Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

Mattnumbers · Jul 11, 2009

SSBFalco said:
Well who can that possibly be? I know for a fact that I played SSB64 nonstop.

So then what's the problem with PK Flash? It's fine just the way it is now, what warrants a nerf?

Oh, I'm sorry did I ever say combo? *checks back* Gasp! I didn't! I said it LEADS into other things, namely fair and uair depending on DI. And I tested it myself, DIng away from Ness sets the opponent up for Fair or dash attack, maybe you need to learn how to follow up better.

Also, this isn't SSB64. If you go by that logic, we might as well give Ness his broken shieldbreaking DJCs back! I mean, that's how it was in SSB64, why should it be any different now? Better yet, let's remove airdodges since that wasn't in SSB64 either!

It doesn't really lead into anything either since they can just AD or do any attack. And I never said he should be like he was in 64, I merely referenced that that would be how it could be a move that edgeguards. Although Ness WAS awesome in SSB64, moreso than any game since imo.
The reason I would nerf the size of PK Flash is that since I'm calling for other buffs something has to be nerfed, and I think that's one of the most appropriate things.

EDIT: and I don't see how you think it leads into a dash attack at all, they are much to high off the ground for that to be possible.

CountKaiser · Jul 11, 2009

DI full away from Ness, and maybe you can get a fair off. Even then, I'm sure they can AD through it

SSBFalco · Jul 11, 2009

Matt2358 said:
It doesn't really lead into anything either since they can just AD or do any attack. And I never said he should be like he was in 64, I merely referenced that that would be how it could be a move that edgeguards. Although Ness WAS awesome in SSB64, moreso than any game since imo.
The reason I would nerf the size of PK Flash is that since I'm calling for other buffs something has to be nerfed, and I think that's one of the most appropriate things.

EDIT: and I don't see how you think it leads into a dash attack at all, they are much to high off the ground for that to be possible.

It does lead into things. They can't throw out just any attack since Ness has range and priority to his advantage, unless you're Marth or something, but I have yet to test that out. And the reason I said dash attack was a follow up was because if you predict the opponents AD, guess what you can do? Dash attack! Better yet, you might even be able to land a PK Fire, which might be possible with the less startup now.

Ness has a fine edgaurding tool that can kill in PK Flash, I don't see why we would need to trade it for Dsmash. Seems like a lose-lose situation to me.

grim mouser · Jul 11, 2009

Wander said:
Rocket ship noise?

The camera codes randomly make your Wii fire off a loud noise that sounds like a rocket launch.

Mattnumbers · Jul 11, 2009

SSBFalco said:
It does lead into things. They can't throw out just any attack since Ness has range and priority to his advantage, unless you're Marth or something, but I have yet to test that out. And the reason I said dash attack was a follow up was because if you predict the opponents AD, guess what you can do? Dash attack! Better yet, you might even be able to land a PK Fire, which might be possible with the less startup now.

Ness has a fine edgaurding tool that can kill in PK Flash, I don't see why we would need to trade it for Dsmash. Seems like a lose-lose situation to me.

At that point your just getting into player skill though.

And personally I would rather have two fairly good edgeguarders than one really good one.

SSBFalco · Jul 11, 2009

Regardless, my point still stands. Dthrow is not useless in the right hands.

Well right here we're just theorycrafting. I may think that without the bigger hitbox, PK Flash is just as useless as it always was, and that Dsmash will never have any use in edgaurding. We won't really know unless changes are made. Besides, Ness doesn't have just one good edgaurding move, he has plenty. Fair, Nair, Dair, and PK Thunder are also very reliable. Even Bair and PK Fire should not be underestimated (they're just decent, not great like the above).

Mattnumbers · Jul 11, 2009

SSBFalco said:
Regardless, my point still stands. Dthrow is not useless in the right hands.

Well right here we're just theorycrafting. I may think that without the bigger hitbox, PK Flash is just as useless as it always was, and that Dsmash will never have any use in edgaurding. We won't really know unless changes are made. Besides, Ness doesn't have just one good edgaurding move, he has plenty. Fair, Nair, Dair, and PK Thunder are also very reliable. Even Bair and PK Fire should not be underestimated (they're just decent, not great like the above).

I meant on-stage edgeguards. And I never said Dthrow is USELESS, it's just not very good.

Perfect Chaos · Jul 11, 2009

So people have been complaining about the new custom Stage Selection Screen (SSS), so I took a little time to come up with one.

I grouped them vertically by game franchise, and put the neutrals at the bottom of the screen (so it's closer to where the cursor is when you first enter the SSS). Then, as you go up on the page, the stage gets progressively more "non-neutral-like" (can't think of a better word at this moment). There may be some cases when Stage A is higher on the page than Stage B, but Stage A is more neutral than Stage B, but that's because I also grouped them by franchise, with the more neutral stage of each franchise taking location priority.
Also, I actually don't have the code for this (I'm not sure how the code works, so I'm not going to attempt editing the code myself). It's just a quick image edit that I did. Tell me what you think of it, and if enough people like it, maybe someone that knows the coding will put it together...

So without further ado:

SSBFalco · Jul 11, 2009

Matt2358 said:
I meant on-stage edgeguards. And I never said Dthrow is USELESS, it's just not very good.

I can't believe I completely forgot about this, but Ness's bat is now an AMAZING on-stage edgegaurding tool (just goes to show you how useful that move was before its buff)! With the Fsmash, I really don't see how Dsmash can be useful, but again, we never know.

D.B.K. · Jul 11, 2009

I definitely like that SSS better than the current one.

timothyung · Jul 11, 2009

Perfect Chaos, can you explain to me how to use the SSS code? I want to try making one myself. Your SSS seems to be better because it's not as "crowded" as the nightly SSS

5ive · Jul 11, 2009

I officially hate you guys for making Pika's down throw ******** :/. If you still choose to nerf it, might I suggest making the down throw similar to Falco's down throw. This still has tech-chase options, but still removes things like the chain grab while maintaining its usefulness.

Perfect Chaos · Jul 11, 2009

I already stated that I don't know how to tweak it myself. And this one actually has the same amount of stages as the Brawl+ one (34). Odd how it seems less "crowded"...

Mattnumbers · Jul 11, 2009

Chaos, what stages are in the "Melee Stages" section?

Nybb · Jul 11, 2009

FrozenPopo said:
...

the point being you'd still have to maneuver through the bag to hit me. thats the entire point of my complaint, that you have to maneuver around the bag. there shouldn't be a NEED to have to maneuver around the bag. the bag shouldn't even be a factor. the only important factor should be your opponent and what he's doing, not how i can use the sandbag to force an approach.

We should obviously get rid of the platforms on BF and Yoshi's Brawl stage because the force characters to manoeuvre around them. You shouldn't NEED to have to manoeuvre around the platforms. The platforms shouldn't even be a factor. The only important factor should be your opponent and what he's doing, not how I can use the platforms to force an approach.

SSBFalco said:
Also, this isn't SSB64. If you go by that logic, we might as well give Ness his broken shieldbreaking DJCs back! I mean, that's how it was in SSB64, why should it be any different now? Better yet, let's remove airdodges since that wasn't in SSB64 either!

Just for the record, Ness' DJC was in no way broken in 64. Most knowledgeable players consider him to be middle tier at best for a reason. It was easy to outrange his aerials if he had to approach you, and he didn't have a good project to force approaches. Then there is also the fact that every single character had guaranteed shieldbreaker combos (yes, even Samus).

I'm still trying to get my head around all the changes in this build. My initial reactions are THANK YOU so much for the Bowser throw buffs and for working on some of the sillier chainthrows. The Ness changes seem to be really solid so far. And the custom stage select is a great idea, although I would agree with the others in this thread that the layout is a bit odd. I like Perfect Chaos' layout idea though.

Perfect Chaos · Jul 11, 2009

Matt2358 said:
Chaos, what stages are in the "Melee Stages" section?

The same ones that are in the nightly build's "Melee" section. All I did was move around the images to give a suggestion of the way the stages can be arranged.

Shell · Jul 11, 2009

I think that although it looks pretty to have neutrals on top (Current Set), it's more convenient to have them right near the bottom where the cursor starts out, ala Perfect Chaos's SSS.

5ive · Jul 11, 2009

Don't ignore my comment from above please D=. I'm already mad enough that Pika got nerfed the day before a tournament; the last thing I need is that this issue be ignored.

I also think the Deadlands removal should be re thought. We want this to be a competitive based game right? Why remove a neutral? I would suggest to give both options on the stage select screen, whether it be replacing New Pork City with Deadlands or something comparable.

Shell · Jul 11, 2009

5ive, I think you've been around here long enough to know that we read everything on these forums.

I'm not sure exactly who made the Pika throw mod, but it was likely Cape. I'll see if he can't have another go at it. Otherwise, once the text is eventually released for this set you can give it a go yourself, too.

Also...

I was really intrigued by BBrawl's codes to hold such and such button to get this level set up (spear pillar). It'd be nifty to get a similar code to make the part of Port Town with three platforms selectable, or the cavern in the castle level selectable, or Luigi's Mansion with or without Mansion etc.

_clinton · Jul 11, 2009

I have mixed thoughts about Ness' buffs as well...

PK Flash have a use at least when it comes to the quick flash on it is nice IMO...so I'm ok on the size buff...although I agree with people saying that the move is kind of large...I'd rather have PK Flash have more KO power/damage than range though...so that they really want to avoid it (make that sucker kill at 30% instead of 60% lol ^_^ yeah maybe not that much...and yes...I don't think the range should be as much as it is now if you actually do buff the power)

What I'm saying is...I like people knowing they don't want to get hit by the move...and I want it to be more scary...a cool down buff is way better than a start up buff IMO though (I don't see why he needed the start up buff...it seems kind of pointless)

PSI Magnet has some issues with me...I don't really care about the auto cancel the way it is...if you are going to make it auto cancel you should make it kind of like Sonic's side special auto cancel...because the way it is now Ness loses his ability to stall his fall when he is recovering...which actually made his recovery even worse (even though you gave him a better zap jump option) IMO...the buff to start up is nice though...

I still am on the power up the bat with KO strength or speed group...however, I'm still testing my view on this power up...

PK Thunder, the dash attack, and Fair are all sweet...thank you...as for PK fire...I'd rather have it end faster...because the thing is still easy to get out of...

Samus' jab works so far...I haven't had any issues with it...and I see others have brought up Mario's issues as well...Falcon's Nair is cool I guess...

Also thanks for putting the music hack code in the set...that made my day ^_^ (Ico music in my Brawl!)

timothyung · Jul 11, 2009

OK, I think I understand how the SSS code works now, I'll try to make the code for Perfect Chaos' SSS

Perfect Chaos · Jul 11, 2009

Be careful of the custom music, though. My friend, Dai-A, has been using it a lot the past day, and he said he had SD Card trouble, recently; but he managed to fix it by re-formating the SD Card. I'm not too sure what happened, so if you want more details, ask him.

_clinton · Jul 11, 2009

Thanks for the info

CountKaiser · Jul 11, 2009

SD Cards are flash media. Flash media's lifespans are determined mainly by writes, not reads. As such, streaming music off of the SD card won't deteriorate it. Constantly saving things to it, though, will.

The average card has the lifespan of 10,000 writes before a bad sector pops up, and the flash media usually have something that spread out the writes to maximize the lifespan. As such, the card should last for a good while before it dies. You can tell that it's beginning to die if you get constant errors. At that point, reformatting is an option. If that doesn't work, it may very well be dead.

Just wanted to type that to clarify that streaming stuff off the card does not wear on it.

cobaltblue · Jul 11, 2009

Question: Is there any change shield regeneration will be slowed down? Right now it seems near impossible to break a shield as it regenerates to full in around 10 seconds. This imo leads to shield happy players instead of creativity in countering or dogging.

timothyung · Jul 11, 2009

I tried making Chao's SSS, but the ZZZZZZZ part is really confusing me. The stages are all in weird places.

Code:

RSBE01
Smash Bros Brawl (US)

Custom SSS V1.1[spunit262]
066B1E64 00000048
7F43D378 7F24CB78
480070E5 80180040
2C000002 41820010
2C030029 41820078
4800005C 4B9FD78D
2C030033 41810068
2C030028 41810048
2C030024 41810058
4800003C 60000000
046B1F04 4800002C
046B8F5C 7C802378
046B8F64 7C6300AE
040AF618 5460083C
040AF6AC 5463083C
040AF6C0 88030001
006B929C 00000022
066B99D8 00000022
0411091E 1B052108
170A1C24 22231D27
1603200D 250B1002
0C2F0E14 2800011A
150F0000 00000000
006B92A4 0000000A
066B9A58 0000000A
07121918 2F261F13
2A290000 00000000
06407AAC 00000062
ZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZ

ZZZZZZZZ: Fail

05051612 330A251F
221C0606 2B340909
1E180B0B 231D2F37
2C352D26 241E323A
1D170404 2A330E0E
30380C0C 15110303
0D0D3764 130F1915
2E3B0101 0202211B
1C161410 201A3139 
07071713 29321F19 
08080064 17131814

Someone please try to fix it

jalued · Jul 11, 2009

5ive said:
I officially hate you guys for making Pika's down throw ******** :/. If you still choose to nerf it, might I suggest making the down throw similar to Falco's down throw. This still has tech-chase options, but still removes things like the chain grab while maintaining its usefulness.

i agree that it is just too powerful now. u cant follow it up with anything anymore. please reduce the BKB slightly so its at least combo able at low%

proteininja · Jul 11, 2009

Here are my thoughts on the latest nightly after playing for several hours:

The Wifi Waiting Room will glitch out 50% of the time, and the camera will zoom in to the middle all the way. It also has invisible walls on the sides, and when you are struck you sort of slide around the edge of the screen. You can die up, but only at like 200%. I don't know why this happens, or to what it correlates.

Ness feels great, and is a beasticle. I love his physics, but didn't really try the "zap jump yet" if someone could explain it's usefullness and how exactly to do it I would greatly appreciate it. The new psi magnet was a change I anticipated greatly, and it is better than I had hoped.

I'm surprised you didn't touch peach's forward throw. Not for balance purposes, but for nostalgia's sake.

I'm liking the bowser throw changes.

The C. Falcon Nair buff is awesome. It really makes the move more useful for spacing and approaching.

The Yoshi side-b restoring double jump was a genius way of buffing yoshi without breaking the rules of foot stooling for only him.

Finally, I hate the new SSS and I could not figure out how to put wifi waiting room on random without getting 75m. I would love if the stages were seperated in such a way that I could close my I eyes on the first page move the cursor around, and not hate whatever stage I pick. Perhaps make a list of neutrals and counter picks, and put all of those on the front page. Then make it so all of the neutrals are set to random, and the counter picks are just selectable. Put all the crap stages(hannebow, 75m, etc) on the second page.

MK26 · Jul 11, 2009

Perfect Chaos said:
So people have been complaining about the new custom Stage Selection Screen (SSS), so I took a little time to come up with one.

I grouped them vertically by game franchise, and put the neutrals at the bottom of the screen (so it's closer to where the cursor is when you first enter the SSS). Then, as you go up on the page, the stage gets progressively more "non-neutral-like" (can't think of a better word at this moment). There may be some cases when Stage A is higher on the page than Stage B, but Stage A is more neutral than Stage B, but that's because I also grouped them by franchise, with the more neutral stage of each franchise taking location priority.
Also, I actually don't have the code for this (I'm not sure how the code works, so I'm not going to attempt editing the code myself). It's just a quick image edit that I did. Tell me what you think of it, and if enough people like it, maybe someone that knows the coding will put it together...

So without further ado:

Perfect Chaos said:
I already stated that I don't know how to tweak it myself. And this one actually has the same amount of stages as the Brawl+ one (34). Odd how it seems less "crowded"...

That looks cool...and btw, the Brawl one has 31 stages

timothyung said:

I tried making Chao's SSS, but the ZZZZZZZ part is really confusing me. The stages are all in weird places.

Code:

RSBE01
Smash Bros Brawl (US)

Custom SSS V1.1[spunit262]
066B1E64 00000048
7F43D378 7F24CB78
480070E5 80180040
2C000002 41820010
2C030029 41820078
4800005C 4B9FD78D
2C030033 41810068
2C030028 41810048
2C030024 41810058
4800003C 60000000
046B1F04 4800002C
046B8F5C 7C802378
046B8F64 7C6300AE
040AF618 5460083C
040AF6AC 5463083C
040AF6C0 88030001
006B929C 00000022
066B99D8 00000022
0411091E 1B052108
170A1C24 22231D27
1603200D 250B1002
0C2F0E14 2800011A
150F0000 00000000
006B92A4 0000000A
066B9A58 0000000A
07121918 2F261F13
2A290000 00000000
06407AAC 00000062
ZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZ

ZZZZZZZZ: Fail

05051612 330A251F
221C0606 2B340909
1E180B0B 231D2F37
2C352D26 241E323A
1D170404 2A330E0E
30380C0C 15110303
0D0D3764 130F1915
2E3B0101 0202211B
1C161410 201A3139 
07071713 29321F19 
08080064 17131814

Someone please try to fix it

I'm writing up a guide right now.

CloneHat · Jul 11, 2009

Do you think you could make it normal, but with the 2 extras on the Melee page?

shanus · Jul 11, 2009

5ive said:
Don't ignore my comment from above please D=. I'm already mad enough that Pika got nerfed the day before a tournament; the last thing I need is that this issue be ignored.

I also think the Deadlands removal should be re thought. We want this to be a competitive based game right? Why remove a neutral? I would suggest to give both options on the stage select screen, whether it be replacing New Pork City with Deadlands or something comparable.

Pika's downthrow is amazingly hard to modify. The issue with it is it bounces the player off the ground affording additional hitstun as such (this is why it CGs like whoa). I hate its current iteration, but almost any less KB and it still could CG some characters to 50% or more...

I'll try and do something more creative to it.

Also, what are your thoguhts to making mansion respawn after a few minutes instead of 20-40 seconds?

CountKaiser · Jul 11, 2009

I support the mansion respawn of 1 or more minutes.

proteininja · Jul 11, 2009

shanus said:
Pika's downthrow is amazingly hard to modify. The issue with it is it bounces the player off the ground affording additional hitstun as such (this is why it CGs like whoa). I hate its current iteration, but almost any less KB and it still could CG some characters to 50% or more...

I'll try and do something more creative to it.

Also, what are your thoguhts to making mansion respawn after a few minutes instead of 20-40 seconds?

YES!!! Make the mansion respawn time longer.

Lil'E · Jul 11, 2009

I'm really content with the new Ness. He seems to be reaching his 'gold' status as people call it.

Also, the added speed to PK Fire is nice; however, its the end lag(I think that's the term) that needs some adjusting. The move is easily DI'd of on the first hit. I suggest changing the end lag or make PK Fire harder to DI out of.

This probably happened awhile back, but for some reason I just only noticed it. I'm going to say its the increased gravity in Brawl+... but, can Ness not stall using his PSI Magnet anymore? He can only pull off two from a double jump off the stage before recovery is impossible.

PK Flash is fine in my opinion. A bit more power would be nice, but I'm content. The only other change I can even think of giving is a no helpless state after using it in the air but, =/.

I'm just going to throw this out there, but would a PK Thunder Cancel with shield button be too much?

I still believe that only the tipper'd bat should make that PING sound. The rest of the bat should revert back to the old sound.

proteininja said:
Ness feels great, and is a beasticle. I love his physics, but didn't really try the "zap jump yet" if someone could explain it's usefullness and how exactly to do it I would greatly appreciate it. The new psi magnet was a change I anticipated greatly, and it is better than I had hoped.

PK Fire and Double Jump at the same time. You will get a significant vertical and forward boost. If I remember correctly, Ness goes a bit more than halfway across FD from the edge. this is one of the best additions in my opinion. Zap Jump can be used offensively, defensively, and for recovery. He can also do a SMALL magnet pull. Lucas's Zap Jump is at best only useful for recovery without the aid of his Magnet Pull for the distance or for chasing someone in the air for a kill like Sonic and his **** spring.

On a different character... The ICs. Was the idea to get rid of chain grabs or to get rid of infinites in Brawl+? If the CG then OK, but if not... why exactly can't you CG with their forward throw? You will reach the ledge. It is the back throw that enabled the infinite.

proteininja · Jul 11, 2009

Lil'E said:
PK Fire and Double Jump at the same time. You will get a significant vertical and forward boost. If I remember correctly, Ness goes a bit more than halfway across FD from the edge. this is one of the best additions in my opinion. Zap Jump can be used offensively, defensively, and for recovery. He can also do a SMALL magnet pull. Lucas's Zap Jump is at best only useful for recovery without the aid of his Magnet Pull for the distance or for chasing someone in the air for a kill like Sonic and his **** spring.

Thank you for explaining.

FrozenHobo · Jul 11, 2009

i'm fine with the mansion taking longer to respawn.

Jimbo_G · Jul 11, 2009

I support the idea of making Luigi's Mansion take longer to spawn. I would think 2-3 minutes would be about right. Once it's destroyed, I think there should be a good, significant chunk of time before it comes back.

proteininja · Jul 11, 2009

I don't know why this is, but recently the fact that running tether grabs slide so much has been bothering me to an extreme degree.

i constantly slide past my opponent, and the slide looks unnatural. Is this intended or is a friction change incoming?

jalued · Jul 11, 2009

i support the mansion being gone for longer once its destroyed. will add a certain strategic element to gameplay. if the opponent benefits the mansion being there, then they have to stop opponent from breaking the mansion for as long as possible.

also im still wondering about bowser's upthrow, it doesnt seem any better/worse.

and no shield canceling ness' upB lol, would make it far too good as a projectile

Lil'E · Jul 11, 2009

jalued said:
and no shield canceling ness' upB lol, would make it far too good as a projectile

Yea, that was mostly posted as a joke. I just wanted to see the outcome.

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