The *New* Ness Match-Up Compendium: Meta Knight/Final Destination

As players of a lower tier character, we're often overlooked and underestimated in tournaments, money matches, and sometimes even friendly brawls. As such, our opponent expects less from us then they would expect from a Meta Knight mainer or what have you. Such overconfidence is not without warrant, for Ness shouldn't pose that much of a threat at highly competitive levels. What many players may not know is the character Ness: his strengths, weaknesses, and unique characteristics. This paricular niche in the metagame, known commonly as "match-up ignorance" or "low tier advantage", gives Ness players a little upper hand in combat. Most players, as previously stated, will no little or no information on their Ness opponent, putting the Ness player at a distinct advantage.

All players, even pros, often don't fully analyze match-ups. The purpose of this thread is to give the Ness player every tool needed in order to combat their opponent the "right way". Spamming forward air all day will only get you so far against some characters, and down air won't always be an opportune move to spike an opponent. Knowing every match-up in and out will be the only true way to make sure that you aren't caught off guard by your opponents and forced to adjust on the spot. I encourage all who read to contribute in whatever field they feel knowledgeable. After all, not everyone can know everything about all 35 or so match-ups in Brawl. Not yet at least.

This guide will be seperated into several different sections, including character specific match-ups, counterpick options, ban suggestions, and stage discussion, in order to make this guide easily accesible to all. The character specific match-up section will include information on specific match-ups (obviously) with a list of some important Ness advanced techniques that will help in the match and some advanced techniques of the opposing character. There will also be a pros and cons section, a part discussing the advantages/disadvantages to playing offensively/defensively, and a small list of counterpick and ban stages. The list will be organized according to tier placement, so use the tier list as a reference point. The next section, the stage discussion, will go into detail about the advantages and disadvantages of each stage as well as a short description of how a Ness player should utilize the stage formation in order to win matches. There will be a quick reference in this section as well, displaying the characters this stage should be counterpicked and banned against.

I. Character Match-Ups

A. S Tier

1. Meta Knight

2. Snake

3. Wario

4. Falco

5. Diddy Kong

6. King Dedede


B. A Tier

1. Marth

2. Mr. Game & Watch

3. Pikachu

4. Olimar

5. Ice Climbers

6. R.O.B.

7. Kirby


II. Stage Information

A. Neutral Stages

1. Final Destionation


2. Battlefield


3. Smashville


4. Lylat Cruise


5. Pokemon Stadium 1

Please tell me this isn't going to be an export thread.

It might be an export, but most other character boards are going to list grab releases and tell us how bad Ness sucks.

MK:
On-stage: Either even, or 55:45 MK's favor
Off-stage: 65:35 MK's favor
Overall: 60:40 MK's favor

Most of our metagame is built around knowing how to fight MK, so I won't go into too much detail on this. PKT is a good harassment tool if you have good range between you and MK, and it's good as a poke when he's off-stage - especially if he glides. Also you can condition MK to think you are going to PKT him off-stage and get him to tornado eventually; if you predict a tornado you can kill him with PK Flash (which kills him at like 30%). PK Fire, as laggy as it is, is actually better than usual in this matchup because MK can't punish a grounded PK Fire if properly spaced. I would avoid using aerial PKF usually though because you'll just eat a shuttle loop.

Shuttle loop is one of the most difficult parts of this matchup because our fair - while great - has a blindspot near the bottom which happens to be the perfect angle for shuttle loop to hit you from below. If you get predictable with fair you're going to eat shuttle loops. If your opponent gets predictable with shuttle loop though remember that dair can actually trade with it.

On-stage - use a lot of nair out of shield, sh-fair, sh-dair (to punish spot dodges and trade with shuttle loop), and grabs. fthrow and uthrow are your ideal low % throws, obviously save bthrow to kill, and never dthrow in this matchup. Dthrow is terrible, any silly combo ideas you might have MK will easily stuff with something faster than whatever your dthrow followup is. Uair unfortunately isn't that great in this matchup because of MK's really fast dair, but you can use it to punish the ending of a tornado or shuttle loop (see: Fiction vs Tyrant/M2K, Wario's uair is similar in this regard) from below.

Overall, keep your distance, stop approaches with dair and pivot PK Fire, and try to stay on the stage . Also never recover from below the stage. Seriously, if you try this you should be required by law to just put down your controller until Ness falls to his doom - it's not any worse than what's going to happen to you anyway. Always recover high in this matchup - use your incredible free-fall maneuverability and MK's horrible air speed to your advantage to try to avoid punishment from recovering high. Sure you might get punished sometimes, but if you try to recover low in this matchup you will get gimped.

Edit - I forgot something important. Don't roll out of shield. Ever. Especially through MK.

Also - PKT > Planking

****, I went into too much detail.

Good Neutral Stages - FD > Smashville > Battlefield
Bad Neutrals - Lylat > Yoshi's
Good Counterpicks - Pirate Ship > PS2 > Delfino > Castle Siege
Stage ban - Yoshi's

I have a stage thread.

AvariceX said:

****, I went into too much detail.

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No way! Thanks a ton for the input!

Man of Popsicle said:

I have a stage thread.

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I know, but you only have short descriptions. I plan on adding counter/bans, which is a crucial part of match-up discussion, and is therefore an essential component to this thread.

I personally like yoshi's island (B)...... I'M WEIRD!!!!

MK matchup annoys me because he realistically can kill anyone at low percents, and ness isn't the only one completely subject to gimpage...... Overall is 55:45 or 60:40 with MK advantage, but i'm not sure. on one hand i do really well against meta knight on stage, enough to feel as if the onstage matchup is even, but on the other hand i do TERRIBLY off stage against him and I don't know what happens. i'm trying to see which one weighs out to be more realistic, but i would say..... 57.5:42.5 with MK advantage.... I'm undecided... and can't go into detail right now.

Stages are in order from most liked to least liked.
Fav'rit Nutrailz: Smashville, FD, YI(B), Battlefield, ....over here is also lylat, but that's last.
CP: Norfair, PS2, Brinstar, Delfino, Pirate Ship (its basically banned anywhere i go, so i can't pick it)
STAGE BANS!!!!!: Lylat, Jungle Japes, .... Yoshi's Island (B) depending on character.

I'm definitely leaning towards 55/45 MK, maybe someone else will change my mind.

Anyways, our Fair out-ranges all of MK's aerials, except for Uair i think, if we retreat it. I used to have trouble with MK before I just started retreating my Fairs.

As Avarice already said, PK Fire is very useful in this matchup.

I disagree with never using d-throw, however. I'd be more inclined to say never try to air combo after d-throw. MK will punish any attempts to combo him after the throw, but if he tries to attack you and you're grounded, you could grab him or possibly Pivot PK if you predicted the attack. Your other throws are more useful in this matchup, but don't forget you have d-throw and its situational uses.

I haven't fought enough MKs to make a stage thing here, but Avarice basically covered it anyway.

Avarice: Why is Lylat bad for this matchup? I love the stage, and the tilting helps PK Fire. Is there something I don't know that hurts Ness a lot here?

1337-Zero said:

I disagree with never using d-throw, however. I'd be more inclined to say never try to air combo after d-throw. MK will punish any attempts to combo him after the throw, but if he tries to attack you and you're grounded, you could grab him or possibly Pivot PK if you predicted the attack. Your other throws are more useful in this matchup, but don't forget you have d-throw and its situational uses.

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Don't forget pkt. However if they use dair to stop any approaches after a dthrow i think that will cancel out pkts' head.

Also eagle, you're not the only one; I like yoshis island. Maybe not against mk but I do like it more than other ness mains seem to give it credit for.

NintenJoe said:

I know, but you only have short descriptions. I plan on adding counter/bans, which is a crucial part of match-up discussion, and is therefore an essential component to this thread.

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I know, I'm doing all of the stages.
And _clinton made a counterpick list, and I'm planning on adding it to the thread, infact, I think I will now.

I suggest going norfair vs. fludd as you can just dj to any of the platforms. On other stage I usually get ***** as ness when i fight fludd so norfair would be the best choice.

Hmm, I seem to **** fludd easily all the time...

Now for stage input:

Pros:
Final Destination is an excellent neutral for Ness. It gives Ness room for PKT mindgames, PKT2, PK Fire, just about anything. The ceiling is quite high, so Ness wont have to worry too much about off-the-top kills. The edges allow really weird tricks, especially the right ledge (You can PKT2 from the right ledge back onto the stage at almost ground level). Of course, the lips might screw with your recovery, but PK Ricochet and backwards PKT2 can overcome this. The floor is completely flat, so PK Fire will hit players on the ledge if spaced properly.

Cons:
Uair kills wont happen very often here because of the high ceiling. Gimping Ness isn't very difficult on Final D, since there are no natural barriers to assist Ness (such as the support ghost on YI) or hazards to prevent the opponent from going after him. Most chaingrabbers also reign supreme on FD, so you don't want to face them here. Opponents with non-absorbable projectiles are also a pain.

Final Verdict: As a neutral: 8.5/10
As a CP: 8.0/10

On Meta,

Maybe it is just because he is one of the top players in the Nation. But i lived in San Angelo during the school year and played with Dojo's MetaKnight daily. While i love PK fire He almost ALWAYS power-shielded it. I would mix it up in attempts to not be predictable, however more times than not he would. I am not saying do not do it period, more of pick your times carefully because if it gets power-shielded you are most likely going to get punished. It is hard for me to say what works and does not work due to it seeming like nothing worked against him, however i do realize i was playing a top notch player who never will make the same mistake twice, Retreating Fairs were effective however do not deal out much damage. I can FULLY agree NEVER recover low, your best bet is to never put yourself in a position to have to PK thunder for recovery period. ( i have to go, i will try to contribute more later) ( if this was even contributing???)

imo final destination is terrible for ness.

I'm on the fence about FD. In my opinion, neutrals go like this.

• Smashville
• Battlefield
• Final Destination
• Lylat
• Yoshi's

For CPs, take MK to Halberd or FD. Ban RC.

We here also put Delphino and Pokémon Staduim 1 in the neutrals.


Final Destination is a good stage for Ness, but it can be better for other characters, like Diddy and DDD.
It's a big stage and you have room to do many things. There aren't platforms that stop the PK thunder mindgames. The pointed edge is an obstacle for many characters but not for Ness. (Unless you go under the stage, which you shouldn't do)

The stage has far blastzones and that means you and your opponents will survive more (if you correctly DI). Don't backthrow too early here.

And that's it about Final.

Just a quick reminder that you shouldn't counterpick Delfino Plaza when going up against Peach as all she'll have to do is her grab release on you.

what grab releases does meta knight have on Ness?

Grab release grab release grab release down tilt.

This is what I have thus far. Feel free to disagree or correct anything that you feel isn't right:

Ness vs. Meta Knight

Pros:
- Ness has several attacks that cancel mach tornado.
- Ness' out of shield options are very useful against Meta Knight.
- Ness' on stage approach is pretty good against Meta Knight.
- Ness can camp against Meta Knight moderately sucessfully.
- Ness is one of the few characters that can deal with planking.
- Ness can kill Meta Knight at lower percentages with his killing moves.

Cons:
- Meta Knight has a grab release chain grab on Ness.
- Shuttle Loop hits Ness' Fair blind spot, preventing Fair spam.
- Meta Knight can gimp Ness easily.
- Meta Knight has very little move lag that can be punished.
- Meta Knight is fast and powerful, allowing him to punish most mistakes made by Ness.
- Meta Knight has amazing shield pressure moves.

Ground/On Stage Game: Ness' Fair should be used sparingly because of MK's shuttle loop OoS option. Mix up approaches but make sure that you leave enough space in between Ness and Meta Knight after applying shield pressure so he can't shuttle loop. In terms of defensive options, spacing pivot PK Fire is Ness' best choice. If spaced correctly, it's very difficult for Meta Knight to punish this tactic, and is near impossible when he's hit with PK Fire itself. Aerial PK Fire is discouraged however, because it can be easily punished by Meta Knight's aerials and shuttle loop. PK Thunder will help with airbourne Meta Knight's because their options are limited. If an airdodged is forced, loop the PK Thunder and tailwhip into a hit with the head. If Meta Knight uses mach tornado (and this is what you should try for), the PK Thunder will be cancelled but you can follow up easily as long as you space well.

Air/Above Stage Game: When both characters are in the air, Ness has the advantage in most circumstances. Fair outprioritizes and outranges most, if not all, of Meta Knight's aerials, making Meta Knight fairly easy to handle while he's aribourne. Ness' Uair, however, doesn't outprioritize nor does it out speed Meta Knight's Dair, amking this usually helpful killing move almost useless. Without proper and accurate information, that's all the information available without "theory crafting".

Ledge/Off Stage Game: You'll want to stay on the stage all the time, but you'll inevitably be pushed off at one point or another. Fair will protect Ness most of the time, but Meta Knight will do everything in his power to gimp. Recover above the stage all the time and don't drop down and utilize the easy angle PK Thunder sets Ness up for. You won't need to worry about mach tornado and shuttle loop as much off stage, but it's essential that you stay above Meta Knight all the time off the stage. PK Thunder will stop planking, which is a little relief. Gimping Meta Knight would be theory craft, so that's it for now.

Shield Game: Mach Tornado and Meta Knight's Dtilt are terrific for shield pressure and shuttle loop is an insane out of shield option. When being pressured, DO NOT ROLL. Meta Knight's speed and mach tornado will ensure punishment in every direction. Instead, use FH Nair, SH Dair, and SH Fair out of shield to either space Meta Knight or exchange a hit with his shuttle loop. Shield grabbing will only work after aerials, so don't even try to shield grab his Dtilt, you'll just end up getting getting hit again and possibly tripped. When you do get grabs, use Fthrow and Uthrow in order to make space. Dthrow won't even get close to allowing follow ups and it won't send Meta Knight very far, so avoid using it in this match-up.

His grab release chaingrab is difficult though.

I guess from those pros and cons... ness has good advatages on MK but mk has much more punishing advantages. I migh be wrong but i'd have to say mk has 60:40 or 55:45 mk advantage.

Man of Popsicle said:

His grab release chaingrab is difficult though.

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Good Meta Knights will undoubtedly pick it up quickly.

R@vyn said:

No its not. You grab and pummel. If Ness ground releases (which he most likely will), you take like one step forward and regrab him. It's like 20%-30% across FD depending on how fast the Ness player breaks out.

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Could you estimate how many grabs that would be? I don't play many meta knights so I wouldn't know.

Meta knights pummel is jump breakable.

If you time it right. On lower percents look for the point right after Mk is pulling back his wings early in the grab and press everything you can while rotating..

On higher wait for him to pummel like 3 or 2 times depending then do that...

R@vyn said:

No its not. You grab and pummel. If Ness ground releases (which he most likely will), you take like one step forward and regrab him. It's like 20%-30% across FD depending on how fast the Ness player breaks out.

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That's a nice bit of info. Thanks!

What sort of metaknight wastes their time with it though. I doubt more than 5% of them would use it in a match, if even that many know.
Like with snake. I've never, ever, been grab released -> utilt.
I'd put it at 55-45 mk's advantage.

How do we deal with MK's aerial psuedo L-Cancel Dsmash deal?

keep shielding...... then either pivot pkfire or run at him with your shield up and wait for him to stop spotdodging or dsmashing and grab. then there's a chance of dtilt. yoyo is also a good option, but im not sure if it will hit him from the push on the dsmash against your shield. spotdodging the dsmash will most likely be a bad option because of it's speed. pivot pkfire. or jump right into it.......... but really lets ask FOW..... wherever he is.

in order of best options (IMO), i would say.... to follow up AFTER the dsmash...

(0. shield, but dtilt = shield breaking possibility)
1. pivot pkfire
2. dashgrab/pivot grab if he spotdodges and you run past him
3. usmash (maybe but rarely dsmash)
4. SH Nair to something else either DJ'd or double aerial shuffle'd
5. retreated fairs..... but you probably won't hit.... its okay.
6. run away and force him to come to you.
7. well timed dair (he can utilt and uair you, so probly not)
8. run away and start randomly dashdancing (i would trip)
9. run away w/ PKT mindgames..... (tornado)
10. charge bat right next to him.
11. PSI Magnet right next to him
12. PK Flash right next to him
13. stand still and do nothing...

I know i missed something...

anything else you guys want to add? I'm going to be doing my write up soon.

ummm Dair is really good against MK... and it trades with Shuttle Loop. Uair is not very good against MK.

That's really all I got =/

Oh, and don't spot-dodge MK's dsmash, it just puts you back in the same situation you were in before he downsmashed; you don't have a real answer for MK's dsmash out of a spot-dodge and he can just dsmash again pretty safely... so just avoid being in a position where he can dsmash you as much as you can.

I know, it still affects the match-up, but not (or at least it shouldn't) drastically. Let's say mario has an infinite on MK but you have to press a button every five frames on the nose. Does that change the match up? minimally. Does it make mario a hard counter to MK? Absolutely not.

^MK has to grab Ness first though, and from what I've seen Ness can make that very difficult. An experienced IC player can CG at any percent for a KO, but that will only work if they get the grab in the first place. We're less worried about the loss of a stock due to a CG to death than the actual grab that starts it off (since the CG is inescapable, if it wasn't our priorities would be different). Quite a few Nesses, myself included, believe this matchup is no worse than 55/45 MK advantage. A 0-Death CG doesn't change a matchup drastically if the character is difficult to grab.

Sorry for butting in Mop, but I guess I'm allowed to since this is a discussion thread.

55-45 sounds about right, how can we deal with mks d-tilt spam?

OoS n-air usually gets outprioritised by his f- air, and rolling aint a option.

Robin1613 said:

55-45 sounds about right, how can we deal with mks d-tilt spam?

OoS n-air usually gets outprioritised by his f- air, and rolling aint a option.

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Pk Fire? Grab? SH dair?

Just throwing some things out there, I'm not an expert on the matchup.

1337-Zero said:

Sorry for butting in Mop, but I guess I'm allowed to since this is a discussion thread.

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No, it's fine.
And I like your example.
If it were that game changing IC's would be the best and all of their match-ups would be 100-0.