The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

Nidtendofreak · Jun 30, 2009

/pulling away from horrible idea of Wuluigi/Wario being found sexy by someone.

Spadefox said:
That's not what I mean, lol.

Bowser is a really glitchy character. Klaw Hopping, Klaw Dropping and what else of a ton of crap he has.
The thing is, Bowser has pretty much noone who plays him, yet alone at tournaments. I've seen more Ikes and Luigis in tournaments than Bowsers, and I think the character ranking thread proves this point even further. Of course, noone would pay attention to him and try to make use of these discoveries or discover themselves.

Ike and Luigi also don't have the struggle of misconceptions or being just a generally unpopular/ugly character.

"We have the slowest, most worthless projectile in the game. 7:3 our favor, Ike has no projectile and we do."

"You should only ever get hit by jab or grab. Just shield everything else. 7:3 our favor."

Yaaaaaaaaaaaa, no misconceptions at all. >_>

I know about Bowser's glitches, I do secondary him after all. I'm not good enough with him yet though to focus on using glitches, got to work on the bases first.

As for Ike's tournament results.....they should be dropping a bunch soon.

1) Places in Texas are starting to ban MK in tournaments. That's minus 5 Ikes right there for counted tournament results between Houston, and the strong likelihood of San Antonio banning MK. 2 of us can't/don't go to OoC tournaments, 2 rarely can, and Houston hosts the big tournaments.

2) El Paso has basically quit Brawl. Minus probably the best Ike in the south there, he can't afford to get to OoC tournaments.

3) Kirk and San can barely get to tournaments now. Basically minus two really good Ikes there. For at least a few months.

4) Ussi and Ryko have both basically given up on vBrawl. Minus another two.

Ain't looking so good for us.

Kewkky · Jun 30, 2009

Wow this thread got off-topic soooooooooooo fast... Like, whoa.

You guys tell me who's uglier.

If Waluigi was in Brawl, he'd clearly be higher than Wario.

PhantomX · Jun 30, 2009

Pretty sure the ugliest person in that strip is Kirby.

adumbrodeus · Jun 30, 2009

dr.mario guy said:
I bet you were viewing Wario on a wide screen TV. In person he is quite Suave, sexy, controls his surroundings like a man, and yes the bulge in his pants is real.

...

Can somebody please get me something to claw out my eyes and more brain bleach? I don't think I have anywhere near enough.

da K.I.D. · Jun 30, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
/
3) Kirk and San can barely get to tournaments now. Basically minus two really good Ikes there. For at least a few months.
.

I am personally getting san transport to SNES. that will proly be his next tournament

Jupz · Jun 30, 2009

I feel that Bowser is severely underrated and I think he should be around mid-tier. He has grab release chaingrabs on most of the cast and can sometimes kill out of them. He has a decent matchup with Metaknight and lives for ages. His Side B is amazing and deals 18%. Fire is great for gimping people like Falco and Fox and his Utilt and Dtilt are fast reliable kill moves. He also has a massive shield.

Lmao, sure Wario might be the coolest person in brawl but hes not the coolest overall...

wow what a pimp ^^

Collective of Bears · Jun 30, 2009

adumbrodeus said:
...

Can somebody please get me something to claw out my eyes and more brain bleach? I don't think I have anywhere near enough.

Awww don't do that. You're just going gay for Wario because he's so super-sexy and manly.

The Nameless Wanderer · Jun 30, 2009

Hoping that Wario will be the next fad <_<.

Wondering also on why Pit is where he is.

Nidtendofreak · Jun 30, 2009

da K.I.D. said:
I am personally getting san transport to SNES. that will proly be his next tournament

Yays!

Now we just have to hope he's not rusty...

Nanaki · Jun 30, 2009

The Nameless Wanderer said:
Hoping that Wario will be the next fad <_<.

Wondering also on why Pit is where he is.

Wario isn't a fad - he never goes out of style.

...are you thinking Pit should be higher or lower? He's a bit below where the tournament results put him, but some people :

ough Dark.pch cough:: think he should be lower still.

Supermodel From Paris · Jun 30, 2009

Oh yeah, and I think zamus has what it takes to go up a bit possibly, as much as I disagree with a lot of Supermodel's pseudo bias, she does have some wicked metagame tricks.

I'm not biased just because I think she's great.

It isn't like I'm above playing a character I think is a piece of ****. For a while I was going to main CF, but changed my mind after watching some ZSS videos. And if I mained CF now, I'd still think he was a piece of ****.

DMG · Jun 30, 2009

PhantomX said:
Pretty sure the ugliest person in that strip is Kirby.

Indeed, Kirby needs a better dental plan.

adumbrodeus said:
...

Can somebody please get me something to claw out my eyes and more brain bleach? I don't think I have anywhere near enough.

Stare into Wario's eyes long enough and your soul will be crushed into tiny pieces, which will grow and evolve into gold coins and treasure. Only then will Wario show his true love for you.

Nestec · Jun 30, 2009

Spadefox said:
Thing is, he has so many problems to fight against, what with him having noone playing him, especially not top players, thus having no tournament results. Add in many many misconceptions, trouble he has with a certain fat penguin and several other stuff like high learning curve and him being a very unappealing character in general and you'll get a character noone wants to play.

But shouldn't that account for Bowser's placement? I mean, if he's not doing well in the current metagame, be it crappy match-ups or even just lack of popularity, shouldn't he DESERVE a much lower spot?
It can't be fair to just say, "Bowser has so much potential, he's just ugly/unpopular, so let's ignore his tourney placements."
I don't mean to hate on Bowser at all, but he has poor tournament results, TOO BAD, he does not deserve to be so high because of it, regardless of WHY he has poor results. A great part of tier placement is being able compete, and Bowser has not proven that he can, so why should he deserve to be above one-third of the cast?

:/

ShadowLink84 · Jun 30, 2009

dr.mario guy said:
Stare into Wario's eyes long enough and your soul will be crushed into tiny pieces, which will grow and evolve into gold coins and treasure. Only then will Wario show his true love for you.

I have no regrets falcon punching Wario.

da K.I.D. · Jun 30, 2009

Nidtendofreak said:
Yays!

Now we just have to hope he's not rusty...

ill make sure hes in top form

Nestec said:
But shouldn't that account for Bowser's placement? I mean, if he's not doing well in the current metagame, be it crappy match-ups or even just lack of popularity, shouldn't he DESERVE a much lower spot?
It can't be fair to just say, "Bowser has so much potential, he's just ugly/unpopular, so let's ignore his tourney placements."
I don't mean to hate on Bowser at all, but he has poor tournament results, TOO BAD, he does not deserve to be so high because of it, regardless of WHY he has poor results. A great part of tier placement is being able compete, and Bowser has not proven that he can, so why should he deserve to be above one-third of the cast?

:/

i have to agree with this

people can say bowser is/ will be good allday but until we see it in the tourneys, why should we believe it or take it into account

adumbrodeus · Jun 30, 2009

Nestec said:
But shouldn't that account for Bowser's placement? I mean, if he's not doing well in the current metagame, be it crappy match-ups or even just lack of popularity, shouldn't he DESERVE a much lower spot?
It can't be fair to just say, "Bowser has so much potential, he's just ugly/unpopular, so let's ignore his tourney placements."
I don't mean to hate on Bowser at all, but he has poor tournament results, TOO BAD, he does not deserve to be so high because of it, regardless of WHY he has poor results. A great part of tier placement is being able compete, and Bowser has not proven that he can, so why should he deserve to be above one-third of the cast?

:/

No.

Tier lists are based on a character's ability.

Tournament results are an ILLUSTRATION of that ability, but not the only one.

dr.mario guy said:
Stare into Wario's eyes long enough and your soul will be crushed into tiny pieces, which will grow and evolve into gold coins and treasure. Only then will Wario show his true love for you.

No, I crush sousl!

Wario's a biter, I'm gonna pop a cap in his b**** ***.

Also, ewww, just ewww.

Nestec · Jun 30, 2009

adumbrodeus said:
No.

Tier lists are based on a character's ability.

Tournament results are an ILLUSTRATION of that ability, but not the only one.

Claims of Bowser's ability really aren't that credible when there is no actual PROOF of it. If Bowser can't illustrate his ability via tourney results, then how else can he?

It's the exact same reason why characters like Mario and Ness will never get out of Low Tier anytime soon.

da K.I.D. · Jun 30, 2009

once again, I must agree with nextec. I feel the exact same way

Nanaki · Jun 30, 2009

Nestec said:
Claims of Bowser's ability really aren't that credible when there is no actual PROOF of it. If Bowser can't illustrate his ability via tourney results, then how else can he?

It's the exact same reason why characters like Mario and Ness will never get out of Low Tier anytime soon.

Tournament results are not the final say in a tier list placement. If they were, why would you even make a tier list instead of just using tournament records?

-D3 has been consistently 3rd in tourney results, but is 6th on the current tier list.
-Falco has usually been B rank in tourney results (7th or lower) but has never been lower than 5th on a tier list (he had a short period of glory where he was 3rd in tourney rankings).

It's pretty easy to see that Bowser has big potential and good matchups with some high tiers (a quite good MK matchup being the biggest draw), he's just horribly unpopular (D3 smallstep probably has a small something to do with that). Popularity should not play a role in a tier list, though.

da K.I.D. · Jun 30, 2009

getting comboed from 0-**** by sheik, pikachu, ZSS, and ICs doesnt stop people from playing fox

at some point you have to admit that people arent playing bowser because he is bad

adumbrodeus · Jun 30, 2009

Nestec said:
Claims of Bowser's ability really aren't that credible when there is no actual PROOF of it. If Bowser can't illustrate his ability via tourney results, then how else can he?

Honestly, our tournament results rating system sucks, so it doesn't really illustrate anything anyway. It realistically has no way to account for simple volume of one group, as a perfect statistical illustration of this...

23% of the US population smokes. 36.3% of the US population gets cardiovascular disease. 58.333...% of smokers get cardiovascular disease.

So let's switch those numbers to account for smokers vs. non-smokers.

Since 58.333...% of smokers get cardiovascular disease, and smokers are 23 percent of the population, that means that 13.4% of cardiovascular disease cases are smokers, which means that 22.9% of cardiovascular disease cases are non-smokers.

Our population is 304,059,724, so that means that...

Nonsmokers who get cardiovascular disease: 69,629,676.796

Smokers who get cardiovascular disease: 40,744,003.016

So, obviously, if we wanna not get heart disease, by Brawl logic, we should all take up smoking, right?

(note the statistic I used based it on "heavy smokers", so the actual number is somewhat lower, but that would actually improve my point, since it means that more cases of cardiovascular disease are non-smokers, making the difference starker)

You know what, after this, I really wanna talk to Ankoku,the current ranking system does show dominance and centralization, but another category that shows character chosen vs. results would be much more important for tier lists.

da K.I.D. said:
once again, I must agree with nextec. I feel the exact same way

I respect you, but please don't, our ranking system phails statistics forever.

Nestec · Jun 30, 2009

scorptile34 said:
It's pretty easy to see that Bowser has big potential and good matchups with some high tiers (a quite good MK matchup being the biggest draw), he's just horribly unpopular (D3 smallstep probably has a small something to do with that). Popularity should not play a role in a tier list, though.

But WHY is he unpopular? I fail to believe that it's just because he's not flashy, or that he's ugly.

Not that I'm trying to argue that characters like Yoshi need to be higher, but Bowser is not the only one who "has big potential and good match-ups with some high tiers". I see characters who do as bad as Bowser (in fact, even better) in tournies, and some of those characters can be argued for in the same fashion. Yoshi is even said to have a decent match-up against MK, and it can't be significantly worse than Bowser's match-up with MK.

EDIT:
@ Adumbrodeus:
Okay, even if our ranking system fails, it can still be used to judge Bowser, no? Everyone else is judged by the exact same ranking system. If we simply say that it doesn't effectively illustrate Bowser at all, then the entire thing loses almost ALL worth...

Shadow13 · Jun 30, 2009

Bowser could be unpopular because of his suckage in Melee, or his low (and getting lower) tier placement. Bowser also isn't the easiest character to pick up as a main.

adumbrodeus · Jul 1, 2009

Nestec said:
@ Adumbrodeus:
Okay, even if our ranking system fails, it can still be used to judge Bowser, no? Everyone else is judged by the exact same ranking system. If we simply say that it doesn't effectively illustrate Bowser at all, then the entire thing loses almost ALL worth...

Pretty much, at least for this sort of discussion, it loses all worth because the methodology is useless for ranking characters in terms of ability.

It's best used for talking about overcentralization, aka technique bans and the like.

Nestec · Jul 1, 2009

Shadow13 said:
Bowser could be unpopular because of his suckage in Melee, or his low (and getting lower) tier placement. Bowser also isn't the easiest character to pick up as a main.

Ya, but that's no excuse to give him special treatment.

adumbrodeus said:
Pretty much, at least for this sort of discussion, it loses all worth because the methodology is useless for ranking characters in terms of ability.

Well then it all should boil down specifically to character potential/ability, which is far too difficult to accurately determine...
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are many who will argue that Mario, Ike, Ness, and Yoshi have NEAR-equal character potential in the current metagame as Bowser does.

san. · Jul 1, 2009

da K.I.D. said:
ill make sure hes in top form

i have to agree with this

people can say bowser is/ will be good allday but until we see it in the tourneys, why should we believe it or take it into account

I wish the first statement would be true.

Even though bowser may be better than his tourney results, what is there that is stopping the capable ones from turning the hypothetical results into reality?

Shadow13 · Jul 1, 2009

Maybe more people should use lower tier characters and main them.

Nestec · Jul 1, 2009

^ ^ That alone won't get the job done.

san3711 said:
Even though bowser may be better than his tourney results, what is there that is stopping the capable ones from turning the hypothetical results into reality?

Fatass named Dedede

deepseadiva · Jul 1, 2009

Shadow13 said:
Maybe more people should use lower tier characters and main them.

The obvious obstacle is that people enjoy winning.

Shadow13 · Jul 1, 2009

Yeah, but lower tier characters don't get used as much so chances of them getting good tourney placements are even lower.

Nanaki · Jul 1, 2009

Nestec said:
But WHY is he unpopular? I fail to believe that it's just because he's not flashy, or that he's ugly.

Not that I'm trying to argue that characters like Yoshi need to be higher, but Bowser is not the only one who "has big potential and good match-ups with some high tiers". I see characters who do as bad as Bowser (in fact, even better) in tournies, and some of those characters can be argued for in the same fashion. Yoshi is even said to have a decent match-up against MK, and it can't be significantly worse than Bowser's match-up with MK.

EDIT:
@ Adumbrodeus:
Okay, even if our ranking system fails, it can still be used to judge Bowser, no? Everyone else is judged by the exact same ranking system. If we simply say that it doesn't effectively illustrate Bowser at all, then the entire thing loses almost ALL worth...

-He's easy to combo. If you're not able to keep your cool, it's easy to quickly lose it with him.
-People generalize and misconceive him as 'slow'. In fighting games, 'slow' is usually bad.
-He's not terribly easy to learn.
-You have to completely avoid using certain moves, or you'll be punished beyond belief.
-Doesn't have a truly safe spammable move.
-Doesn't have a true projectile.
-Doesn't have a sword.
-Doesn't have a 'go to' approach option.
-Has a 'dead zone' below him, making it somewhat easier for him to be juggled.
-Requires good spacing to be effective.
-Not effective at playing aggressively.
-Grab release isn't 100% guaranteed to release on ground - you actually may have to think.
-No flashy combos.
-Is a 'bad guy', whatever that's worth.

These are things that people often look for in a prospective character. At first glance, he's not terribly appealing. If not many people are initially inclined to play him, he won't pick up many mains quickly, and will therefore be unpopular.

If you look beyond these and find his good qualities, he's a pretty solid character. It's that line of thinking that gives him his position in the tier list, I think.

Edit: Forgot the obvious 'Gets infinited by a top tier character' and 'Is "ugly"'

adumbrodeus · Jul 1, 2009

Nestec said:
Well then it all should boil down specifically to character potential/ability, which is far too difficult to accurately determine...
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there are many who will argue that Mario, Ike, Ness, and Yoshi have NEAR-equal character potential in the current metagame as Bowser does.

1 word, match-ups. (hyphenating it counts)

Also, Mario is better. Mario players just need to get that ****ing cape teleport down.

deepseadiva · Jul 1, 2009

Shadow13 said:
Yeah, but lower tier characters don't get used as much so chances of them getting good tourney placements are even lower.

They wouldn't get good placings anyway. Most of them kinda suck.

Nestec · Jul 1, 2009

scorptile34 said:
These are things that people often look for in a prospective character. At first glance, he's not terribly appealing. If not many people are initially inclined to play him, he won't pick up many mains quickly, and will therefore be unpopular.

If you look beyond these and find his good qualities, he's a pretty solid character. It's that line of thinking that gives him his position in the tier list, I think.

The same can be said about almost all the low tier characters. Bowser has nothing that is apalling enough to separate him from the low tiers (in terms of character ability). His "ZOMG heavyweight hard to kill" is just as useful as Ness' quick-kill B-throw. Yet, flaws in his gameplay keep him down there. The same should be said for Bowser.

adumbrodeus said:
Also, Mario is better. Mario players just need to get that ****ing cape teleport down.

See, that's what I mean though. If Mario is better AND is "evidently" doing better in tournaments (using quotation marks given the tourney system's flawedness, XP), why the heck is he below Bowser??

Deleted member · Jul 1, 2009

But are there ANY bowsers placing with good players?

stingers · Jul 1, 2009

Vex is pretty decent...

Nanaki · Jul 1, 2009

Nestec said:
The same can be said about almost all the low tier characters. Bowser has nothing that is apalling enough to separate him from the low tiers (in terms of character ability). His "ZOMG heavyweight hard to kill" is just as useful as Ness' quick-kill B-throw. Yet, flaws in his gameplay keep him down there. The same should be said for Bowser.

Most of the low tiers below Bowser have something that's instantly appealing about them, whether it's an actual 'good' quality or not. The rest are just...bad.

Can I ask exactly which characters you think belong above Bowser and why? It would be easier to express my opinion that way.

adumbrodeus · Jul 1, 2009

Nestec said:
See, that's what I mean though. If Mario is better AND is "evidently" doing better in tournaments (using quotation marks given the tourney system's flawedness, XP), why the heck is he below Bowser??

2 reasons.

1. Nobody has any clue what cape teleport is. It's one of the most powerful ATs in the game. Unfortunately, it's also a truly hard AT, and none of the current mario mains have mastered it yet.

2. People still place faith in tournament results.

Currently talking about it with Ankoku, I think we've got a solution.

deepseadiva · Jul 1, 2009

adumbrodeus said:
1. Nobody has any clue what cape teleport is. It's one of the most powerful ATs in the game. Unfortunately, it's also a truly hard AT, and none of the current mario mains have mastered it yet.

Would you mind explaining/linking whatever this is? I haven't ever heard of it. Sounds interesting.

Morrigan · Jul 1, 2009

You mean that AT that kills Metaknight die when using that move he never uses?

The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

Smash Hero

Uhh... Look at my status.

WarioMan

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

Smash Master

King of Hug Style

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

Smash Legend

Smash Ace

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero

Smash Journeyman

Smash Ace

Bodybuilding Magical Girl

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Legend

Bodybuilding Magical Girl

Smash Ace

Deleted member

Guest

Smash Obsessed

Smash Lord

Smash Legend

Bodybuilding Magical Girl

/!\<br>\¡/

Information

Network