are re-purposed limbs that have been evolved into a new role and function.
I was thinking of insect wings when I said that.

Like, with the example of bats once again, their ancestors probably had more conventional mammalian forearms, but had, maybe, particularly flabby and stretchy bits of skin that went around it and to their side. Such arms weren't suited for actual flying, but, it may have assisted the ancestor with gliding and controlling falls, giving them the advantage of movement, less danger to their health and well-being from falling from certain heights, and probably being able to better catch some prey to subsist on.

Sexual preferences are generally sided with choosing mates who have proven adept at living and surviving. Of course, if some mutation enables an organism to be more efficient or better adapted to surviving in an environment, chances are that a mate will find that a fairly positive attribute.
^^
 

Reaver197

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In fact, there is. For something like a respiratory system to evolve, it must be beneficial. The appendix was useful at the time of it's evolution, but we don't need it now. But to grow a random respiratory system over generations and generations that is useless for generations does not follow the laws of natural selection.
You're making the fallacious assumption that, first off, the respiratory system as we now know it had to grow from, essentially, nothing, and that it's current use is the reason why it was always selected for in the first place, which might not be and probably is not the case.

Most systems evolved from a pre-existing system that may have been expanded on or improved for a use (adaptation) or, had some incidental ability that was co-opted to be used for an entirely new kind of system (exaptation).

Beautifully said. You see, all of this can't happen in one generation. You can't just go from one normal generation to a generation that can breathe better above water than underneath it. In actuality, during these possibly hundreds of generations of change, the mudpuppy is being less and less fit to it's environment of living under water. According to natural selection, it should die generations before it is more fit on land than in the water.
Please watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWGrMxKALzc&feature=related

Becoming a better land-dweller than an aquatic-dweller happens only after the creatures in question have found a sufficient reason to be on land in the first place. Certainly, an uncontested source of food, with little to no predators around, and probably a safe place to mate and have offspring would provide sufficient reasons for the creatures to adapt to living on land.

So how do we get to this gliding business? First you have feathers and boom! you can glide. I'm not sure about you, but if I feathers I couldn't glide. But I'm no dinosaur am I? Ok, let's picture a nice little dinosaur... now picture it with feathers. All the feathers you want, this thing can be covered from head to toe with feathers. Now, do you see that thing gliding around? I don't. I see a funny looking chicken with no wings. I'm not saying the wings are of any use without feathers. On the contrary they are of use with feathers, but only after under going generations and generations of change. In the mean time, it doesn't help the species at all.
This is the argument that is going to kill me... :)
Also, insect wings.
I submit these articles for your reading pleasure.

http://duoquartuncia.blogspot.com/2007/05/evolution-of-wings.html

This article talks about how the earliest forms of the "wing" were probably not for the intention of flight and/or gliding, but actually as a way to regulate body temperature and heat. It was simply an incidental aspect of the form that as it became more effective at dispelling heat, it would also become more aerodynamic. Also, the gliding functionality of feather covered fore-arms (however slight at first) would help in leaping after and catching prey.

Here are some more links about the origin of flight.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/vertebrates/flight/evolve.html page 1

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/vertebrates/flight/origins.html page 2

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/vertebrates/flight/converge.html Links to articles about avian, pterosaurian, and bat flight

High school zoology was a long time ago... my bad. Anyway, how did it get there? It had to start out as a lump that did nothing. Then over generations, a hollow lump that did nothing. Generations later it has to find some way to connect it to it's respiratory system without killing itself (not too easy if you think about it). And during all of this time it does absolutely nothing... Trying to add a part to your respiratory system to make you amphibious is extremely dangerous, potentially killing off a huge percentage of species with this mutation. This is promoted by natural selection how? It's not useful and it kills you.
You're making an erroneous assumption that a lung had to "start out as a lump that did nothing". It absolutely does not have to start off that way, and most likely did not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_bladder#Evolution

Such a sac could've been an incidental offshoot off of the gut. It would've been helpful for not only navigating the water via buoyancy, but would help with procuring sufficient oxygen from warm and/or stagnant water, which holds less oxygen than cooler water.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2002-02/1014304962.Ev.r.html

I was thinking of insect wings when I said that.
http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/flap_those_gills_and_fly/

This article is about how insect wings are modified and exapted gills.
 

Faithkeeper

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Devil's advocate gets boring after a while, I'm done. (Not to mention I could only successfully refute 1/2 of your arguments if I posted again.)
 

GoldShadow

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Reaver covered most of the important points.
Devil's advocate gets boring after a while, I'm done. (Not to mention I could only successfully refute 1/2 of your arguments if I posted again.)
Please do refute those then, because I'm interested in seeing what they are.

The truth is, there are not really any refutations; everything can be explained. I'm currently reading The Origin of Species and it's amazing how much Darwin covered and came up with explanations/hypotheses for (ie, virtually everything contained in the original post), even though it was written over a century ago. Pretty much everything that you'd learn in a modern intro bio class and then some.
 

Faithkeeper

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Will do Gold.

You're making the fallacious assumption that, first off, the respiratory system as we now know it had to grow from, essentially, nothing, and that it's current use is the reason why it was always selected for in the first place, which might not be and probably is not the case.

Most systems evolved from a pre-existing system that may have been expanded on or improved for a use (adaptation) or, had some incidental ability that was co-opted to be used for an entirely new kind of system (exaptation).

Please watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWGrMxKALzc&feature=related
I grouped some of your stuff together...

your video mentioned that the gills adapted and evolved into lungs. But lets look at the example here, what applies to lung fish doesn't always apply mudpuppies. The mudpuppy has both gills and a lung. If the gills turned into lungs they wouldn't be there... unless you are proposing mudpuppies had three sets of gills.


Becoming a better land-dweller than an aquatic-dweller happens only after the creatures in question have found a sufficient reason to be on land in the first place. Certainly, an uncontested source of food, with little to no predators around, and probably a safe place to mate and have offspring would provide sufficient reasons for the creatures to adapt to living on land.
This was never contested. I said I saw the advantages in the long run, but didn't see how this could be reached through generations of small changes, each of which must some how help the creature. (I still don't see how this is the case in the mudpuppy example.



2/5 ~ 1/2 :)
 

manhunter098

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Well mudpuppies are amphibians correct? Amphibians are supposed to have lungs in their later stages of life. What makes them unique is not that they have gills and suddenly they got a random lung, but that when they mature, while they do grow lungs they never loose their gills. There is a difference here, now instead of the lung being the organ that is so special its the gills, and the fact that they dont loose them specifically so they can live underwater their entire lives.

That means their vestigial lungs are not a new development, but the remains of the lungs that all amphibians grow.
 

AltF4

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I am not an Evolutionary Biologist. I am not even a Biologist. Hell, the only Biology I ever had was in High School.

But I can comment here on the applied use of the scientific method...

What is the goal for this thread? I think Faithkeeper was playing Devil's Advocate, so I won't harp on him, but what is the purpose? You see these sorts of discussions all the time. Someone trying to find an inconsistency in a scientific theory.

And they often find one. But that's no big deal. All that means is that the current theory is not the last one. Are we really to expect that Evolutionary theory today is perfect? And completely describes with impeccable detail every known phenomena? No. That would be silly.

So even if these are genuine failings of current evolutionary theory, it only proves a point that we already knew: that it is not perfect. If you want to actually make a point, then how about you suggest an alternative theory to replace current one? And how about you provide positive evidence to support that theory?

Then suddenly this topic becomes way outside the scope of an internet forum thread, and looks more like the topic of a PhD thesis on Evolutionary Biology. Hence why I stay out of scientific discussions of which I am not familiar.
 

GoldShadow

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Okay, I know the last posts were made a few weeks ago but since I requested that faithkeeper make that post, I feel I should also respond. I also want to preface this by saying that Alt is right. A few inconsistencies will be found in any theory. This is why we have research; because we don't yet have all the information to make a 100% correct model.

your video mentioned that the gills adapted and evolved into lungs. But lets look at the example here, what applies to lung fish doesn't always apply mudpuppies. The mudpuppy has both gills and a lung. If the gills turned into lungs they wouldn't be there... unless you are proposing mudpuppies had three sets of gills.

This was never contested. I said I saw the advantages in the long run, but didn't see how this could be reached through generations of small changes, each of which must some how help the creature. (I still don't see how this is the case in the mudpuppy example.
Mudpuppies are amphibians, and evolved from the same common ancestor as lungfish (sarcopterygii); first into flesh-finned/lobe-finned fishes that developed primitive lungs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrapoda#Lungs) and later into tetrapods and amphibians with more developed lungs.
(http://bill.srnr.arizona.edu/classes/182/Vertebrates/BonyFishEvol-1.JPG)

As Reaver mentioned, gills did not likely evolve into lungs. The lung probably originated as a gas bladder that began as a sac connected to the stomach. It eventually developed into a more complex organ for use in respiration, for use in times when water oxygen was low:
You're making an erroneous assumption that a lung had to "start out as a lump that did nothing". It absolutely does not have to start off that way, and most likely did not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_bladder#Evolution

Such a sac could've been an incidental offshoot off of the gut. It would've been helpful for not only navigating the water via buoyancy, but would help with procuring sufficient oxygen from warm and/or stagnant water, which holds less oxygen than cooler water.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2002-02/1014304962.Ev.r.html
The two important points so far are:
1) What applies to lungfish does apply to mudpuppies, since amphibians evolved from the same ancestor as lungfish.
2) The lung did not evolve from gills, but from an outpocketing of the stomach.

Fishes with a small sac that could hold air would have had an advantage over fishes without such a structure. It is entirely plausible to believe that the sac would've had blood vessels in it, allowing for gas exchange by simple diffusion. This trait would have been selected for, especially where there was less oxygen.

In fact, due to the lower pressure in shallower waters, there is less oxygen dissolved in shallow waters (http://krupa.locherenv.com/Eco_DO&Depth.php). Fish most likely to eventually make the "jump" to land would had to have lived near the surface.

Eventually these gas bladders would become well developed, allowing fishes with them to stay closer to the surface and gulp air instead of having to rely solely on gills; in other words, primitive lungs that would allow them to stay above water. The first primitive amphibians wouldn't have had legs, so they wouldn't get very far on land. But they'd have access to whatever was on that land; access to stuff that all the non-air-breathing fishes couldn't reach. Tetrapods with legs would form eventually by selection of air breathing fishes with the strongest fins. And like that, you have a new host of organisms - with both lungs and gills - able to walk about on land or survive underwater.

...so basically what manhunter and Reaver said.
 

RDK

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Unfortunately GS and Manhunter adequately answered Faith's questions before I even caught wind of this topic, but I suppose since Faith is lacking the drive to continue with Devil's Advocate then I'll be happy to take it up. We haven't had a good biology discussion in quite a long time.

Having argued with creationists and, more recently, intelligent design goons, I'm pretty well-versed in the nonsense they spew fairly liberally. Let's see how well you guys can defend evolutionary biology.

*INITIATING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE MODE*


What about humans? We have usless organs (Appendix) we aren't slowed down or worse than the people who have it removed.
How do you know that the appendix is useless? Perhaps there's a use for it that we just don't know about yet. Declaring that the appendix has no advantageous effect on the human body whatsoever is arrogant and constitutes a science-stopper. Anybody familiar with the discovery of junk DNA knows the dangers of this.

While I can't speak for the mudpuppy, it could have just been a random mutation that happened to be a dominant gene, like brown vs blonde hair. Blonde hair is usually a recessive gene that has less chance to come forward than brown hair which is more dominant. It could just be that some of the fish were born with that gene switched on after ages of being off
Then you admit that the emergence of the lung in the case of the mudpuppy isn't a case of new information being created, and rather is an example of shuffling of already existing information?

Firstly, you can stop talking about energy usage. People who are bald don't thrive and have greater energy because they don't grow hair.

Secondly, feathers do more than just allow you to fly. "The functional view on the evolution of feathers has traditionally focussed on insulation, flight and display. Discoveries of non-flying Late Cretaceous feathered dinosaurs in China however suggest that flight could not have been the original primary function"

Dinosaurs were cold blooded, so developing feathers for insulation would have been a good evolution choice, allowing them to contain heat longer, allowing them more energy and activity.
The problem is that evolution purportedly doesn't work that way. You say structures like wings don't pop up in the course of one generation; it happens slowly across many many generations, as the advantageous trait is selected for again and again. The problem is that in the early stages of the wing's development, it would have little to no advantageous power whatsoever. Half a wing does absolutely nothing, and the idea that the precursor to feathers would provide enough advantage to be repeatedly selected for is simply absurd.

Current evolutionary theory is made through the lens of natural selection. While I cannot discount the case that maybe evolutionary theory is flawed, without substantial evidence to say otherwise, most claims to evolutionary theory/natural selection being incorrect are made through either misunderstanding of natural selection and evolution, or ignorance, or both.
Funny; I thought natural selection is a mechanism of evolution, and that the two are completely different facets of evolutionary theory. Funny how evolutionists can't seem to agree on anything!

Red said:
Please : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWGrM...eature=related

Becoming a better land-dweller than an aquatic-dweller happens only after the creatures in question have found a sufficient reason to be on land in the first place. Certainly, an uncontested source of food, with little to no predators around, and probably a safe place to mate and have offspring would provide sufficient reasons for the creatures to adapt to living on land.
You seem to be implying that organisms can will themselves to evolve; almost as if they take an active part in their development. "...have sufficient reason to be on land in the first place"? Could you elaborate on this first?

And if said organisms are perfectly adapted to their marine habitat, what reason would they have to go on land in the first place? The likelihood of having pre-existing attributes that allow them to begin the developmental process that takes them from the water to the land is miniscule.

More "just-so" stories from the evolutionists.


You're making an erroneous assumption that a lung had to "start out as a lump that did nothing". It absolutely does not have to start off that way, and most likely did not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_bladder#Evolution

Such a sac could've been an incidental offshoot off of the gut. It would've been helpful for not only navigating the water via buoyancy, but would help with procuring sufficient oxygen from warm and/or stagnant water, which holds less oxygen than cooler water.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...4962.Ev.r.html
Again, you're ignoring the biochemistry aspect of this. The first stages of the emergence of the "gas bladder" transitioning into the lung would have provided absolutely no selective advantage whatsoever, yet you expect us to believe that it was reproductively successful enough to be carried on through various generations, until it finally developed into a completely different organ?

GS just basically repeated what Reaver said about the gas bladder, so refer to the above responses.
 

GoldShadow

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Kudos to you, RDK, on the devil's advocate stuff. I was never very good at that myself. Anyway, here we go:
How do you know that the appendix is useless? Perhaps there's a use for it that we just don't know about yet. Declaring that the appendix has no advantageous effect on the human body whatsoever is arrogant and constitutes a science-stopper. Anybody familiar with the discovery of junk DNA knows the dangers of this.
The appendix isn’t useless. We now know that it has endocrine and lymphatic functions in the fetus and in developing children. It also functions as a lymphoid organ in adulthood with activity diminishing throughout life and disappearing past age 60.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-is-the-function-of-t

Regardless, it is probably a vestigial organ; it most likely had important functions in humans’ ancestors. This is evidenced by the fact that, though it has some endocrine and immune functions, there is no deficiency or problem in people who either have their appendix removed or are born without one (the body is clearly able to compensate for a missing appendix). Thus, whatever vital need it once fulfilled is now satisfied by other organs, even though the appendix itself is still present. Same with any other vestigial organ in other species.

Clearly, nobody’s stopping science!


Then you admit that the emergence of the lung in the case of the mudpuppy isn't a case of new information being created, and rather is an example of shuffling of already existing information?
And even if it is just a shuffling, it would not make any difference! Historically, some of the most notable evolutionary changes have been the result of reshuffling. Duplication of hox genes allowed for more complex morphology, such as that found in vertebrates and mammals. Duplications, translocations, and inversions were responsible for three color vision in humans and four color vision in most birds. A large portion of the human genome consists of transposable elements that have been moved around, altered, and duplicated.

The problem is that evolution purportedly doesn't work that way. You say structures like wings don't pop up in the course of one generation; it happens slowly across many many generations, as the advantageous trait is selected for again and again. The problem is that in the early stages of the wing's development, it would have little to no advantageous power whatsoever. Half a wing does absolutely nothing, and the idea that the precursor to feathers would provide enough advantage to be repeatedly selected for is simply absurd.
Ah, but this argument discounts traits that, while not necessarily advantageous, are not disadvantageous. Thus, there is no selective pressure either for or against them. Such a trait may be propagated, but not selected for. Eventually, you will end up with a bell shaped distribution. In the modern world, height would be a normally distributed trait. You’ll find some people who are very short, some people who are very tall, and a lot of people that lie on a continuum somewhere in the middle. Thanks to modern civilization and infrastructure, height is not actively selected for or against; it’s not as if the majority of short people die because they’re short, or as if tall people are able to survive on account of being tall. Thus, a bell shaped distribution is maintained. This is called variation. In fact, you see it every day in other forms as well. Black hair doesn’t, to anybody’s knowledge, provide any selective advantage over blonde hair, which doesn’t provide any selective advantage over brown or red hair. Then why have these varieties of hair emerged? Because they’re not selected against. Maybe someday, if the environment were to change such that people with black hair were more likely to survive, then you’d see a shift towards darker hair colors.

Now let’s look at feathers. The first feather precursors and protofeathers started out as hair-like filaments or barbs. Since there was no selective pressure on them, they were neither removed from the gene pool nor actively promoted. Without selective pressure, there was a lot of room for variation. As one paper says:
“Once the minimal structural element, presumably recognizable as a barb, existed, a variety of phenotypes followed rapidly.” (http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/40/4/631)

It is possible that there were some organisms without any protofeathers, some with a lot of protofeathers, and a lot in between. Evolution does not result in every structure having a purpose; as long as a structure or change is not selected against, it may remain in a population even without any apparent use. It is possible that protofeathers had no use and simply propagated the way I described above. Or, it is possible that they did provide some functional advantage over those without protofeathers, as this article says:
“They’re too thin and sparse to have aided in flight or heating, but their length and concentration around Beipiaosaurus’ head, neck and tail suggests a display function.

Feathers, it seems, started as evolutionary bling.”
(http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/01/dinofeathers/)

Just because we do not know exactly what function they had, does not mean they had no function. It is also to note what this paper says:
“Uncountable numbers of words have been written in attempts to combine structure and function in attempts to reconstruct the primitive feather and explain why feathers evolved; e.g., for flight, insulation, waterproofing, display, etc. (e.g., Feduccia, 1995Go). The arguments often overlook the fact that the entire range of phenotypic plasticity in feathers is generated from a single set of structural proteins, predicated on very few identifiable structural elements, and uniformly produced by a common mechanism. The differences in the morphogenesis of the various feather shapes are small and, to a large degree, correlate with differential growth and a high degree of repeated, but highly similar, events.”
(http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/40/4/631)

It is important to remember that evolution never has an end in mind; protofeathers were not evolved for the purpose of eventually becoming feathers. They appeared by random chance, perhaps without function or perhaps with, and probably went in many different directions (most of which were not useful or selected for). One of those directions happened to be modern feathers. Changing or existing environmental conditions could have selected for those dinosaurs with bigger, “modern-feather-like” protofeathers. These may eventually have been selected for, for a number of reasons, such as the following:
“Some scientists speculate that feathers originated in dinosaurs to regulate body temperature. Just as in living birds, dinosaur feathers would have offered protection from cold and prevented overheating in the sun.”
(http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGoer/2005/3/birdevolution.cfm)

And what about the development of wings? There are a number of plausible and likely hypotheses for how wings came about, with a strong argument such as this one:
“After careful examination of the physical demands of pre-powered flight, we agree with Ostrom's (1974) arguments that Pro-avis developed the capabilities for powered flight from a bipedal cursorial habit. It is, however, difficult for us to envision how a structure such as an insect net could have developed lift, thrust, and drag capacities sophisticated enough for powered flight. We propose that a running and jumping bipedal animal that used its forelimbs for balance could be the precursor of animals with powered flight. The evolution of the modern avian wing is best explained as having passed through a series of adaptive stages concerned with the body orientation of a jumping insectivore. Extended forelimbs possessing minute increments of lift offer significant advantages to this jumping animal. Mass movements used for control of the body during a jump are very similar to the aerodynamic movements for control and propulsion used during powered flights. Thus, there is no need for the development of new and different neuromuscular pathways to perform powered flight as must be the case if an arboreal glider is to make the transition.”
(http://www.jstor.org/pss/2460975)

Other similar studies have been performed that also come up with the most likely hypothesis:
http://biology.kenyon.edu/courses/biol241/bird flight TREE 1999 Hedenstrm_Anders.pdf

Even if we ignore all this, it has still been shown, by molecular genetics and developmental biology, that the wings of modern day birds came from dinosaur hands:
(http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/109741948/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0)
(http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0003325)

Also an excellent read that answers a lot of questions, titled “What Good is Half a Wing?”:
http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/HalfaWing.HTM

Funny; I thought natural selection is a mechanism of evolution, and that the two are completely different facets of evolutionary theory. Funny how evolutionists can't seem to agree on anything!
I have absolutely no idea what this means.

You seem to be implying that organisms can will themselves to evolve; almost as if they take an active part in their development. "...have sufficient reason to be on land in the first place"? Could you elaborate on this first?

And if said organisms are perfectly adapted to their marine habitat, what reason would they have to go on land in the first place?

Evolution is not a directed process. It does not “seek to perfect.” Evolution is an explanation for the mechanisms by which organisms become better adapted to environments and ecosystems, which may themselves be changing. Some organisms were clearly better served by mutations that, by chance, helped them survive on air above the water’s surface and eventually on land (which was a previously unfilled niche). Mutations that reduce competition with other organisms and improve survival are generally beneficial and consequently, they are selected for.


Then some might ask, “what about organisms like sharks that have stayed almost the same for hundreds of millions of years? Clearly, if they haven’t changed, it’s because they’re perfect for their environment. Then why did other marine organisms change?”

Sharks are, first of all, not “perfect” for their environment, they are “very well-suited” for their environment. A very important factor is geography. The fish that eventually evolved into land-dwellers and amphibians lived in shallows near land. Not all fish lived in these areas. Secondly, these fish were not “perfect for their environment”; rather, they were “very well suited for the niche they occupied in the ecosystem.” Some fishes, by random mutation, gained structures that gave them an advantage over other fishes in that ecosystem (because they were “very well suited,” not “perfect.” By definition, it would be impossible to improve on perfection). Some of these new structures gave the “improved” fish access to land; in other words, access to an unoccupied niche without competitors. It is no surprise that traits that would allow these new fish to occupy land were selected for.

The likelihood of having pre-existing attributes that allow them to begin the developmental process that takes them from the water to the land is miniscule.

Again, you're ignoring the biochemistry aspect of this. The first stages of the emergence of the "gas bladder" transitioning into the lung would have provided absolutely no selective advantage whatsoever, yet you expect us to believe that it was reproductively successful enough to be carried on through various generations, until it finally developed into a completely different organ?
This is why “pre-existing” attributes never evolve consciously in some sort of direction. It’s not as if the small sac of air was chosen by nature so that it could eventually form a lung. It was a random mutation that underwent either positive selective pressure (it was selected for) because it was useful or, as I explained above, was not under any selective pressure and thus, was neutral and became distributed throughout the population. It could very likely have started out neutral and, as its size increased in some fish, became beneficial and selected for.

Remember, “no selective advantage” doesn’t mean “selective disadvantage.” There is such a thing as neutrality. Remember my hair color example? Additionally, the first stages of the gas bladder may have had some function that we don’t know about. Or maybe it didn’t. But it propagated regardless, just like brunette hair. I don’t see any reason for all these different human hair colors either.

 
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