Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

Juggleguy · Jul 5, 2009

I agree that the Sheik/Falcon matchup is extremely momentum-based, and I also agree that it just takes a trick or two to land that first hit on Sheik. I have trouble with some of these, though, for example the immediate raptor boost after a tech. G-Reg in particular is great at escaping Sheik's tech chases and reversing momentum this way. Is it just a matter of practicing the timing through repetition?

g-regulate · Jul 5, 2009

i mean, the sheik can get you with something on every option, so you just gotta mix up your choices. i played with tope a lot so yea i got lots of practice.

Cosmo! · Jul 5, 2009

good **** g-reg

The Irish Mafia · Jul 5, 2009

Just Nair more

**** this I'm gonna go practice for genesis

Cia · Jul 5, 2009

g-regulate said:
falcons worst matchups by far are fox/falco. good falcons can **** fox/falcos if they are experienced and can finish combos, but in terms of the games physics, fox/falco just has nearly infinite options when it comes to comboing falcon to death, . spiking shining and aerial priority can overwhelm falcon's defense to a degree. grab combos rely on tech chasing (if they DI correctly), so you really have to focus and finish combos to have a chance at winning. they are the only thing close enough to be called a counter, IMO, although they really arent if you are just good.

sheik can be bad if she is camping really hard, smart shieks can really limit falcons approach, but all it takes is a simple trick or two to land a couple hits and a grab, and then the **** can ensue from there. grab combos and ledge games on sheik absolutely destroy her, just gotta get that opening.

just dont go off the stage or get hit in the air against marth. once you do that, just grab and ****.

does anyone really have trouble vs peach still??!?!? should be a no brainer.

dair and bair ICs. all match. dont land close to them, just driveby bairs and dairs.

any other matchup should be disgusting **** with just simple grab/dair/uair to knee combos. you should probably win just solely kneeing all match.

^ Best post thus far. listen to g-reg

Scar · Jul 5, 2009

g-reg is right

matchups i still hate:
fox
falco
sheik
marth
peach
dittos
jigglypuff
ICs
low tiers

edit: also g-reg have you read the OP of this thread b/c i just re-read it and it a) is brilliant and b) was made as sort of an homage to you

Juggleguy · Jul 5, 2009

Scar said:
matchups i still hate:
jigglypuff

agreed !

Cia · Jul 5, 2009

would you guys still main CF if he had Jigglypuff's move set/ mechanics?

lolz

Da Shuffla · Jul 5, 2009

WOPing with the Knee would be pretty sweet.

Mogwai · Jul 5, 2009

DrewB008 said:
like 90% of low tiers say falcon is their best high tier matchup

these people are idiots. Falcon horrifically ***** all low tiers on all stages except for Pikachu on FD and even that's not that bad.

Teczer0 · Jul 5, 2009

g-regulate said:
falcons worst matchups by far are fox/falco. good falcons can **** fox/falcos if they are experienced and can finish combos, but in terms of the games physics, fox/falco just has nearly infinite options when it comes to comboing falcon to death, . spiking shining and aerial priority can overwhelm falcon's defense to a degree. grab combos rely on tech chasing (if they DI correctly), so you really have to focus and finish combos to have a chance at winning. they are the only thing close enough to be called a counter, IMO, although they really arent if you are just good.

sheik can be bad if she is camping really hard, smart shieks can really limit falcons approach, but all it takes is a simple trick or two to land a couple hits and a grab, and then the **** can ensue from there. grab combos and ledge games on sheik absolutely destroy her, just gotta get that opening.

just dont go off the stage or get hit in the air against marth. once you do that, just grab and ****.

does anyone really have trouble vs peach still??!?!? should be a no brainer.

dair and bair ICs. all match. dont land close to them, just driveby bairs and dairs.

any other matchup should be disgusting **** with just simple grab/dair/uair to knee combos. you should probably win just solely kneeing all match.

Can I subscribe to your posts?

g-regulate · Jul 5, 2009

people just say that because falcon is super easy to juggle/combo, and can be pretty easy to edgeguard. none of them can really compare to falcons offensive output, though.

i forgot about jiggs!! dont be aggressive vs good jiggs. bide your time and beat him at his own spacing games. uair if he floats too high/much, and grab at any good opportunity. dthrow/stomp knee is your best friend.

Mogwai · Jul 5, 2009

g-regulate said:
people just say that because falcon is super easy to juggle/combo, and can be pretty easy to edgeguard. none of them can really compare to falcons offensive output, though.

yea, I think people get this opinion from ****** crappy Falcons. everyone has good combos on Falcon cause he's a fast faller and everyone ***** his recovery because it blows, but once you play a Falcon with a head on their shoulders, you just get your **** packed in with low tiers as every stock ends in a demoralizing death combo that your ****ty character could do absolutely nothing about...

g-regulate · Jul 5, 2009

falcon. the most fun to play as, AND against.

Mogwai · Jul 5, 2009

I'd probably give the against one to Ganon, actually, but Falcon's definitely top 3 to play against.

P.C. Jona · Jul 5, 2009

ganon ***** your bird

Mogwai · Jul 5, 2009

P.C. Jona said:
ganon ***** your bird

Roneblaster · Jul 6, 2009

Hi Scar, Greg, Big D, and any other falcon player whos better than me and may take pity on me and bless me with their knowledge.

Need advice about facing a luigi. This guy and I go about 50/50 i have more tech skill than he does but i just dont know what alot.

the only things i know to do are slow fall my stomps to avoid the spotdodge and upair, but i never seem to find a great time to upair.

edit

and btw will a big name Falcon player please message PEEF/Rich Wheeler and tell him that falco is a bad matchup for falcon, he doesnt think its a bad matchup.

DrewB008 · Jul 6, 2009

uair them after theyre above you, so after you land those stomps or you can throw to uairs

you gotta space your uairs somewhat cause luigis nair is really good, its an unusual thing to do but youll be able to do it if you think about it

jump out and stomp him occasionally for a crowd pleasing/effective edgeguard, he'll meteor cancel with up b and go straight up then die

falco is hard for falcon but until falcos get really good at consistent spacing etc. they'll die to knees at like 45% when you just throw them out, until relatively recently he was my favorite to fight between fox sheik and falco. but yeah falco definitely has the advantage

skyheart · Jul 6, 2009

ohhhh boiiiii!

KAOSTAR · Jul 6, 2009

Luigi is a ****ing monster.

REally what you need to watch out for his is double (if Ka triple) aerials. Because he can sh an attack make sure he lands b4 u go for the grab.

to **** luigi you need to bait grabs and down throw followed by uairs. Its a little bit harder to finish with the knee because luigi recovers from hitstun very quickly so knee when ur sure it will hit.

Hes a floaty so same rules apply but just be careful of his offense and ground speed. Watch out for jab to grab and WD downsmash.

Other than that you need to stay low to the ground and space nairs and get grabs off. Stomp to knee at mid to lower percents and stomp to uair at higher ones. Try to get him off the stage and backair his luigi missile when he attempts to come back.

Just be patient and wait for opportunity. Luigi seems to have different timings than other matchups. He leaves openings like anyone else but if u dont kno the luigi u will miss them. Dash dance and shield all of the aerials and punish after the barrage.

Leviathan741 · Jul 6, 2009

Hello again. Lol I know I posted a few videos a few weeks ago but I have some more. My Cf versus my bro's marth. He actually does the ken combo and recovery and annoying stuff like that so its challenging at times. Anyways please rate my falcon again. I have gotten somewhat better I think. Lol I was complaining about how hard it is to shuffle the nairs but i do it easily now! Uairs.. ugh not so much. anyways just rate him. please. This time they are just 2 sets and are shorter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckSpFcMsah0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxfEXBZDbCE

The Irish Mafia · Jul 6, 2009

Luigi is my least favorite matchup in the game. His nair comes out in 2 frames, does 15 damage, pops you straight up, and has priority over every move ever. It's the win button. It comes down to how many nairs you can throw out, and then combo into knee. Dthrow is your friend.

@Cfal: Uhh, don't side b as much, really. I can't think of much else. Most of the problems in your playstyle will be smoothed over by experience.

Roneblaster · Jul 6, 2009

thanks guys, and yeah big d i do sometimes do that flashy stomp while hes charging his missile, and your right he meteor cancels it but luigis up+b is straight up so he dies!

thumbswayup · Jul 6, 2009

I hate fighting the plumbers, they're the most annoying things ever. I play Boss all the time and still have no idea what to do.

Mogwai · Jul 6, 2009

The Irish Mafia said:
Luigi is my least favorite matchup in the game. His nair comes out in 2 frames,

don't make up frame data! it would be simply absurd for Luigi's nair to come out on frame 2! it actually comes out on frame 3

skyheart · Jul 6, 2009

thumbs, that's cause you aren't analyzing enough, AIM

thumbswayup · Jul 6, 2009

skyheart said:
thumbs, that's cause you aren't analyzing enough, AIM

I'm at work

g-regulate · Jul 6, 2009

mario and luigi THINK they have really good priority. falcon's priority actually beats theirs with some spacing.

fun trick on luigi's that just spam nair to get out of combos: stand just under then and charge fsmash/dsmash, let them fall into it. works great with fox uthrow, just charge usmash and let them fall in lol.

Mogwai · Jul 6, 2009

g-regulate said:
mario and luigi THINK they have really good priority. falcon's priority actually beats theirs with some spacing.

semantics again...

you're not actually beating their priority if it requires spacing, instead, you're outspacing them, they're different things.

but of course you're right, the key to making Mario bros look stupid with Falcon is to just space your **** and there's nothing they can do about the fact that your aerials have about three times the range of theirs.

TresChikon · Jul 6, 2009

Falcon is ridiculously easy to edge guard, but his wall hugging abilities make wall teching stuff like Marth's f smash and fox d smash easy, but how do u tech something that takes a long time like Pikachu's F smash or ganon's stomp?

g-regulate · Jul 6, 2009

dont tell me how to word correctly

Milos · Jul 6, 2009

TresChikon said:
Falcon is ridiculously easy to edge guard, but his wall hugging abilities make wall teching stuff like Marth's f smash and fox d smash easy, but how do u tech something that takes a long time like Pikachu's F smash or ganon's stomp?

what i do is i press L/R before i get hit, and then use the OD hitlag to smashDI into the ledge

it works most of the time, it's a fairly large window if you concentrate.

shiz told me this is the best way to tech marth's counter with spacies as well

KAOSTAR · Jul 6, 2009

Milos said:
what i do is i press L/R before i get hit, and then use the OD hitlag to smashDI into the ledge

it works most of the time, it's a fairly large window if you concentrate.

shiz told me this is the best way to tech marth's counter with spacies as well

for the most part thats the only way to tech anything instantly. You cant tech during hitlag or activate a tech by hitting l or R. You have to hit it b4 within 20 frames i think. u cant tech for the next 40 frames from hitting l or R if u miss the tech.

just knowing that should help with timing. Also you have to smash Di into the stage and auto smash DI is the frame when you tech. You cant tech during smash DI only autosmash(last frame of hitstun)

Milos · Jul 6, 2009

butttttt

my point still stands

thanks for the clarification. i love taking advantage of the good ol' 40 frame rule, mad useful for jab reset mindgames bahahaha

Aussierob123 · Jul 6, 2009

Peach is supposed to be a no brainer?

I guess I have no idea how to handle this matchup. I camp like crazy dash dancing and jumping around trying to bait them to do something, and it sometimes works but other times I just get smacked and repeatedly banged around the stage until I'm on like 90% or lost a stock. So frustrating.

Any tips to handling this matchup? This matchup and jiggs are the last matchups i need to know before I can safely say that I am CAPABLE of winning most matchups.

TresChikon · Jul 7, 2009

KAOSTAR said:
for the most part thats the only way to tech anything instantly. You cant tech during hitlag or activate a tech by hitting l or R. You have to hit it b4 within 20 frames i think. u cant tech for the next 40 frames from hitting l or R if u miss the tech.

just knowing that should help with timing. Also you have to smash Di into the stage and auto smash DI is the frame when you tech. You cant tech during smash DI only autosmash(last frame of hitstun)

so what if the hit lasts more than 20 frames? or is there no hit that lags that long?

Zephyr · Jul 7, 2009

There's no hit that lags that long. The closest attack I can think of is Samus' charge shot, and I don't think it hits the 20 frame mark.

KAOSTAR · Jul 7, 2009

TresChikon said:
so what if the hit lasts more than 20 frames? or is there no hit that lags that long?

Then it would literally be untechable not from properties of the move but simple from frame data and there being a lack of a possibility. This will not happen. The more hit lag a move has the more inputs of smash DI u can enter to influence your trajectory.

1 frame of hitlag allows for 1 input of smash DI and you get one ASDI input the frame after hitlag.

BUT I believe Samus's charge shot has the highest amount of hit lag lasting 18 frames.(might be 16). Which would give allow you 19 inputs of DI.

Some untechable moves I can think of off the top that arent status changing moves or count as throws (disable, confusion, sing, cape) are m2s downsmash, fsmash and foxs dair. Those cannot be teched instantly or double stick teched but can be teched upon landing. You cannot ledge tech foxs dair tho while m2s smashes can be.

Milos said:
butttttt

my point still stands

thanks for the clarification. i love taking advantage of the good ol' 40 frame rule, mad useful for jab reset mindgames bahahaha

Yea, I wasnt refuting what u were saying only trying to add some valueable info to the discussion. Alot of ppl miss techs and dont know why. Once I learned this it helped me tech much more often, and gave me knowledge to double stick tech without it being an accident.

PEEF! · Jul 7, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTUyB9xxZGg

Help/Critique my falcon? I don't want to be an *** and start a new thread so I'll just ask here.
I have been playing for about 4.5 months. No insults please =[ Just looking to improve. Thanks.

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