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Stop it with the Lazy Man's Way Out! /rant thread

X

XienZo

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zeldspazz said:
The whole rounds and **** in tournaments wasnt important in my post.....ppl missed the point.

The point was Marth countered my main's worst matchups better than metaknight basically.
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The thing is, your opponent will counter Marth better than they could counter MK.
 
Overclassed

Overclassed

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Your argument isn't particularly good, and I'd really hate to see people fooled into feeling like they are mistaken when really they just don't agree with you.

Below is my best attempt at sifting through your post and weeding out the actual meat of the the argument. You'll notice you don't have 'multiple reasons', that the one premise you do have is not necessarily generally accepted, and that as a result your argument isn't strong, even if it is valid. And it is only valid if the first (and only) premise is accepted.

If a players definition of 'best secondary', for instance, is one that will be easiest to use effecrtively, then you'd have a whole different argument on your hands and this particular post would be meaningless.

You shouldn't all people 'lazy' based on your own opinions and ideals. It's insulting.

I'm sorry if you feel like you're being attacked, but its not really abotu tearing you as a person down. All I did was evaluate the argument. I have nothing against you or your views. I just frown at the idea of negatively portraying those that don't follow your train of thought.

SuSa said:
This is absolutely amazing. A second rant thread in one day? Wow, I must be in a bad mood today.

"The Lazy Way Out"

Metaknight is always the best secondary
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That is not true! it is the easiest conclusion to come to but many ignore matchup ratios and their own bad matchups. They feel just because Meta Knight goes even with the entire cast - that makes him the best secondary.

Here we have the conclusion: NOT 'Metaknight is always the best secondary', or 'Metaknight is not always the best secondary'.

This is false for multiple reasons!

If your character has a few 40-60 matchups, and let's just say 30-70 matchup and Meta Knight goes 55-45 with all of those matchups - yet someone else goes 60-40 or better, that makes that someone else your better secondary.

First Premise: If character X has better matchup ratios against your mains worst matchups than Metaknight, character x is a better secondary.

Yah, boo hoo you actually have to get off your *** and do some research. You know a great, fast place to start that research?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226315

That topic. Using the data from that topic (look at your characters bad matchups, then make a list of every character that has a favourable matchup with that character. Keep this in a notepad. Then compare)

For example, I will use Snake.

Snake goes bad against Olimar, most of us have come to agree on that. He can also have difficulty with D3 and Falco, although most everyone has come to the conclusion that those matchups are even nowadays.

So with this, we have Olimar+d3+Falco, a lazy person would say MK! But let's do some research.

MK vs:
Olimar 60-40 (says MK) and 38-62 (says Olimar)
D3: 60-40 (says MK) and 40-60 says D3
Falco: 55-45 (says MK) and 50-50 says Falco

Now let's look at other possibilities:

Falco (he's been mentioned)
Olimar: 50-50 says both
D3: 60-40 says Falco, 65-35 says D3
Falco: 50-50 (its a ditto)

This means if you didn't have to face any Olimars, Falco would arguably be your best secondary so far. But let's do some further research.

Peach:
Olimar: says 38-62 (same matchup as vs MK!)
D3: Both say 50-50
Falco: both say 55-45 Falco

This means that if you don't really have to face D3, and your Snake has problems with Falco - Peach may be a good choice.

Delving even DEEPER

Kirby:
Says 60-40 ALL MATCHUPS
Olimar has it listed as: 58-42 OLIMARS advantages
D3 has it the same as Kirby
Falco actually says its WORSE, 35-65 - Kirby being the 65.

This right here, with the debate on Olimar - just made Kirby a "better" secondary then MK. He has very similiar matchups against D3 (and debatable Olimar) but a better matchup vs Falco. (I don't know how up-to-date these matchup threads are....)

This whole bit is supporting evidence for the first premise. It focuses solely on matchup ratios. Not ease of use involving a character, not on tournament use, not on player-to-player experience.

So how about ya'll put some work into your actual best secondary going off your bad matchups and who covers those the best, even if it requires some work and thought.

MK is the easy way out for a secondary - because he also covers "personal" bad matchups, which an actual secondary that only covers "bad matchups" may not cover.

Just putting it out there.

Have fun number cramming,
SuSa
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NOTE: Everything struck is superfluous.
 
X

Xerit

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Thanks Overclassed thats pretty much what i've been trying to point out the entire time but couldn't figure out how to put into words.

I disagree with SuSa'spremise that a given character is a better secondary because it matches up well against your mains worst matchups. Instead I think what makes a secondary good is ease of use (allowing more focus on your main), and safety (allowing you to just practice one know if you have to use him you can't be counterpicked). MK doesn't maximize your advantage against a few given hard matchups for your main. Although he will most of the time have at least a slight advantage (at worst going even) in addition to being safe and easy to use.

Very helpful disection thanks!

SuSa said:

But MK does not have the best matchup against everyone. Therefore the CP opportunity would arise nearly every single time you lost a match, except against the few characters that MK does have the best matchup against. (Marth IIRC)
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No the opportunity most certainly would not unless you "secondary" every single character in the game.

If I main MK and secondary D3 I might only CP D3 if I was facing DK/Wolf or another equally simple match for D3. Also its not a CP unless I have somehow managed to lose with MK giving myself the opportunity to CP one of those characters.
 
Ruuku

Ruuku

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A secondary isn't always used for CP as far as I've seen. Not only that, you can change your character whether you won or lost the first match.
 
AvaricePanda

AvaricePanda

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Ease of use? A lot of good secondary characters are easy to use at a basic level, MK being no exception. MK, Game and Watch, Falco, D3, and to some extent Wario aren't all particularly hard to use. If your argument is that you want to focus more time on your main, all of these characters are quick pick-ups, especially Falco and D3.

MK is the safest CP character, but not always the best.

Assume that:

First Match: You stay your main, you win
Second Match: You don't know who they're going to counterpick, so MK is the safest option
Third Match: Your main/counterpick depending on who they be, you win

First Match: You stay your main, you lose
Second Match: You counterpick
Third Match: You don't know who they'll counterpick, so MK is the safest option.

On paper, MK is the safest option for one game out of your 3 game set. However, whether or not counterpicking will give you a huge benefit depends on who you main, who your opponent mains, and who your opponent IS. You play against Anther? He's going to go Pikachu. There's no point in thinking, "LOLS WUT IF HE GOES AGAINST THE GUY I SUCK AGAINST???" and pick MK, when you know he's a Pikachu main and he's going to be Pikachu. This goes for really any person in your region. You should know at least half of the mains of the people you're facing at a tournament.

Plus, if you main a character who has at worst a 60:40 match-up, counterpicking isn't too beneficial. You're either riding an uphill battle against a bad match-up with a character you know, or you're playing a beneficial match-up with a character you aren't nearly as good with. As long as your character doesn't get completely destroyed by someone else (Wolf, ROB, DK) there's no reason to need a secondary.

So while MK is the safest option, using a secondary in general isn't always.
 
SuSa

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Xerit said:
No the opportunity most certainly would not unless you "secondary" every single character in the game.

If I main MK and secondary D3 I might only CP D3 if I was facing DK/Wolf or another equally simple match for D3. Also its not a CP unless I have somehow managed to lose with MK giving myself the opportunity to CP one of those characters.
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If your place has the standing infinite banned, DK is not a simple matchup for D3.

Also sometimes people switch characters if they just BARELY won with a character. It's why I actually switched from Meta Knight to Snake... it was 'scary close'

My point being your example, is why D3? He only REALLY shuts down those he can infinite, and he counters most whom he can small step CG.

Why not Marth? Or Snake?

If you truly wanted the best chances to win - you'd main MK, with everyone as an alternate. If your MK somehow lost a game - you go with the character that has the best chance against your opponent.

The only way they can really break that system is if they go MK...

EDIT:

@Overclassed

Ease of use is probably the worst argument I've heard to support anything against this. In Brawl, if you just know the game, picking up characters isn't really that hard I've mained almost everyone, I used to main Random, and I feel confidant in tournament with a good 15 of my characters....It'd be more around 20 but the others I don't feel confidant in soley because the character itself sucks.
 
Dark 3nergy

Dark 3nergy

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OP said:
Quote:
The best secondary is always MK!



That is not true!
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im just finding out that myself. I used to use characters that where more aerial based versus ground based. Then i discovered how amazing ROB can be as a secondary since he compliments my ground based meta game.

edit: gyro is ****ing amazing tool
 
Overclassed

Overclassed

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SuSa said:


@Overclassed

Ease of use is probably the worst argument I've heard to support anything against this. In Brawl, if you just know the game, picking up characters isn't really that hard I've mained almost everyone, I used to main Random, and I feel confidant in tournament with a good 15 of my characters....It'd be more around 20 but the others I don't feel confidant in soley because the character itself sucks.
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Great.

I'm glad you feel that way about your abilities.

Did you read my post at all?

It was about how your "theory" was illogical and weak, not how ease of use made a better secondary.

:/
 
X

Xerit

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I just can't beat the "Nuh uh, I'm right and you're wrong" argument.

It takes real strong debate skills to put forth an argument, admit its wrong, and then spend the rest of the thread telling people its still true.

So I give up, you win. Its better to secondary 15 characters so you can always CP with the strongest one for a given matchup than it is to just second MK and always have a decent CP.
 
Matador

Matador

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ssbbFICTION said:
Falco goes fairly even with kirby. Personally I dont really see why Falco wouldnt have the advantage.
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I once saw Chu take a Falco's lasers once...then proceed to **** the **** out of him...It was funny at first, but it quickly became hard to watch.

I hear it's bad since he can duck under lasers AND he has a better SH laser than Falco...amongst other things.
 
E

etecoon

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Ease of use is probably the worst argument I've heard to support anything against this. In Brawl, if you just know the game, picking up characters isn't really that hard I've mained almost everyone, I used to main Random, and I feel confidant in tournament with a good 15 of my characters....It'd be more around 20 but the others I don't feel confidant in soley because the character itself sucks.
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knowing a characters good points and a good game plan is different than executing it, always need to practice and easier character = less practice which means more time you could be spending on your main, so I do think that simple characters make good secondaries, but that's especially if you want to use a lot of them, if you want to just get good with like 2-3 characters, it shouldn't really matter
 
S

salaboB

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SuSa said:
To be honest, any ratio over 30:70 should just be labeled "play another character" or "stop playing people far worse then yourself".

But that is soley my opinion.
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They all should be worded like that, imo. Vague descriptions instead of meaningless numbers that only confuse people who try to use them as win %'s.

That way they're still imprecise, but it's very clear that that's the case.
 
Reizilla

Reizilla

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Die stupid thread! I think everybody gets it already. Susa can't think straight at 2 am.
knothxbai
 
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