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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #8: Zelda

Kataefi

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Some will say I'm not one to write anything but I feel like writing regardless :)

Big disadvantage to Zelda due to being outcamped and having the inability to land kill moves on Tink for being small and agile :) That's my take on it.

I think what she can do is make herself difficult to kill unless you mixup your kill options. She can pop up from the first hit of fsmash and counter that. Vertical kills moves are definitely best because Zelda loves to die early from them. I believe your uair lingers through her airdodge, so bait that and punish. Watch out if she does the same for you... her uair is one of those 'I-must-never-ever-ever-get-hit-by-that' type of move.

Intelligent spamming and baiting her reflector with bombs is really the way forward for you guys - be careful, she can avoid your boomerang and then reflect it on its return to Tink and get him. I'm not too sure if he can space in such a way to avoid the boomerang's return - I've heard of phantom boomerangs though so that may be best (correct me if I'm mistaken lol). Din's fire can also be a wildcard to throw in every now and then, just be wary of this option from her.

Take her to a nice spacious place... ban anything remotely cramped or with platforms because she has some decent tricks on them - also... her ability to powershield is essential... if the player is good at powershielding then focus on mixing up the projectile spam to throw the player off course.
 
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Well for one, I have very little experience fighting Zelda. If you are fighting a Zelda that loves to spam Side B, just be aware that that attack has a crazy hitbox. It'll hit you when it's not touching you. I wouldn't get close at all to Zelda. I would only recommend mid range, seeing as close range = TL gets owned and long range = TL gets SideB camped. I don't see arrows working well in this matchup at all, since she can power shield or reflect them. Angled boomerangs seem safer. Bombs are a decent choice I guess.
 

MJG

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Some will say I'm not one to write anything but I feel like writing regardless :)

Big disadvantage to Zelda due to being outcamped and having the inability to land kill moves on Tink for being small and agile :) That's my take on it.

I think what she can do is make herself difficult to kill unless you mixup your kill options. She can pop up from the first hit of fsmash and counter that. Vertical kills moves are definitely best because Zelda loves to die early from them. I believe your uair lingers through her airdodge, so bait that and punish. Watch out if she does the same for you... her uair is one of those 'I-must-never-ever-ever-get-hit-by-that' type of move.

Intelligent spamming and baiting her reflector with bombs is really the way forward for you guys - be careful, she can avoid your boomerang and then reflect it on its return to Tink and get him. I'm not too sure if he can space in such a way to avoid the boomerang's return - I've heard of phantom boomerangs though so that may be best (correct me if I'm mistaken lol). Din's fire can also be a wildcard to throw in every now and then, just be wary of this option from her.

Take her to a nice spacious place... ban anything remotely cramped or with platforms because she has some decent tricks on them - also... her ability to powershield is essential... if the player is good at powershielding then focus on mixing up the projectile spam to throw the player off course.
Hmmm..thats very interesting about the boomerang. I see fox and peach players doing that a lot.

Zelda can tear apart our shields when we get in too close and her Up Smash can pick us up off the ground (I believe that it can even pick up olimar off the ground as well)

IMO, i believe that the match up is 50:50 or 45;55 Toonlink, just because of toonlinks Midrange game.

I say that its 50:50 as well because I believe that this match up is dependant on which stage the set is played on.

At what percentage will toonlink die from an Up Air? I would assume around 65% @.@
 

MJG

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From my prospective, when i stated those percentages, I was simply thinking of dying from those percentages when we are, per say, on the highest platform on Battlefield or when Zelda double jumps to reach us and assault us with this move. But thanks for contributing >.>

Ill test it out for when Zelda Short hops her Up Air to see a little bit more accurate percentage of death for toonlink
 

Ashraf23

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I would def. say this one is to our adv. I would say 60-40 our lead. She isn't that heavy and there is nothing she has in her arsenal that can out camp us.
 
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I would def. say this one is to our adv. I would say 60-40 our lead. She isn't that heavy and there is nothing she has in her arsenal that can out camp us.
Her Side B can give us a hard time though. The only way out of it is to shield or air dodge since we can't exactly clash with it.
 

Sosuke

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I believe all our aerials clash with it if you space them right.
 

TLMSheikant

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LOL at not clanking :/. Zair *****. I find zelda is terrible against bombs and back air. The only problem with zelda is her dtilt and usmash otherwise shes just not threatening :/. I think this is 60-40 or maybe 65-35 TL.
 

Bshaw718

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zelda'a side b isnt dangerous at all imo....u shouldn't get hit unless you mess up the timing of your air dodge.You can either shield, side step, airdodge or hit her with a projectile of your own before it gets close to you
 

MJG

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LOL at not clanking :/. Zair *****. I find zelda is terrible against bombs and back air. The only problem with zelda is her dtilt and usmash otherwise shes just not threatening :/. I think this is 60-40 or maybe 65-35 TL.
Sooooo...it basically seems like the problem in this match up for toonlink is getting into too close to zelda, which seems to be an issue for a lot of his match ups actually @.@
 

Sosuke

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Tbh, I think it's really going to be really hard for Zelda to kill you if you know how to SDI her Fsmash/Usmash.

So like, that's a pretty good advantage.
 

Power of Slash

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As I quote from an earlier discussion about SDI'ing zelda's smashes.

Fsmash is pretty easy to DI out of imo. Usmash, not so much at all. If we're caught in a Usmash more than likely it'll hit with the knockback hitbox, unless you're really beast at SDI.

If you can SDI the Usmash, chances are you probably shouldn't have gotten into the Usmash anyways if you're that preemptive, or your reflexes are reaallly nice.
 

MJG

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As I quote from an earlier discussion about SDI'ing zelda's smashes.

Fsmash is pretty easy to DI out of imo. Usmash, not so much at all. If we're caught in a Usmash more than likely it'll hit with the knockback hitbox, unless you're really beast at SDI.

If you can SDI the Usmash, chances are you probably shouldn't have gotten into the Usmash anyways if you're that preemptive, or your reflexes are reaallly nice.
I honestly didn't even think we could DI out of this move.

We need more zelda players here >.>
 

Sosuke

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I always forget which way you're supposed to SDI Usmash. Down?

And Fsmash is away?
 

MJG

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I always forget which way you're supposed to SDI Usmash. Down?

And Fsmash is away?
I know that F smash is away...im not sure on the Up Smash though

I know that Toonlink is supposed to SDI his Up Smash Down in order to avoid the 3rd hit which knocks toonlink up

Idk maybe we can test it? Maybe tomorrow though, dont feel like getting out of bed @.@
 

Power of Slash

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I'm probably doing it wrong, and I don't really face any Zeldas to know(which is why I can't contribute to this discusssion)

buuut.... I'd SDI Up + Whichever side of the Usmash I'm on. If it's dead center, there really isn't any point @_@

IF it can be DI'd out of. I'm very unsure if it can be.
 

MJG

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....Fsmash is supposed to be up...i always get out of it like that.
I guess it depends on where she catches u with it

Anyways..My friend fino and I came to the conclusion that you have to SDI this up smash up and down until you get out after testing this over and over again.

This has to be done in sort of a circular movement and it is VERY HARD

Further testing may need to be done but yea...i cant DI out of it to save my life during a set >.>
 

Reptrode

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are we including Zelda's ability to turn into a man? I think Sheik is more of a match for Toon Link than Zelda... yeah 60 - 40 Toon Link, agree, but even with Sheik I dont think it evens it up. yeah, I may even have to try the Fsmash Myself, I haven't gotten in that situition with Toon Link and Zelda before..
 

UncleSam

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Reptrode

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I figured if some one is a PKMN trainer Main, then that includes the three pokemon, but than again I could be wrong and people with Zelda mains think that sheik may be trash and useless to them...
 

UncleSam

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I figured if some one is a PKMN trainer Main, then that includes the three pokemon, but than again I could be wrong and people with Zelda mains think that sheik may be trash and useless to them...
I know Zamus mains hate using Samus and vise versa, I would think it would apply to Zelda/sheik as well.
Plus pokemon trainer, you're sort of have to use all three pokemon and they built their metagme off of that.
 

Reptrode

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yeah, I can see that, I use Pkmn trainer ever so often, and I use Charizard, won't use the other two. but I dont hate them...I would think that applys for zelda as well.
 

UncleSam

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I use squirtle and Zard, screw Ivy
as for the Fsmash thing, up and away all the time, you can get out before the last hit this way, depends on how close you are to her when you get hit tho. I find it relatively east to SDI out of because it has so many hits
 

XFadingNirvanaX

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I figured if some one is a PKMN trainer Main, then that includes the three pokemon, but than again I could be wrong and people with Zelda mains think that sheik may be trash and useless to them...
Sheik comes in handy with some of Zelda's horrible matchups. It all depends on the Zelda main. Sheik is anything but useless.

Tlink vs Zelda: Use your projectiles, tlink can and will always outcamp Zelda. The only thing she may be able to reflect is your bommerang. Din's shouldn't be a problem though she may try to sneak it in or try to pressure you with it. But for the most part, it shouldn't give you any trouble. If Zelda does try to reflect any projectile and fails *most likely to happen*, rush in for an attack while she's lagging.

If for whatever reason you try to roll into Zelda or find yourself right smack next to her, shield immediatly. Zelda will most-likely use Dsmash, NL, or Upsmash. Hit her on the cooldown.

Space yourself aginest Zelda's smashes. Becareful about DIing Upsmash, if you di out she may just use it again. I'm not sure if Tlink's Dair eats through Zelda's Upsmash.

Get Zelda in the air and you'll be ****** her just fine. Watchout for Upair. Use Zair and mix it up. Zelda can't do anything aginest any form of zair. She's too tall.

Recovery wise, you should be fine. Watchout for Din's when you're offstage. Zelda MAY try to spike you while you're preforming upB to recover but usually most don't even try it. It takes a lot of precise accuracy.

imo this matchup seems kinda close, but in Tlink's favor if he knows what he's doing.
 

Reptrode

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Sheik comes in handy with some of Zelda's horrible matchups. It all depends on the Zelda main. Sheik is anything but useless.
If I were a zelda main, I would use Shiek to my advantage, Sheik is pretty fast and can get all up in your face. My Older brother plays as sheik alot, and if he plays only as Zelda I can get him real good. but Sheik does give people a speed and power advantage. but Toon Link, still rocks.
 

MJG

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I know Zamus mains hate using Samus and vise versa, I would think it would apply to Zelda/sheik as well.
Plus pokemon trainer, you're sort of have to use all three pokemon and they built their metagme off of that.
Some Sheik Mains might switch to zelda temporarily to get an easy kill after the toonlink makes a mistake. The zelda might even change to sheik to refresh moves and once we are off stage, they will switch back. The same applies to pokemon trainer (PT is for another day)

I think a lot of this match up is stage dependent IMO.

EDIT: Need for Zelda Input >.>
 

XFadingNirvanaX

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Some Sheik Mains might switch to zelda temporarily to get an easy kill after the toonlink makes a mistake. The zelda might even change to sheik to refresh moves and once we are off stage, they will switch back. The same applies to pokemon trainer (PT is for another day)

I think a lot of this match up is stage dependent IMO.

EDIT: Need for Zelda Input >.>
It all depends on the Zelda user. I've never heard of Zelda switching to sheik just to refresh moves. Eh, I guess it could happen though. It sounds kinda cheap to do if you ask me. It seems possible but if you're fighting just a Zelda main it most-likely won't happen.

Even if tlink's offstage, it's risky to transform. If you're fighting Zelda/Sheik then obviously they'll transform into either char throughout the fight. Not because of the refreshing moves, because...well they're Zelda/Sheik mains. Switching constantly back and forth can be used as a mindgame also. But it doesn't work if the Zelda/Sheik user doesn't know how to use one or either of the chars and it's punishable.
 

Reptrode

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Even if tlink's offstage, it's risky to transform. If you're fighting Zelda/Sheik then obviously they'll transform into either char throughout the fight. Not because of the refreshing moves, because...well they're Zelda/Sheik mains. Switching constantly back and forth can be used as a mindgame also. But it doesn't work if the Zelda/Sheik user doesn't know how to use one or either of the chars and it's punishable.

I can see something like this happening, TL is going for the kill, Zelda swiches to Sheik, avoiding TL strike, and taking the opening TL left as Sheik, while TL is trying to recover, goes back to Zelda...
 

Reptrode

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Only 1 or 2? wow, but then again, for someone who cant save herself from Gannon. She's all right... I'm not too sure many zelda mains were on here, but I might be wrong...
 

UncleSam

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Space yourself aginest Zelda's smashes. Becareful about DIing Upsmash, if you di out she may just use it again. I'm not sure if Tlink's Dair eats through Zelda's Upsmash.
I hate to say it but Usmash ***** us, Dsmash and Fsmash can be easily avoided tho

Zelda's Usmash> our Dair
disjointed hitbox
and it combo's into itself

transform has invincibility frames between startup and cooldown so I can see why but, even when I use Zelda, when I transform I end up losing a stock if the Zelda main can't use sheik there is hardly a reason to use it... but that's their problem
 

copacetic

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doesn't our dair go through the upsmash occasionally? I think it depends on when during the move you attack
 

XFadingNirvanaX

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I hate to say it but Usmash ***** us, Dsmash and Fsmash can be easily avoided tho

Zelda's Usmash> our Dair
disjointed hitbox
and it combo's into itself

transform has invincibility frames between startup and cooldown so I can see why but, even when I use Zelda, when I transform I end up losing a stock if the Zelda main can't use sheik there is hardly a reason to use it... but that's their problem
doesn't our dair go through the upsmash occasionally? I think it depends on when during the move you attack
I think D-air does go through Upsmash sometimes. I've gotten ko'd from it while performing upsmash. Maybe it depends on Zelda's and Tlink's timing? I'm not sure since I've only played Tlinks on wi-fi. It could be a wi-fi thing. Iunno.
 

Kaffei

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I use Zelda.
The only problem I have with TL is his Zair, & the fact that I can't LK him easily because he's so short.
 
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I think D-air does go through Upsmash sometimes. I've gotten ko'd from it while performing upsmash. Maybe it depends on Zelda's and Tlink's timing? I'm not sure since I've only played Tlinks on wi-fi. It could be a wi-fi thing. Iunno.
Then again, Toon Links shouldn't be using Dair. It's waaaay too laggy. At the same time, we CAN'T get hit by Usmash, so it's best to avoid it. Toon Links should work on not being above Zelda, but when he is, it's best to throw a bomb, or just improvise somehow. Making contact with it is risky.
 
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