Rob Official Matchup Discussion: Wolf

Syde7 · Jul 8, 2009

This week will be Wolf. I'll try to keep this one open a bit longer than usual, what with Genesis being this weekend and everyone being absorbed in/going to that.

ROB's Advantages:

ROB's Disadvantages:

Opponent's Advantages:

Opponent's Disadvantages:

What ROB should try to do:

How opponent can stop it:

What Opponent should be trying to do:

How ROB can stop it:

Counterpicks (what ROB should pick/ What opponent will pick {If you're someone contributing from another board})
Bans (what ROB should ban 1 via stage strike, 1 via personal ban)
Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants/ What opponent wants {If you're someone contributing from another board})

Ratio:

Plus, any anecdotes/explanations you wanna give.

Get on it, sunshine!

Syde7 · Jul 8, 2009

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5378045#post5378045

The thread (slightly dated) from a Wolf's POV.

Edit: Apologies for the 2x post, goofed it up.

tekkie · Jul 8, 2009

I don't like ROB's fair very much.

Or his obscene range on ftilt and dsmash.

Um, my best matchup advice is watch out for JJ's shine.

GwJ · Jul 8, 2009

I have no experience here. I played a random Wolf at TGP May, but he wasn't very good (check my youtube channel (GwJumpman)), and Kain on wifi a few times. All I know is he's not that bad, but it's fairly even in my opinion. It'd me more in Wolf's favor if he didn't have a hard time recovering.

~ Gheb ~ · Jul 9, 2009

What can ROB do to beat Wolfs bair? I've seen some videos of Wolf doing 7 bairs in a row and ROB can't escape =/

GwJ · Jul 9, 2009

I'm pretty sure a spaced Fair will work because it's a little bit disjointed.

Sudai · Jul 9, 2009

ROB's FAir beats Wolf's BAir. As does a well timed, upward angled FSmash. FTilt generally isn't a good idea vs Wolf's BAir just because of the angle it hits at compared to where Wolf should be attacking from when fighting ROB.

I think ROB has the advantage here, I really do. Wolf's just not fast enough to get in on our brick walls and the only thing Wolf has to get in is spaced BAirs which get beaten by our spaced FAirs, or his shine. Shine really will be Wolf's best option in like..every situation vs ROB unless he's below him (I know that's not actually true, just exaggerating). This is the usual match-up for ROB. Space like hell and then when they get close, toss them out.

Obviously once Wolf's off stage, he -should- be dead. Superior edge play by the Wolf will enable him to come back, but it's gonna be ****ed hard. Won't get into that though as I'm sure all of us here know that and how it's accomplished.

Soooooo, I'm gonna throw this at 65-35, ROB's favor unless a Wolf can convince me that he has something that allows him to make up for his lack of speed and range to get into ROB's Zone in the air or on the ground.

Mag!c · Jul 9, 2009

I don't see Wolf being terribly difficult. Sudai just pretty much outlined the game play- we outrange Wolf in most or all relevant aspects. Wolf should have a fairly difficult time KOing ROB due to a constantly stale B-Air and his Smashes being his go-to options on the ground, and I believe a gimp is out of the question. The risk associated with chasing ROB off the stage (I mean, come on, really) is way too great.

Syde7 · Jul 9, 2009

I really like the U-tilt in this natchup. If the wolf gets careless with his B-airs and comes down on top of you (especially at lower percents) or tries a cross-up you can snag some U-tilts to U-airs/smashes at low percents.

His smashes are a hassle at times, but are generally easily dealt with by ROB's typical close quarters tools done OoS.

Tilts in general are pretty solid in this MU... but as Sudai said the F-air is better against the B-air wall.

Edgeguarding him is especially easy if you manage to steal his jump. If he holds onto it, things get a bit trickier but is still not impossible. If he's recovering from directly below, a spaced B-air will net a stage spike of his up+b & its vulnerable at its start. Just be careful not to get accidently caught up in his up+b as well. Watch out for his phantasm, at if you forget about it, it *will* cause some trouble.

On the subject of >B... don't get suckered in to his scarring/telestepping shenanigans. Find the area behind the scarring location, and in-front of the telestep and hang out there.

Most of his KOs will be outright KOs; F-air, U-air, side-B if he is ballsy, and a randomly fresh smash. Also, watch out for DACUS set ups for U-air juggling. Occasionally he'll get ballsy and try to make you eat a B-air offstage during the start-up of the up+B

As Sudai said... his shine is his best defensive option in almost any scenario, and that can enable him to go on the offensive.

Other things to watch out for:
N-air->reflector->______
B-airs-> land-> Smash
B-airs-> land -> F-air
Laser->Up+B across the stage

Remember, you win the camp-fest at long range, and go even at short range if you hide behind a gyro.

Preferred neutral: FD; no scarring, lip can fuggz with the recovery hxc
Strike: Yoshi's & choice of either BF/SV
Ban: Player pref??
CP: Japes, frigate, castle siege

Ratio: 60-40 ROB's+

ElPadrino · Jul 9, 2009

ROB probably has the upper hand in this one, simply because it is possible to Gimp Wolf at laughable %.

Though Wolf has better aerial mobility and Bair is a great pressure on ROB. Also, if ROB can't gimp WOlf then Wolf's probably gonna get the first stock, since his D-Smash is a better killer than any of ROB's move (except perhaps Nair, but it'll most probably become stale by then) plus ROB's aerial cancel being worth for ****.

I'm inclined to say ROB's camping wins here, simply because it's faster/reaches longer and the lasers can be shot diagonal thus preventing a reflection back at you. And Gyro can be avoided if reflected from afar.

In my opinion this matchup is closer than most give credit for, and the smartest player will win. But I must give ROB a slight advantage on the ratio because of the gimping possibility. 60/40 or 55/45 ROB's favor.

Ishiey · Jul 9, 2009

Last two posts above this one are fairly accurate, besides the laser > upB...

Just about even, imo. You won't always have perfect fairs, and you won't be able to react in time to counter every bair, so I would put them relatively even. Wolf's bair has less cooldown than your fair, which (along with wolf's better aerial mobility) makes it easier to punish your whiffs than for you to punish his. Idk, it's been a while for me, but I don't think that your fair will make bair much less of a threat.

There's also juggling, which wolf is very good at. Fair sets up well, and assuming the wolf isn't too slow he should also be able to deal with your camping via reflector. Bair is probably the most annoying thing you have, imo. You won't be gimping a good wolf btw, with good DI, saving the dj, and/or varying recovery, the wolf should be able to get back on stage just fine. Dtilt and utilt are annoying, but that's about it.

Sudai, can you please elaborate on wolf's "lack of speed and range"? Wolf is far from slow, and his range is also very decent.

Hopefully castorpollux will come in here and show his clips of shine gimping ROB and those 7 bair combos >.> I'd say this matchup is about even though. CP wolf to frigate orpheon >_>

~ Gheb ~ · Jul 10, 2009

ROBs fair doesn't beat Wolfs bair.

I think it's 5/5...ROB is way too easy to juggle

"Remember, you win the camp-fest at long range, and go even at short range if you hide behind a gyro. "

Not true. ROB isn't flexible enough at long range especially against Wolfs mobility.

GwJ · Jul 10, 2009

ROB doesn't need to be flexible. With two projectiles that can cover just about the entire stage, Wolf isn't safe at long range at all.

Syde7 · Jul 10, 2009

Gheb_01 said:
ROBs fair doesn't beat Wolfs bair.

I think it's 5/5...ROB is way too easy to juggle

"Remember, you win the camp-fest at long range, and go even at short range if you hide behind a gyro. "

Not true. ROB isn't flexible enough at long range especially against Wolfs mobility.

If Wolf is content to sit and empty SH at the other end of FD, sneak in for a blaster shot, and sneak back out while ROB is near the opposite ledge... ROB will win that exchange 8/10 times. The fact that Wolf's blaster fizzles out after a certain range, and ROB's does not + the ability of the gyro to cover 1/4 of the stage uncharged and almost the whole thing when charged means that as long as ROB gets 1-2 free laser or gyro hits vs Wolf not getting a blaster hit in- ROB wins that camping contest. Essentially... at long range wolf is focusing on *not* getting hit... meaning there is a chance, whereas ROB *can't* get hit.

Sudai · Jul 10, 2009

Gheb_01 said:
ROBs fair doesn't beat Wolfs bair.

Uhm...wrong. ROB's FAir at max range will beat Wolf's BAir every single time. Wolf's BAir is overall faster and a bit a safer, but FAir will out range BAir every single time if spaced correctly. There's other aspects to Wolf and his BAir that may push the two to being even, but you can't deny what I said about ROB's FAir vs Wolf's BAir earlier. Besides, upwards angled FSmashes still beat out Wolf's BAir. If you're above FSmash range you're in UTilt range so there's no real contest there. A smart ROB will shut down Wolf's BAir walls.

Gheb_01 said:
"Remember, you win the camp-fest at long range, and go even at short range if you hide behind a gyro. "

Not true. ROB isn't flexible enough at long range especially against Wolfs mobility.

.....What? Makes me wonder how competent of a human you are. Wolf has a slow clunky unidirectional blaster; ROB has a moderately quick, amiable laser, and a gyro that we can charge to shoot fast and we can charge it or jump and shoot to shoot from different heights. How is ROB too inflexible to out camp Wolf? What?

You have a reflector and good aerial mobility? Okay. We're going to aim for where you're going. You have to remember, we have tons of experience aiming this thing and Wolf doesn't change dirrections quickly in the air, he just moves quickly in one direction. It's not hard to aim where you're going to be. As for the reflector, that's nothing new, we'll just aim our lasers so that if you reflect it it won't hurt us like we always do.

Now...How does ROB not win the distance game?

NeoCrono · Jul 10, 2009

R.O.B has the advantage. Especially if Wolf is going to try to camp, our projectile speed and range is better then wolf. I tend to aim my F-smash upward if wolf is just going to BAir. if R.O.B gets wolf off the stage we have the advantage.

I would bring a wolf to Norfair and Rainbow Cruise personally. But that's just me

Syde7 · Jul 10, 2009

SugarShiek33 said:
R.O.B has the advantage. Especially if Wolf is going to try to camp, our projectile speed and range is better then wolf. I tend to aim my F-smash upward if wolf is just going to BAir. if R.O.B gets wolf off the stage we have the advantage.

I would bring a wolf to Norfair and Rainbow Cruise personally. But that's just me

Not so much Norfair... he can have all kinds of fun with the ledges, and it actually makes his recovery not as sub-par, imo.

NeoCrono · Jul 10, 2009

Yeah, I love Nofair cause I feel like I can control platforms and force wolf to go where you want him to go. Where do you take wolf?

GwJ · Jul 10, 2009

You LIKE Norfair? What stages don't you like then?

Sudai · Jul 10, 2009

Take Wolf to Frigate or Japes or something. Norfair is a bad idea.

NeoCrono · Jul 10, 2009

Depends on who I'm using and who I'm fighting against. Norfair is a stage I don't love.
I like Frigate and Japes as a CP though.

~ Gheb ~ · Jul 11, 2009

Don't take Wolf to Japes lol

Darth Waffles · Jul 11, 2009

Most people probably already know this but to throw it in since I haven't seen it in this thread yet...

Grabbing wolf at the edge of the stage at very low percents (0-20?) pretty much guarantees ROB a free stock. Backthrow-->run off the stage-->FAST FALL a forward air (It WILL hit Wolf even if he double jumps in any direction)-->double jump-->fair-->second fair if you need, or if they mash/DI away grab the ledge, then up-B back or even up-B out and fair/Bair them. It's certainly possible on wolf players after you get up and then shieldgrab a smash

The up-b to the stage grants you invincibility just as the side-B reaches it, though I just go for a second and sometimes a third Fair since it's easier to not worry about it that way

ElPadrino · Jul 12, 2009

Darth Waffles said:
Backthrow-->run off the stage-->FAST FALL a forward air (It WILL hit Wolf even if he double jumps in any direction)

Yes, IF the Wolf actually double jumps...

A smart Wolf won't use his double jump until he is safe from being interupted, plus wolf will be able to get out of the Fair chains with a shine or maybe a Nair to the face, then he will doublejump and recover. Leaving YOU to be edgeguarded.

So I really doubt that technique will work on smart players.

Couple of things I want to say, I don't wanna go quote-happy on you so you'll know if I'm adressing tis to you:

Firstly, Wolf by no means has either poor Speed (attack wise) or poor Range (pretty much the opposite).

Second, Gheb you should know better. It actually makes me think you've NEVER fought a decent ROB before; ROB wins by far on long range projectiles.

Third, Take Wolf to Norfair? Bad idea, he will be able to recover on about 8 diferent ledges, plus the ability to be saved from gimps by the lava. I ussually take Wolf to either Frigate or Lylat Cruise.

Lastly, Juggling in Brawl is more a matter of mindgames and playing smart than actually juggling, what I mean is that a well timed airdodge could break the juggle. and a predictable one could be punished badly. So imagine ROB is sent in the air and the Wolf rushes to Uair, a well timed airdodge, a well timed Nair or Dair or Bair or double jump will take care of the problem, but imagine that Wolf predicts you'll Dair immidiatly, then he can wait or go around you and Fair you or Dair you.

So because of the new Airddge sistem, brains in what will matter when being "comboed".

Sudai · Jul 12, 2009

Padrino, I only want to touch on your comments about juggling. Wolf juggling ROB should -never- happen. ROB can simply fly off stage, above Wolf's reach and recover from there where he's much safer. We have more than enough fuel to do that.

I lied, I want to talk about one more thing. Wolf's range is good, yes, but ROB has disjointed range which will always trump over jointed range. Whenever I say ROB's range is better, that's what I mean.

The rest of your post I either agree with or I don't think it matters enough to bother arguing it.

Darth Waffles · Jul 12, 2009

Fast-falling the fair does hit wolf at the last moment, even if he does not double jump. The wasted double jump is just a bonus. The thing is, the fair does connect, and when ROB double jumps to follow Wolf, it puts him in the same position as when the first fair hit. ROB double jumps, waits a fraction of a second (like running off the edge), and then fairs again (not fastfalling the second one).

I'm almost positive that fair beats shine, though I would be very wary of nairing as wolf just because (if it hits, and it might, I'm not sure) that would force wolf to use up-B because he would be too far under the stage, even with double jumping. Unless either of those two moves somehow hits and ROB is at high enough percents that the knockback sends him far enough away to give wolf time to recover, it really doesn't look good for wolf. Otherwise, even if you connect, and I really don't think you can due to fair's disjointed-ness, it doesn't look good for wolf. ROB can just backair you anyway if you get the up-b off.

Mr.E · Jul 12, 2009

Shine has invincibility, I'm almost positive ROB's FAir won't be beating it if it's timed properly. The problem, of course, is it may well be suicidal to use it. *shrug* Carry on...

ElPadrino · Jul 12, 2009

Darth Waffles, you're completely throwing DI out of the window...

DIing properly Wolf would be able to double jump before ROB gets to him, or just double jump shine and get rid of the problem.

If Wolf double jumps and shines simultaniously it will gain invincibility frames and hit ROB with shine while rising into the air, Wolf will then proceed to Flash to the ledge while the ROB is stunned. There goes your so much perfect combo.

And if the Wolf feels Ballsy, he might want to edgeguard the ROB from the ledge with a nice DAir because ROB will be forced to use his recovery or double jump.

GwJ · Jul 12, 2009

Nuh uh uh there ElPadrino. A Dair edgeguard is the last thing you want to do vs. ROB. Trying to Dair us from the edge is basically a stock right that. You know what they say, "ROB laughs in the face of spikes". You dair him, he'll be back up to Uair you before you blink.

i1337 · Jul 12, 2009

GwJumpman said:
Nuh uh uh there ElPadrino. A Dair edgeguard is the last thing you want to do vs. ROB. Trying to Dair us from the edge is basically a stock right that. You know what they say, "ROB laughs in the face of spikes". You dair him, he'll be back up to Uair you before you blink.

Truth has been spoken.

GwJ · Jul 12, 2009

I thought of something. Since Wolf's UpB's warm-up animation doesn't hurt ROB, we can just to a rising Dair to you and it really would be a stock for trying to Dair edgeguard us.

gg

ROFL? · Jul 13, 2009

GwJumpman said:
I thought of something. Since Wolf's UpB's warm-up animation doesn't hurt ROB, we can just to a rising Dair to you and it really would be a stock for trying to Dair edgeguard us.

gg

Aha! In all our testing Fishy and I did not think of this for some reason. We will have to further experiment with this. The basic consensus we came to is this: there are two basic things that Wolf can do. They are 1) Use his double jump, then try to recover or 2) Try to recover, the use his double jump as necessary. If ROB is able to guess correctly which of these things Wolf will do, there's not much of a chance for the Wolf. However, if he guesses wrong, it's a fairly easy recovery for Wolf unless ROB stays on the stage.

joebot · Jul 13, 2009

I can safely say I probably have the most experience against wolf as ROB. I've probably played JJ Wolf several hundred times... no lie. Those videos of his bair strings? Yep that was me :/ I think at this point it's pretty much just mind games since we've played each other so much, but I'll try and contribute what I can.

ROB's Advantages:

F-tilt and fair are probably ROB's most useful tools in this matchup, as was pointed out already. If wolf is hurt far off stage, bair is a very useful tool to get the kill. Just fall with him and react accordingly.

ROB's Disadvantages:

Landing a kill move can be a problem if you staled your n-air. Wolf can juggle you. ROB's best option is probably to go to the ledge, but he also good tools to keep you from coming back. Just mix it up.

Opponent's Advantages:

Shine, short-hop shine, blaster/grab mind games, bair hurts (if you whiff a fair expect some punishment), pretty good air and ground speed

Opponent's Disadvantages:

Possibility of getting gimped, however it is a lot harder than it seems. Yes there is always something you can do to gimp the wolf, but wolf always has a way to get around it. Watch out for the range of f-smash and d-smash (front side is stronger) and wolf can have trouble killing you.

What ROB should try to do:

Learn to perfect shield and grab the bair. Typical spacing stuff with tilts and aerials. I do a lot of grabbing in this matchup. If he gets inside you and you can't get a grab, use jab. It's just as fast as his jab.

For counterpicks, I would say RC, frigate, or PS 1 to mess with his recovery. Not sure on bans, and I would say for neutrals just go with your comfortable one.

Ratio: 55:45-60:40 in favor of ROB.

It's not game over for wolf by any means... but if your not JJ don't use wolf against me

I may add some stuff later.

Seagull Joe · Jul 14, 2009

Darth Waffles said:
Most people probably already know this but to throw it in since I haven't seen it in this thread yet...

Grabbing wolf at the edge of the stage at very low percents (0-20?) pretty much guarantees ROB a free stock. Backthrow-->run off the stage-->FAST FALL a forward air (It WILL hit Wolf even if he double jumps in any direction)-->double jump-->fair-->second fair if you need, or if they mash/DI away grab the ledge, then up-B back or even up-B out and fair/Bair them. It's certainly possible on wolf players after you get up and then shieldgrab a smash

The up-b to the stage grants you invincibility just as the side-B reaches it, though I just go for a second and sometimes a third Fair since it's easier to not worry about it that way

i tend to have no problems against robs. the fact that rob can projectile camp makes me laugh cause wolf can reflect. if top is out still spinning. wolf can jump on the thing while shining and it becomes his. also that combo against wolf where he auto dies early. wouldnt work. the fact is wolf's recovery with side b can go thru anything if someone just presses down. scarring thru stage makes this whole fair wall worthless. also shine comes out on frame 1. side b isnt a considerable startup at all like up b. all in all. u may be the one dead because of sweet spotted side b which can spike. wolf's side b spike when i have done it on robs. never recover. like luigi down taunt. so feel free to be the dead one.

Seagull Joe · Jul 14, 2009

also what is with that girl as everyone's avi. who is she?

stingers · Jul 14, 2009

put her in yours son

Mr.E · Jul 14, 2009

more like put yours in her amirite

What's all this garbage about Wolf edgeguarding ROB? :laugh:

Mag!c · Jul 14, 2009

Because people are quick to laud the positives of their character, while this is not the same for the negatives? Note- In no way did I champion ROBs attributes in this post, or say anything about the matchup.

ps- i like butthole

castorpollux · Jul 22, 2009

joebot said:
I can safely say I probably have the most experience against wolf as ROB. I've probably played JJ Wolf several hundred times... no lie. Those videos of his bair strings? Yep that was me :/ I think at this point it's pretty much just mind games since we've played each other so much, but I'll try and contribute what I can.

ROB's Advantages:

F-tilt and fair are probably ROB's most useful tools in this matchup, as was pointed out already. If wolf is hurt far off stage, bair is a very useful tool to get the kill. Just fall with him and react accordingly.

ROB's Disadvantages:

Landing a kill move can be a problem if you staled your n-air. Wolf can juggle you. ROB's best option is probably to go to the ledge, but he also good tools to keep you from coming back. Just mix it up.

Opponent's Advantages:

Shine, short-hop shine, blaster/grab mind games, bair hurts (if you whiff a fair expect some punishment), pretty good air and ground speed

Opponent's Disadvantages:

Possibility of getting gimped, however it is a lot harder than it seems. Yes there is always something you can do to gimp the wolf, but wolf always has a way to get around it. Watch out for the range of f-smash and d-smash (front side is stronger) and wolf can have trouble killing you.

What ROB should try to do:

Learn to perfect shield and grab the bair. Typical spacing stuff with tilts and aerials. I do a lot of grabbing in this matchup. If he gets inside you and you can't get a grab, use jab. It's just as fast as his jab.

For counterpicks, I would say RC, frigate, or PS 1 to mess with his recovery. Not sure on bans, and I would say for neutrals just go with your comfortable one.

Ratio: 55:45-60:40 in favor of ROB.

It's not game over for wolf by any means... but if your not JJ don't use wolf against me

I may add some stuff later.

Stupid joebot...

joebot · Jul 27, 2009

it's okay i'm still a "Smash n00b"

Rob Official Matchup Discussion: Wolf

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