Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

thumbswayup · Jul 14, 2009

Mogwai said:
Spacies and Sheik are still harder for CF than Jiggs IMO. In the grand scheme of things, I think Falcon's pretty good vs. Jiggs, it just requires a different mindset than other matchups (don't combo, just bair/dair/uair and dthrow -> knee).

Yeah, I used to think Falco and Sheik were his absolute worst, but think about it. Falcon can zero to death both of those characters if he reads them perfectly, but it's almost impossible to zero to death a Jiggs. Her recovery is insane and her edgeguarding against you is so good that once you're off the stage you're dead. Let's not forget her combos to rest on stage. You're right though, it seems you have to keep your distance and hit and run. But that's very hard to do when one mistake can cost you your stock.

Scar · Jul 14, 2009

@ reaper, i never got to play ASG which I'm okay with haha dude's too much in my head after the **** yay pulled lol (goddammit yay). i played SS and Darkrain in friendlies (and obvi Hax, we play all the time) and idk it went back and forth with all of us, some matches i got ***** other matches i ***** and depending on what people saw (and what they wanted to see) people surely have huge biases on who did what -- but then again they are friendlies so i dont really care either way

breakdown, SS went more than even with me prob like 40/60, i went 3-2 with darkrain, and hax ***** me most of the time lol. in tourney it could have gone either way with any of them but i'm confident that i would have beaten hax/ss and lost to darkrain

_marth1_ said:
this
gj scar/other falcons

oh ps marth1 is probably the best falcon of all time

Mogwai said:
Spacies and Sheik are still harder for CF than Jiggs IMO. In the grand scheme of things, I think Falcon's pretty good vs. Jiggs, it just requires a different mindset than other matchups (don't combo, just bair/dair/uair and dthrow -> knee).

truth, its just stupid and dumb and gay and you really can't make a mistake but if you're safe enough you can win it

it's sort of like vs ICs except slightly gayer

papermarkis · Jul 14, 2009

thumbswayup said:
Yeah, I used to think Falco and Sheik were his absolute worst, but think about it. Falcon can zero to death both of those characters if he reads them perfectly, but it's almost impossible to zero to death a Jiggs. Her recovery is insane and her edgeguarding against you is so good that once you're off the stage you're dead. Let's not forget her combos to rest on stage. You're right though, it seems you have to keep your distance and hit and run. But that's very hard to do when one mistake can cost you your stock.

The thing about those match-ups is, you HAVE to zero to death. They shut down all offensive and defensive options otherwise. Jiggs can be ran away from and doesn't have the speed to make her priority work as effectively as Falco and Sheik.

Mogwai · Jul 14, 2009

I suppose it matters whether we're talking about the matchups being played perfectly or accounting for quite a few mistakes from each side. If we're talking about the matchups being played perfectly, Falcon is completely boned vs. Spacies and Sheik, but once we start talking about a Spacie or Sheik that makes more than a couple punishable errors, it becomes a whole lot more manageable. The same is true for Jiggs in the CF matchup. If the CF stays near center stage and camps appropriately spaced bair/uair/dair, there's pretty much not a **** thing she can do about it, but once we account for a few punishable errors, she can punish harder than any other character in the game.

so basically, I think right now that the top level Falcon vs. Sheik/Fox/Falco is pretty close to the same as Falcon vs. Jiggs, but as the best Falcons meet H Box and MaNg0 more and more, the limit of the matchup as Falcon's skill increases will favor CF. On the other hand, Sheiks, Foxes and Falcos who play vs. good CFs more and more will start to put those matchups back to being soundly in their characters' favor.

Scar · Jul 14, 2009

POF thinks CF should rise on the tier list lol

Alukard · Jul 14, 2009

good **** scar =]

peoples champ 4 sure ! =]

papermarkis · Jul 14, 2009

Scar said:
POF thinks CF should rise on the tier list lol

lol, 3 Falcons in top 8 in a tourney like this will probably never happen again.

P.C. Jona · Jul 14, 2009

well he could rise in like points, but to go above jiggs or peach? nah

pockyD · Jul 14, 2009

what the hell are points

Mogwai · Jul 14, 2009

I think he means those ******** numbers that are next to each characters name in the current tier list.

P.C. Jona · Jul 14, 2009

yea that
like i think probly like falco should go up a bit jiggs and peach too.
marth and fox should go down a bit too

skyheart · Jul 14, 2009

ataaaaa boy trucidlo8r or whatever it is looool

giving you some love

lul

DrewB008 · Jul 14, 2009

i went 2-2 with scar in dittos, dude sucks

mogwai i dunno, jiggs is seeming worse and worse lately, there are like zero combos that are reliable, you can only kill her with like surprising knees

Mogwai · Jul 14, 2009

moar bair.

pretend you're playing Ganon except that you can effectively run away when Jiggs tries to put your back up against a wall. You kill later than Ganon, but the dynamic is similar in that you wanna **** her up worse than you really can, so you just keep punching her until she dies instead.

Also, having a semi-reliable dthrow -> knee @ the 60-80% range is cool, I think the good falcons just need to get better at reacting to the difference between Jiggs DIing in and away on that, I saw Scar missing it a lot.

At least that's this Falco player's take on the matchup.

Hax · Jul 14, 2009

ive mastered the DI in **** peaches/jiggs do to escape your knee. im a pro at landing it now.. its not that hard. i wasn't really paying attn. to dark vs hbox other than to root on hbox.. but i don't think falcon jiggs is a bad matchup. dthrow double knee is 40-50%. you get this dthrow by bair/fair pressuring them into putting up their shield, which is tall enough to grab. i think edgeguarding jiggs is null and void.. the only jiggs i was able to edgeguard was raistlin, who needs to quit. sheik also isn't a bad matchup.. dthrow/uthrow regrabs and edgeguarding **** the balls off her.

falco is ****ing stupid and i wanna quit because of him

DrewB008 · Jul 14, 2009

i can usually get it on the DI in, but im pretty sure they can still rest you if they dont DI the throw at all, so then you just have to uair most of the time which doesnt kill til like 1000%. not to mention you die if jiggs happens to read your grab and ducks

and ganon dies real easily compared to jiggs, land one nair then knee then like the easiest edgeguard in the game, not to mention like 50 other moves that combo into knee. hell just hit them with an ftilt and edgeguard

bair kills jiggs at like 100ish yeah, but only if jiggs runs into it, which if you watch hbox play you'd see that he doesnt really move towards you often if at all

basically it boils down to the fact that there are more good things that falcon can potentially pull off on jiggs, but practically every one of them gets you killed in one hit if you make the slightest mistake or the jiggs predicts it

not to mention jiggs edgeguarding falcon

its not as bad as the bad matchups falcon is traditionally known for having, but i'd say its jiggs advantage

Mogwai · Jul 14, 2009

i meant pretend you are playing as Ganon, still vs. Jiggs.

DrewB008 · Jul 14, 2009

ah ok

yeah that is the best way to fight jiggs, i feel like sometimes i almost exclusively hit jiggs with bair

but thats still a move that relies on jiggs running into it, which a jiggs can very easily just not do if they dont want to

if you didnt see hbox vs dark its harder to imagine, i wouldnt have thought most of this before that set, but hbox pretty much just spaced bairs under a platform on battlefield 3rd match. dark couldnt do a full jump stomp or anything like that due to the platform, so his only hope was to punish a retreating bair, which basically requires complete commitment. if he doesnt land the hit or grab or whatever he tried to do, best case scenario he gets hit away, but he can easily get grabbed as well, and right by the ledge no less. watching that match i really couldnt imagine someone getting through that defense with falcon, at least not consistently enough to win

NES n00b · Jul 14, 2009

Scar how do I get sixth in Genesis?

Also how do I get mad respect? I need more of that.

Also, great money match set. Glad I got to money match. Thought I wouldn't get a chance when I saw the lack of tvs and the fact it seemed like I was never able to find you unless you were doing a tourney set.

Sraigux · Jul 14, 2009

I frequently face a falco who spams fsmash, I sheild and try to sheildgrab them but they always seems to be just out of range, jumping out of my sheild usually just sets me up for another fsmash also. What could I do?

skyheart · Jul 14, 2009

when you are about to get fsmashed, wd back smoothly

TresChikon · Jul 14, 2009

Sraigux said:
I frequently face a falco who spams fsmash, I sheild and try to sheildgrab them but they always seems to be just out of range, jumping out of my sheild usually just sets me up for another fsmash also. What could I do?

Come from above or counter with spam

P.C. Jona · Jul 14, 2009

lmao counter with spam

real answer:

dash away then raptor boost toward him > grab > ****

NES n00b · Jul 14, 2009

Scar said:
-NES N00B AAAAH i totally didnt know that that was you, next time i play you $50 MM i wont sandbag you this time

Oh ****....just saw this. Hype, 50 dollar money match get at me.

We will do this whenever. If you are going to SMYM 10 I can do it there. I can do this with Hax too but if that is going to happen it better not happen the same time cause that would potentially **** all my money. lol

Edit: At above, I will just grab cause he could just crouch cancel and **** you at low percent or crouch cancel and be in a better position then if you just grabbed. So just grab or knee or some ****.

P.C. Jona · Jul 14, 2009

if he was playing someone good then that applies

but it sounds like hes playing a noob

they dont know how to crouch cancel

or what that is

papermarkis · Jul 14, 2009

nevermind this post, sorry

Sraigux · Jul 14, 2009

P.C. Jona said:
if he was playing someone good then that applies

but it sounds like hes playing a noob

they dont know how to crouch cancel

or what that is

He is a noob, which is why its kind of weird. When i come in from the air, he sheilds and than fsmashes me again. Does raptorboost have more priority than his fsmash?

P.C. Jona · Jul 14, 2009

no it doesnt but you can time it in between them and then if hes a real noob you can upsmash him tiwce and then knee him

Hax · Jul 15, 2009

i was wondering.. if i side-b spacies is the u-smash guaranteed? or can they DI out of the first hit

P.C. Jona · Jul 15, 2009

yea i think they can

but it doesnt happen often

usually they just di the second hit and they go away

NES n00b · Jul 15, 2009

Hax said:
i was wondering.. if i side-b spacies is the u-smash guaranteed? or can they DI out of the first hit

They definitely can. It is one of the saddest things you can experience when you play Falcon.

DrewB008 · Jul 15, 2009

scar how the **** do i get control over my character

im sick of doing non jump cancel grabs into back throw to up smash combos or w/e it was

Reaver197 · Jul 15, 2009

By saying you do all of those on purpose for mindgames, lol.

I must say, I've gotten a lot better at jump-canceling my grabs thanks to Hax after I saw how he does his. But those blasted back-throws and not-jumping-and-smashing-or-dash-attacking-instead raise their infernal heads every now and then.

I was just wondering, does the downthrow chaingrab on spacies only work if they DI up/in? Or should you be able to do it at a certain percentage window regardless if you're fast enough and they don't DI away?

Divinokage · Jul 15, 2009

Man, I'd love to team with Darkrain at some point. =P

DrewB008 · Jul 15, 2009

i think you can get the cg on no DI as well, but if they DI away theres no chance

Tomacawk · Jul 15, 2009

Scar, after watching IKM2 again knowing that you actually are a top falcon from genesis, I noticed when you dair tech chase and predict a straight up tech, you run then jump straight up above them, rather than shffl dair out of your run and land behind them, which is what I do.
What are the advantages and disadvantages to jumping straight up as opposed to running jump?
if you do it from a run,
-you land behind them so if they get their shield up you're in an advantageous position
-if they tech away, you're in perfect position to punish after your dair is done
-looks badass when you dd->knee while their in the air

jumping straight up,
-you land in front, easy regrab if they miss DI
-more precise aim

that's all I can really think of. Am I over-analyzing this?

Divinokage · Jul 15, 2009

My guess is actually simply a guessing game.. when you double jump straight up, you can sometimes bait a side dodge in which you will land a move if he does that. If not then you will obviously get punished for it. After watching matches at Genesis and also playing many people there... it's no longer a matter of tech skill and all that stuff. It's seriously about spacing and getting in at the right moment. I felt as though you would die if you made any mistakes lol.

Edit: What I mean is smash in theory in any form does not work. You gotta get creative and change at all times.

DrewB008 · Jul 15, 2009

tomacawk it all depends on where you are and how much time you have to get there, etc.

when predicting techs though, i wouldnt worry about what will happen if you miss and instead focus on getting there on time no matter what

Tomacawk · Jul 15, 2009

bigd is you fail to prepare then you prepare to fail
it's dumb to think you'll hit every single tech, it's important to know which options you choose lead to followups should that option fail
but i guess you're right about it really not mattering
btw good job falcons at genesis.

DrewB008 · Jul 15, 2009

im not saying youll get every tech

im saying that you should get every tech that you guessed correctly on

punishing the tech while keeping in mind what will happen if they get their shield up in time is, literally, preparing to fail

punish the tech in the most comfortable way to you that guarantees you will hit them if you were correct in your prediction

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