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Improve your grab game! ~~ I think the formula is correct?

SuSa

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The formula was wrong and I will update this thread when we get the correct formula. Sorry everyone.

But because EY is awesome, have some frame data for pummels while I wait for the formula:

I'm Finally done.

Pummel duration until the first IASA frame
:metaknight: 35
:snake: 26
:wario: 23
:falco: 21
:diddy: 22
:dedede: 31
:marth: 21
:gw: 35
:pikachu2: 24
:olimar:
Red 24
Blue 24
Yellow 25
Purple 27
White 23
:popo: 20
:rob: 25
:kirby2: 15
:lucario: 12!
:zerosuitsamus: 21
:toonlink: 21
:pit: 25
:dk2: 21
:peach: 23
:luigi2: 34
:fox: 16
:wolf: 19
:sonic: 23
:shiek: 32
:bowser2: 33
:zelda: 33
:charizard: 31
:squirtle: 26
:ivysaur: 32
:ike: 30
:lucas: 24
:mario2: 32
:ness2: 17
:yoshi2: 22
:samus2: 15
:jigglypuff: 28
:falcon: 24
:link2: 20
:ganondorf: 34

So Basically,

S Rank: :lucario:

A Rank: :kirby2::samus2::fox::ness2::wolf:

B Rank: :link2::popo::dk2::zerosuitsamus::toonlink::marth::falco:

C Rank::yoshi2::diddy::peach::sonic::lucas::falcon::wario::pikachu2:

D Rank::olimar::pit::rob::snake::squirtle:

E Rank: :jigglypuff::ike::charizard::dedede::shiek::ivysaur::mario2:

F Rank: :bowser2::zelda::luigi2::ganondorf::gw::metaknight:
Interesting how the best character has the slowest pummel.
 

demonictoonlink

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There is no way to do this without frame-by-frame technology, is there?
I have homebrew and I heard about some type of Frame-by-frame hack. Would this work?
If so, I would love to help. (I'd do TL and Link)
 

SuSa

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There is no way to do this without frame-by-frame technology, is there?
I have homebrew and I heard about some type of Frame-by-frame hack. Would this work?
If so, I would love to help. (I'd do TL and Link)
Yes, that would work. Also the testing is very minimal. You grab, you press A once. Then you wait until the end frame. While counting the frames.

You then pummel, and enter a pummel input on each frame to see if there are any IASA frames. If so you shall pummel again sooner then you ended. You count the frames while you do this.

Then you are done for the most part. I'm sure you can think on how to test what frame during the pummel someone will be air released (simply break out on a specific frame, which can be much easier if someone finds a grab formula for me) then find if you can throw during the IASA frame (99% sure you can, just needs to be tested once)

I'll see what I can do about digging up the 2 codes you'll need for you.
EDIT:
Sorry, just ask the Brawl+ community for it, I can't find the codes for the life of me. -_- Illiniliax should be able to help you, send him a message.
 

SuSa

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Also if you could get the grab release formula I'd love you. But that's a lot of work. :(

How to test for it:

1. Grab at 0%, do not input anything. Wait for release. Count frames until release.
2. Grab at 0%, input 1 input in any 1 frame. Wait for release. Count frames until release.

Repeat steps 1 and 2 for 5%

Find frame differences.

If you can just give me the frames I could do the formula. <_<
 

ShadowLink84

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0% no pummel: released frame 90
0% 1 pummel: released frame 90

5% no pummel: released frame 100
5% 1 pummel: released frame 100

10% no pummel: released frame 108
10% with pummel: released frame 108

15% no pummel :released frame 118
15% 1 pummel: released frame 118

20% no pummel: released frame 126
20% with pummel: released frame 126

25% no pummel: released frame 134
25% pummel: released frame 134



Note1: Confirmed that pummels do not add or subtract frames. Even if the opponent is pummeled as late as possible, they will be released on that given frame.



Note2: Additional pummels do NOT add to the number of frames the opponent can be held.



Note 3: Even when the pummels cause the damage to go across the 5% barrier; where grab frames increase; the frames will not increase until AFTER the opponent is released.

example: Mario grabs samus frame 6. Pummels on frame 7, 47 and 67 for 8%. Samus will still be released on frame 90, even though she is at 8% damage.

This is the same for all percents afterwards.


Note 4: A pummel MUST be FULLY completed before the opponent can be air released. So if the opponent wants to be air released, it needs to be done during the cool down time BETWEEN pummels.



note 5: You can escape frame 18 at 0% when grabbed instead of getting out frame 90.
This confirms that each input decreases the frames you are held by 4 frames. Mash those buttons kiddies.


@Susa: Do you require the percentages up to 100%?
 

SuSa

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0% no pummel: released frame 90
0% 1 pummel: released frame 90

5% no pummel: released frame 100
5% 1 pummel: released frame 100

10% no pummel: released frame 108
10% with pummel: released frame 108

15% no pummel :released frame 118
15% 1 pummel: released frame 118

20% no pummel: released frame 126
20% with pummel: released frame 126

25% no pummel: released frame 134
25% pummel: released frame 134



Note1: Confirmed that pummels do not add or subtract frames. Even if the opponent is pummeled as late as possible, they will be released on that given frame.



Note2: Additional pummels do NOT add to the number of frames the opponent can be held.



Note 3: Even when the pummels cause the damage to go across the 5% barrier; where grab frames increase; the frames will not increase until AFTER the opponent is released.

example: Mario grabs samus frame 6. Pummels on frame 7, 47 and 67 for 8%. Samus will still be released on frame 90, even though she is at 8% damage.

This is the same for all percents afterwards.


Note 4: A pummel MUST be FULLY completed before the opponent can be air released. So if the opponent wants to be air released, it needs to be done during the cool down time BETWEEN pummels.



note 5: You can escape frame 18 at 0% when grabbed instead of getting out frame 90.
This confirms that each input decreases the frames you are held by 4 frames. Mash those buttons kiddies.


@Susa: Do you require the percentages up to 100%?


Neat to know that pummels don't add frames. But uhm... I meant the opponent trying to escape meaning for them to use 1-2 inputs to see if it shortens the time. :x


So formula is:
% = 1.8? frames (this is what I've gotten) or does it only increase every 5%?
Input = -4 frames

90 Frame base + % - Input

Now we just need pummel frame data. :)
 

SuSa

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I don't think I have anything better to do tomorrow. I guess I can swap Ex Brawl for Frame-by-Frame and start on frame data for pummels.

Once I get pummels, it's all subtraction and multiplication from there. :)

Assuming my 1.8 frames per % is correct.
 

SuSa

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Double check DK for me? Rather then adding to the data just try to find how many pummels you can get in at 10%, 30%, 50%, 70%. (Make sure you can still throw) with the opponent using 1 input every frame (to break out ASAP)

It'll let me know if I have it right.
 

Eternal Yoshi

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Is something wrong with SWF's servers? Cosmetically, it's acting very screwy lately.

Anyway, I'm ready to help now.
For Snake, his pummel(or choke) has an IASA frame for throwing or another one at frame 26.

Since I have this activated, I might as well do this for the cast since I have nothing better to do today.

Prepare for my list tonight.
 

SuSa

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Is something wrong with SWF's servers? Cosmetically, it's acting very screwy lately.

Anyway, I'm ready to help now.
For Snake, his pummel(or choke) has an IASA frame for throwing or another one at frame 26.

Since I have this activated, I might as well do this for the cast since I have nothing better to do today.

Prepare for my list tonight.
I love you. So Snake's pummel is 26 frames... time to do the formula.
 

Eternal Yoshi

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I'm Finally done.

Pummel duration until the first IASA frame
:metaknight: 35
:snake: 26
:wario: 23
:falco: 21
:diddy: 22
:dedede: 31
:marth: 21
:gw: 35
:pikachu2: 24
:olimar:
Red 24
Blue 24
Yellow 25
Purple 27
White 23
:popo: 20
:rob: 25
:kirby2: 15
:lucario: 12!
:zerosuitsamus: 21
:toonlink: 21
:pit: 25
:dk2: 21
:peach: 23
:luigi2: 34
:fox: 16
:wolf: 19
:sonic: 23
:shiek: 32
:bowser2: 33
:zelda: 33
:charizard: 31
:squirtle: 26
:ivysaur: 32
:ike: 30
:lucas: 24
:mario2: 32
:ness2: 17
:yoshi2: 22
:samus2: 15
:jigglypuff: 28
:falcon: 24
:link2: 20
:ganondorf: 34

So Basically,

S Rank: :lucario:

A Rank: :kirby2::samus2::fox::ness2::wolf:

B Rank: :link2::popo::dk2::zerosuitsamus::toonlink::marth::falco:

C Rank::yoshi2::diddy::peach::sonic::lucas::falcon::wario::pikachu2:

D Rank::olimar::pit::rob::snake::squirtle:

E Rank: :jigglypuff::ike::charizard::dedede::shiek::ivysaur::mario2:

F Rank: :bowser2::zelda::luigi2::ganondorf::gw::metaknight:
Interesting how the best character has the slowest pummel.
 

Eternal Yoshi

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If it was really 5, Wolf would use more pummels to do more damage in matches.
5 seems to be referring to the hitbox.

Yes. Meta is tied with G&W for the slowest pummel.
The White Pikmin does the most damage.
 

demonictoonlink

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I'm really sorry I couldn't help >__>
My Dad's best friend's cousin is dying so my dad is staying in the guest room (/computer room...)
The computer in my room doesn't even have an SD drive...Sorry again...
 

Eternal Yoshi

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That would mean Wolf would be able to inflict over 20% dps from pummeling LOL.

Any way, for reference, here is the grab escape formula for Melee.

M2K said:
The formula for escaping a grab (NOT special grabs, like Bowser's Koopa Klaw) is the following. The variables are, as you probably know, "t" = time(in frames) stuck in a grab, "b" = amount of times victim presses buttons to escape quicker, and "d" = damage of victim.

The formula is...

"t" = "1.6d" + 76 - "6b"

At 0%, without any usage of the analog stick or any buttons, it takes exactly 76 frames (1.26666...) to escape a grab. On average, every damage more an opponent receives, the time they're stuck in a grab is increased by 1.6 frames. Since the game doesn't have fractions of a frame, it goes like this for every 5% an opponent receieves(and then the process/pattern continues). +2 frames, +2 frames, +1 frame, + 2 frames, + 1 frame. That's how it works. I also found that every flash when Mew2 grabs you occurs exactly 24 frames apart(and the 1st one starts on the 3rd frame of the grab), which is the exact same speed as Falco's laser when it's shot on the ground rapidly(except for the 1st shot, which starts on frame 23). Also, here is a general list of what affects escaping a grab by how much.

-----Press A, B, L, R, X, Y, or Z - 6 frames is reduced from the time you'd be held in a grab.

-----Press The Analog stick in 1 of the 4 cardinal directions(angles don't count) - 6 frames is reduced from the time you're held in a grab (24 frames is reduced after 1 complete rotation of the analog stick, so 2 and 1/2 rotations reduces the time by 1 second).
 

SuSa

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Formula is similiar but I don't know the inputs = - frames for Brawl. I just know what I was told, -4 frames per input and it only goes on for so long (90 can be reduced to 18 in Brawl) and every 10% we can add 18 frames to that base time of 18 minimum.

My entire formula is wrong I think... anyone want to take a crack at it or test some of the characters pummels I have up?
 

Eternal Yoshi

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I'm done with frame stuff today, but I would recommend starting by counting how many frames a character is stuck in a grab before release when they aren't doing anything at 0%.

This is basically your base time.
 

Ray_Kalm

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I'm Finally done.

F Rank: :bowser2::zelda::luigi2::ganondorf::gw::metaknight:

Interesting how the best character has the slowest pummel.
And how the worst character has the second slowest pummel.

Meta Knight is finally bad at something?

Wolf's frame data must've been wrong in their frame data thread. They had 5....

Time to start plugging in... a lot.. of numbers.
Isn't this just the pummel speed, and not the grab-game itself?
 

J4pu

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which character is the first one (by order of the list) to have max speed pummels count as separate moves on the stale moves list? this would also let us know the number of frames needed to wait for chars with faster pummels to cause separate moves.
 

demonictoonlink

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I'm pretty sure all pummels count towards stale moves. Thanks for explaining his post!

Also, did you spell count **** on purpose? If not, that would be a really awesome error.

lol****
 

Polar Bear

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Thanks for the thread SuSa, I had done some pretty inaccurate testing on this so it's nice to some of this stuff.
 

SuSa

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I'm pretty sure all pummels count towards stale moves. Thanks for explaining his post!

Also, did you spell count **** on purpose? If not, that would be a really awesome error.

lol****
If you use Pit and time his pummels correct - it only counts as one slot in the stale move list.

IIRC you need to wait 7 frames, I am unsure if this changes between characters.

Also OP has been updated. :/ Sadly my formula... was wrong... I don't think there is actually a moment where pummels are ever guaranteed.... considering I was at 100% and my friend was only able to get 4 pummels with Lucario off... note that at 0% he is able to get 2 or 3 (I forgot what I had listed) according to my data, and well over 4 by 70%... I was at 100%....................

Therefore this means that inputs = -4 frames, but you can have multiple inputs on a frame. This means that if you are able to mash all the buttons fast enough (and rotate the analog stick) you are able to break out before most characters can pummel. This would mean you then need to find the number of inputs physically possible by a human being to find any form of accurate data.

What that means, is it's never truly guaranteed to get a pummel, except into ridiculous percents where there are so many frames to be rid of you will have time to pummel.
 

ShadowLink84

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You can have only one input per frame. I tried using multiple inputs within one frame and I break out the same amount of time.

Its possible that you simply missed an input or two and that is why he got 4 hits rather than just 3. fcoure I'll collect data for the other percents later to see if that aids in making the formula.

Plus the pummel doesnt have to hit remember? As long as the pummel animation begins, if you get out before it onnects, you still take the damage for it.
 
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