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The Official Ike Video Critique Thread

theeboredone

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
12,399
Location
Houston, TX
Penta told me about this video, good games comboking, yeah that was a hilarious ending, I should have thought twice, but Ganon is way too much fun :) Great IKE!
Agree, Ganon is too much fun...especially if you're good enough to use him in MM :laugh:

Great Ike? Don't go there bro...just don't. For your own safety, -hands flame shield-
 

FrznSaber

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
367
Location
Ridgewood,Queens NYC

metroid1117

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
3,786
Location
Chester, IL
Has been a long time since my last post., around december 7th which is the same time I stopped using Ike for competitive gaming. Seeing that I'm going somewhere else for a fresh start, I've decided to start fresh with Ike and see how far I'll get.

Round 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7n2s_E9onE
Round 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcWaQaDNZ-c&feature=channel

Frankly I feel ashamed sharing these videos, but pride is something worth sacrificing to achieve greatness I suppose.
Round 1

0:09 - Nice spacing on the FTilt, but a FAir would've been safer because it takes less time to end (30 frames of landing lag versus 41 frames of wind-down lag). Also, the reward for hitting with FTilt is reduced at low %s because it cannot set up for edgeguards or kill; it's just not really worth using that early in the match.
0:13 - BAir is much quicker than FTilt; in fact, NAir -> BAir is one of Ike's few true combos. Again, it's too early to bring out FTilt; stick to using attacks that will be most likely to hit in order to rack up damage, then you can take a few risks and go for kills with FTilt or other attacks.
0:35 - Rather than being fancy with jab -> pivot grab (which is not guaranteed), you should stick to faster options like jab -> running grab (which also is not guaranteed, but moreso than jab -> pivot grab).
0:46 - Be wary of using walk-off FAir; if you miss, your opponent has an opportunity to edgehog you unless you timed it so that you would land on the stage.
0:57 - BAir out of shield would've been great here.
1:01 - Why did you run away from the edge when your opponent was getting back? Also, you could've tried to intercept him with a walk-off DAir or dropping down and then BAir'ing him into the stage.
1:14 - Keep in mind that as a projectile user, ROB can just get a free gyro or laser whenever you try to space him out.
1:26 - Your FAir wasn't as well-spaced as it was before; refrain from using such a laggy move when your opponent is under you and resort to a quicker option like NAir or airdodging+fastfalling.
1:30 - Walk-off DAir would've been great here. When you jabbed him, you could've tried going for a jab -> UTilt or BAir for the kill.
1:41 - When Ike is recovering from high, his safest option is always airdodge and fastfall so he can attempt to Aether safely from below the stage.
1:56 - Nice try waiting for the airdodge; he had done it before, so you expected it to happen again.
2:10 - Watch your spacing; you got hit because you jumped into him rather than retreating with FAir.
2:20 - It was clear that you were waiting for him to airdodge back, but you should punish him with a quicker move than FTilt.
2:28 - If you knew he was going to roll, then you should've FSmashed instead of jabbing; if you FSmashed because he rolled, then it was a bad idea; FSmash is too slow to hit oppoents after you see them roll.
3:16 - Nice one - you covered his options well and punished him for it.
3:55 - Watch your spacing...
4:01 - Quick Draw?

General comments - Work on your edgeguarding; ROB is difficult to edgeguard because of his great recovery, but you can still get him with walk-off DAirs if he comes from below, Aetherspikes if he tries coming from above, and waiting him out if he comes higher than Aether's range. The easiest way to do a walk-off DAir is by setting your C-stick to "Attack" rather than "Smash" so that you can avoid auto-fastfalling your DAirs. If you don't want to give up SDI'ing with the C-stick, then you can *lightly* tilt down and then C-stick down when you run off the stage; however, that is still risky. Your playstyle is too FTilt-happy for my taste; then again, that's coming from someone who does not use it at all. You should, however, save it for only when your opponent is at middle or high %s so that it either sets up for an edgeguard or a kill, rather than using it at low %s and not gaining a high reward from it. Also, you need to airdodge more when you recover; Ike's recovery isn't that good, but you can still fastfall+airdodge when coming from above or jumping and airdodging to avoid incoming attacks. One last comment - sometimes you mess up your spacing on FAir when your opponent is rushing you or when you try to lunge in and attack. Refrain from using FAir when your opponent is underneath you or in your face and use NAir, which has less landing lag.

One last thing (for real this time :laugh:) - you had some nice jab canceling moments, but you can still be more creative and throw in somethings like jab -> UTilt or jab -> BAir at high %s; this can really mess up with your opponent's DI and score you some kills if they are caught unawares. Keep it up with your Ike; I hope you get back up to shape and even further than that.
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
3,786
Location
Chester, IL
THis is me caught on tape at the last tournament I've participated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvywmPc45TI

Please follow the links to watch the whole set and please comment!
1st match

0:54 - Personally, I think it's better to press A for each individual jab; it gives you more control over your jab cancels and if you miss the first one, you won't be left as open (which was why you got hit).
1:07 - Jumping from the edge and then continuing to edgeguard him would've been a better option than getting up and stalking him from the ground; Pit can't use his up+B again if you hit him out of it, so if you jumped from the edge (not edgehop though) and hit with a BAir he might've died.
2:12 - You might be trying to break out of the grab, but at high %s DI'ing properly is more important.
2:33 - No BThrow -> dash attack? FThrow -> dash attack isn't as guaranteed.
2:41 - If you're going to do the jab combo, at least do jab -> jab combo; jab -> jab is a true combo, so unless your opponent is good at SDI then they'll get hit by it. Also, you probably would've been able to kill him with jab -> UTilt if it connected.
2:47 - If your opponent is at a high %, you won't have to worry about them breaking out for a bit; you have plenty of time to do 3 pummels at the very least to tag on some extra damage and freshen up some moves. The only time you wouldn't pummel at high % is to quickly throw your opponent for a kill (to mess up their DI), but Ike doesn't have any killing throws.
3:26 - Instead of retreating, a BAir would've been better.
3:35 - The second hit of the jab combo doesn't yield as much combo-ability as the first hit; it's safer to do jab1 -> jab combo than jab2 -> jab combo.
3:43 - Nice read! It's probably more practical to wait until your opponent is at a higher % before using it, but hopefully it'll shake him up a little.
3:54 - So far, every time he's used a grounded up+B, he used FTilt after it. You should've caught on and instinctively DI up every time you leave yourself open and you see him land from the up+B. You were probably caught by surprise since you expected to hit him with the FAir, but you should still be prepared to DI if you don't hear that gunshot from landing a hit.
4:29 - In my opinion, your Ike is becoming too ground-based at this point; you've been using UTilt a lot this stock, and now you're throwing in FTilts. Both are pretty powerful moves, but they're also pretty slow and easy to punish; they should be saved until higher %s, where they can either kill or set up for a kill.
4:45 - Nice jab canceling; just make sure that you don't turn around during the UTilt. You were probably expecting him to DI behind you, but on the last jab he DI'ed away from you instead of into you.
5:28 - You could've tried spiking him through the platform after the BThrow; it's really easy to land spikes that way.
5:54 - That taunt was well-deserved haha, nice comeback.

General comments - You did a good job of mixing up your jab combos at the end; you could be a little bit more creative though and do jab -> grab as well as jab -> BAir (for when they DI up or jump out). You did a great job of spacing your FAirs - however, most of the time you used FAir to space you used it as a wall and it didn't seem like you were trying to hit them. Pit can't really counterattack if he shields a tipped FAir; otherwise, he can just arrow you. Try and hit with tipped FAirs rather than just maintaining a defensive position.

You should also be a bit more aggressive when edgeguarding Pit; it's difficult to edgeguard him because he can shoot you with arrows, but when you do get a chance you can screw him over with things like walk-off FAir (which you did very nicely in the last few seconds) or just jumping out with FAir. I just thought of this now so it might not work, but you can try jumping with your back turned, purposely get hit by an arrow, then jump and BAir him. When Pit is coming from below, you can be more aggressive with spiking, and when he's coming from above, you can be more aggressive with jumping from the edge and BAir'ing or, if he's really too high, Aether'ing.

Other than that, you played pretty well in this match - I'll be sure to watch more of the set later. Great job.
 

Nysyarc

Last King of Hollywood
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I'll try my best to critique the first match for you.

0:02 - That turn-around jab must have been a mistake. You had the right idea with jabbing instead of grabbing though.
0:07 - Bad time to use QD; this early in the match (assuming you haven't played him before) you won't be able to read his approaches, so QD is the worst possible option.
0:18 - That was a bad idea by him to remain on the ledge and give you another shot at spiking him, nice job making good on it.
0:26 - Instead of a full hop there, a short hop with a retreating Fair would have been better since he was approaching quickly and applying pressure. Retreating Fair is great for getting people to back off for a bit.
0:28 - Always watch your spacing, Ike doesn't do well with jumping straight into people.
0:30 - Jab would have been better there because you could have combo'd into a grab for even more damage.
0:32 - Fsmash isn't usually the best for edge-guarding Falco, it's hard to time it for phantasm and it's easily punished. If you think he will phantasm onto the stage, it's safer to do an ACd Bair to hit him out of it; less punishable and it comes out much quicker.
0:39 - Nice DA, people usually aren't expecting it's reach, take advantage of that.
0:42 - Make sure you know how far your opponent's DA carries them, a pivot jab would have gotten him there.
0:44 - You shouldn't use Dair while falling down on someone over the stage very often, if at all. It was pretty obvious he intended to do an Uair, so you could have moved to the side and Baird him to out-prioritize it.
0:51 - Nice Usmash.
0:54 - Remember, in any situations where you can grab an opponent to punish, jabs are usually better because you can combo into a grab.
0:58 - Again with the Fsmash, not the best option.
1:06 - I guess it must have been a late reflex, but obviously spot-dodging immediately after shielding an attack isn't a good idea :laugh:
1:20 - *Shudder* I saw that one coming as soon as you put up your shield; remember to never attempt a shield-grab near the edge of the stage as Ike.
1:31 - Nice waiting and reading there, he used Fire Bird because he thought you were expecting a phantasm, but you got him good.
1:41 - Not the best time to charge Fsmash, use it to punish rolls and such in the heat of the action, but he was taking it easy there and trying to read you.
1:45 - I take it that Dsmash was a failed DA :chuckle:
1:47 - Try not to hold your shield on idly for too long, especially against Falco at low percents, that's asking to get chain-grabbed.
1:52 - Nice OoS jabs, but if you canceled after the second jab you probably could have gotten more in; you need every % at this point.
2:01 - If you notice your first jab gets dodged/powershielded, that's a good time to cancel and do another first jab or throw a grab out. Finishing all three hits will just get you punished.
2:04 - Should have turned and jabbed there , he likes to roll behind you a lot so even an Usmash would have been better in that situation.
2:13 - Nice read and Usmash.
2:16 - Way too early for the Aether, even if he hadn't double-jumped it wouldn't have caught him. Also bad spot to use Aether, empty hopping and trying to bait an airdodge would have been better, then you could have punished with an Utilt.
2:32 - Again, careful when you choose to finish your three jabs.
2:40 - There really isn't much you can do about a Falco edge-guarding like that except try to sweet-spot Aether, or SDI in and use Aether right after you're hit to throw him off.
2:44 - He knew you would roll at that point, make sure you vary your ledge game often. Ledge-drop -> double jump will get you up on the stage quickly and ready to use some jabs.
2:49 - That was another good time for a sliding Usmash, would have gotten you the KO.
2:57 - A walk-off Dair as soon as the landing lag from Aether ended would have sealed the deal there too.
3:03 - Looks like you had time to get a shield up there, Falco likes to smash out of his jabs as a finisher, so always try to DI down and shield a.s.a.p.

All around it was a pretty well-played match. You should use more Fair and Nair for spacing though, and practice your spacing a lot. Try to slowly eliminate things like Ftilt and DA from your spacing game, because they're very situational and not the best as general spacing moves. Try to work more jab cancels into your game, and try to punish with jabs more often than grabs.

You had some nice reads and you punished well with your Usmash, but be careful of Fsmash as an edge-guarder, especially against characters with fast (if not very good) recoveries, because it can be hard to time and if you miss, it's easy to punish. Also, good job on not rolling a lot, it's good to lose the habit of rolling early because it's a bad habit. Be careful when shield-canceling dashes that you don't overshoot your target or hold your shield on for too long though.

Hope that helped :)


:034:
 

King of Sack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
213
Location
B.C. Canada
I'll try my best to critique the first match for you.

0:02 - That turn-around jab must have been a mistake. You had the right idea with jabbing instead of grabbing though.
0:07 - Bad time to use QD; this early in the match (assuming you haven't played him before) you won't be able to read his approaches, so QD is the worst possible option.
0:18 - That was a bad idea by him to remain on the ledge and give you another shot at spiking him, nice job making good on it.
0:26 - Instead of a full hop there, a short hop with a retreating Fair would have been better since he was approaching quickly and applying pressure. Retreating Fair is great for getting people to back off for a bit.
0:28 - Always watch your spacing, Ike doesn't do well with jumping straight into people.
0:30 - Jab would have been better there because you could have combo'd into a grab for even more damage.
0:32 - Fsmash isn't usually the best for edge-guarding Falco, it's hard to time it for phantasm and it's easily punished. If you think he will phantasm onto the stage, it's safer to do an ACd Bair to hit him out of it; less punishable and it comes out much quicker.
0:39 - Nice DA, people usually aren't expecting it's reach, take advantage of that.
0:42 - Make sure you know how far your opponent's DA carries them, a pivot jab would have gotten him there.
0:44 - You shouldn't use Dair while falling down on someone over the stage very often, if at all. It was pretty obvious he intended to do an Uair, so you could have moved to the side and Baird him to out-prioritize it.
0:51 - Nice Usmash.
0:54 - Remember, in any situations where you can grab an opponent to punish, jabs are usually better because you can combo into a grab.
0:58 - Again with the Fsmash, not the best option.
1:06 - I guess it must have been a late reflex, but obviously spot-dodging immediately after shielding an attack isn't a good idea :laugh:
1:20 - *Shudder* I saw that one coming as soon as you put up your shield; remember to never attempt a shield-grab near the edge of the stage as Ike.
1:31 - Nice waiting and reading there, he used Fire Bird because he thought you were expecting a phantasm, but you got him good.
1:41 - Not the best time to charge Fsmash, use it to punish rolls and such in the heat of the action, but he was taking it easy there and trying to read you.
1:45 - I take it that Dsmash was a failed DA :chuckle:
1:47 - Try not to hold your shield on idly for too long, especially against Falco at low percents, that's asking to get chain-grabbed.
1:52 - Nice OoS jabs, but if you canceled after the second jab you probably could have gotten more in; you need every % at this point.
2:01 - If you notice your first jab gets dodged/powershielded, that's a good time to cancel and do another first jab or throw a grab out. Finishing all three hits will just get you punished.
2:04 - Should have turned and jabbed there , he likes to roll behind you a lot so even an Usmash would have been better in that situation.
2:13 - Nice read and Usmash.
2:16 - Way too early for the Aether, even if he hadn't double-jumped it wouldn't have caught him. Also bad spot to use Aether, empty hopping and trying to bait an airdodge would have been better, then you could have punished with an Utilt.
2:32 - Again, careful when you choose to finish your three jabs.
2:40 - There really isn't much you can do about a Falco edge-guarding like that except try to sweet-spot Aether, or SDI in and use Aether right after you're hit to throw him off.
2:44 - He knew you would roll at that point, make sure you vary your ledge game often. Ledge-drop -> double jump will get you up on the stage quickly and ready to use some jabs.
2:49 - That was another good time for a sliding Usmash, would have gotten you the KO.
2:57 - A walk-off Dair as soon as the landing lag from Aether ended would have sealed the deal there too.
3:03 - Looks like you had time to get a shield up there, Falco likes to smash out of his jabs as a finisher, so always try to DI down and shield a.s.a.p.

All around it was a pretty well-played match. You should use more Fair and Nair for spacing though, and practice your spacing a lot. Try to slowly eliminate things like Ftilt and DA from your spacing game, because they're very situational and not the best as general spacing moves. Try to work more jab cancels into your game, and try to punish with jabs more often than grabs.

You had some nice reads and you punished well with your Usmash, but be careful of Fsmash as an edge-guarder, especially against characters with fast (if not very good) recoveries, because it can be hard to time and if you miss, it's easy to punish. Also, good job on not rolling a lot, it's good to lose the habit of rolling early because it's a bad habit. Be careful when shield-canceling dashes that you don't overshoot your target or hold your shield on for too long though.

Hope that helped :)


:034:
Yes, it did. :)

The unfortunate truth is that I knew about the up smash towards 2:40 but... we were playing those games for critiquing purposes and I had to lighten up a bit or I would have won. I even said to him towards the end: "C'mon PC! You have to win!"

I am not johning. I lost fair and square.

I would love for someone to critique the 2nd game too. :)
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
3,786
Location
Chester, IL
Lol, I would but... so... tired... :urg:

If no one else does by tomorrow morning I will I guess.


:034:
Lol I'm feeling bored... I'll do it :p.

Max(Ike) vs PC(Ike)

0:06 - If you're trying to hit an Ike out of Aether, FAir is a much better move for the job than NAir. BAir also works well if they go above the edge to try and hit you.
0:08 - Even if you had done it on the right side, DSmash is a bad move to use especially at lower %s; it has pretty bad knockback and ending lag, so your opponent might've even been able to counterattack if you had hit with it. Save it for higher %s where it'll land a kill.
0:20 - Interesting grab release to set up the edgeguard.
0:59 - In a situation like that, you can either just keep shielding, shield grab, or Aether out of shield; you were probably dropping your shield down for a jab, but it's safer to do either of the options mentioned before because you either stay in your shield or attack directly out of shield.
1:04 - If you're using QD to get back onto the stage itself (not the edge), try to land just above the ground so you don't go into freefall.
1:22 - Nice jab -> BAir attempt. Since he was at such high %s however, you could've just done an UTilt after that first jab instead of the kick.
1:43 - Wow... I have to start experimenting with grab releases.
1:53 - It's cool to be flashy, but at such high % you can just end it with a FAir or BAir.

General comments: You played well in this match; you didn't make too many blatant errors or expose bad habits. You even taught me some grab release tricks that I should try out next time I play haha. However, there is still one little thing to knit-pick on. You know the concept of mixing up your jab combos, but you don't really do so often except for that one part where you tried for jab -> BAir (my guess, judging from that one scene where you guys kept clashing jabs, is that you're holding A to do the jab combo). Do more jab mix-ups like jab -> jab combo, not completing the jab combo to screw up their DI, or jab -> grab.

Just as a reminder for the next time you post a video in this thread - try to post videos where the game was close and you were playing at your best. Even though you lost this match, it's because you had been dominant for pretty much the whole match and started messing around. Posting videos where the match was close and you were playing at your best allows us to pick out more of your mistakes, thus being more helpful to you. You play well though, you definitely know what you're doing and I hope we see more videos from you in the future.
 

King of Sack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
213
Location
B.C. Canada
Lol I'm feeling bored... I'll do it :p.

Max(Ike) vs PC(Ike)

0:06 - If you're trying to hit an Ike out of Aether, FAir is a much better move for the job than NAir. BAir also works well if they go above the edge to try and hit you.
0:08 - Even if you had done it on the right side, DSmash is a bad move to use especially at lower %s; it has pretty bad knockback and ending lag, so your opponent might've even been able to counterattack if you had hit with it. Save it for higher %s where it'll land a kill.
0:20 - Interesting grab release to set up the edgeguard.
0:59 - In a situation like that, you can either just keep shielding, shield grab, or Aether out of shield; you were probably dropping your shield down for a jab, but it's safer to do either of the options mentioned before because you either stay in your shield or attack directly out of shield.
1:04 - If you're using QD to get back onto the stage itself (not the edge), try to land just above the ground so you don't go into freefall.
1:22 - Nice jab -> BAir attempt. Since he was at such high %s however, you could've just done an UTilt after that first jab instead of the kick.
1:43 - Wow... I have to start experimenting with grab releases.
1:53 - It's cool to be flashy, but at such high % you can just end it with a FAir or BAir.

General comments: You played well in this match; you didn't make too many blatant errors or expose bad habits. You even taught me some grab release tricks that I should try out next time I play haha. However, there is still one little thing to knit-pick on. You know the concept of mixing up your jab combos, but you don't really do so often except for that one part where you tried for jab -> BAir (my guess, judging from that one scene where you guys kept clashing jabs, is that you're holding A to do the jab combo). Do more jab mix-ups like jab -> jab combo, not completing the jab combo to screw up their DI, or jab -> grab.

Just as a reminder for the next time you post a video in this thread - try to post videos where the game was close and you were playing at your best. Even though you lost this match, it's because you had been dominant for pretty much the whole match and started messing around. Posting videos where the match was close and you were playing at your best allows us to pick out more of your mistakes, thus being more helpful to you. You play well though, you definitely know what you're doing and I hope we see more videos from you in the future.
Wow... thanks a lot Metroid! You're right though, I did start getting over confident towards the end and that could cost me an important game *shudders*

P.S. I find air release most useful for when I want to throw forward or when my opponent's % is too high for Back Throw --> Dash Attack
 

Nysyarc

Last King of Hollywood
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P.S. I find air release most useful for when I want to throw forward or when my opponent's % is too high for Back Throw --> Dash Attack
Yah that was the one thing I forgot to mention, you used the grab releases very well in the match against Falco too. Just remember not to get too carried away with them, cause your opponent will catch on and grab releases don't add damage so it may not be worth it. But yah, definitely worth it in some situations, I'll have to start adding them to my game a bit.

:034:
 

King of Sack

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
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B.C. Canada
Yah that was the one thing I forgot to mention, you used the grab releases very well in the match against Falco too. Just remember not to get too carried away with them, cause your opponent will catch on and grab releases don't add damage so it may not be worth it. But yah, definitely worth it in some situations, I'll have to start adding them to my game a bit.

:034:
PC's brother mains wario... >:] *Laughs maniacally*
 

Nysyarc

Last King of Hollywood
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
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Nysyarc
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Rate my RL friend's Ike, he's expecting real constructive critics ><
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ODRDofTS0
I'll critique it as if I'm speaking directly to your friend... I don't feel like figuring out how to word things for relaying stuff through you. Anyways, here it goes.

0:00 - I noticed something was wrong with this Snake right about there. A good Snake won't approach you at first, so don't get too used to laying back at the beginning.
0:09 - Nice read, looks like you've probably played this person before.
0:17 - It's not usually the best idea to go for a grab right away, especially a dashing one. Dash up, shield cancel and start jabbing, that way if one jab gets shielded or spot-dodged you can cancel it into a grab to punish.
0:22 - I don't think Nair is the best option in that case, I would have gone with an Fair.
0:34 - Again, try to jab OoS (out of shield) more often than grab.
0:36 - And again, right there where you went for the dash grab, a jab would have worked and would have resulted in more damage than anything you can do out of just a grab.
0:39 - Careful with Ftilt at low percents, it has a lot of cool-down time and is difficult to space properly. Try to convert your Ftilts into Fairs and just use Ftilt as a KO move later on.
0:44 - From that distance where you Nair'd, an Fair would have either hit him or tippered his shield, watch for perfect spacing opportunities like that.
0:46 - Right there you should have canceled after the second jab and kept racking damage, he was in the perfect s0pot for it.
0:47 - I don't know what that spot dodge was about, but it can put you in a bad position.
0:48 - Again, try not to use Ftilt so much at low percents, it's not your best option; try Fairs instead.
0:50 - Using Dair into the ground is just going to get you punished, never do it.
0:52 - I don't know if maybe you were trying to poke his shield, but Dtilt isn't a good option on the stage.
0:54 - Careful when you pull out that Fsmash, you have to be sure that either it will hit, or you will be safe if it doesn't.
0:57 - I wanted to comment on the rolling earlier, but here you just got punished for it. Try not to roll so much.
1:02 - It's never worth Aetherciding just to avoid Snake's Usmash edge-guarding. Always be sure that you'll make it to the ledge when you Aether. A QD right there would have gotten you straight to the ledge also.
1:12 - You know he likes to airdodge a lot, so an empty short-hop and then an Utilt would have worked better here instead of the Uair.
1:25 - Another empty short-hop moment. See last comment ^^^
1:29 - Don't full-hop Nair if you can help it, the ending lag in the air is awful and will get you punished.
1:31 - Your first Fair of the match, and it was very poorly spaced. Abuse Fair's range, don't fall straight into an opponent's shield while doing it.
1:36 - This made me lol at how bad that Snake is, don't expect to get many of those Fsmashes to land at high-level play >_> A spaced Fair would have been a much safer punishment for a charging Fsmash.
1:51 - You're overusing Fsmash and underusing Fair; switch it up.
1:59 - Don't follow through with all three jabs if you know they won't hit, end it as soon as there's doubt. Your third jab is very punishable.
2:09 - Don't be so quick to roll away, you could have punished his roll with jabs if you hadn't.
2:14 - Should have started the Usmash earlier instead of sliding it.
2:27 - Again with the rolling away, don't do it so often. Jabs would have gotten him there.
2:41 - Space your Fairs, it has better range than most other moves in the game, abuse that range.
2:47 - Again with the Fair problems. You know he likes to roll so that was a bad option there.
2:49 - You seem to be losing your nerve a little at this point, Fairing and DAing almost desperately. Space your DAs as well, it has deceptive range.
2:52 - Try to eliminate dashing grabs from your game, they just aren't good and there's always a better option than going straight for a grab.
2:55 - Don't use your double jump off-stage if there's no need to, save it in case of emergency.
3:01 - Don't get greedy with those Fsmashes, read your opponent carefully if want to use one. For example, you could have noticed he was spot-dodging a lot for the last ten seconds or so; charging your Fsmash a bit and punishing the spot-dodge would have worked.
3:16 - There's almost no point to jumping and air-dodging when Snake is in the air above you. Read his air-dodge and punish with a Bair for the KO.
3:20 - I don't like beating a dead horse, but spacing, spacing, spacing.
3:22 - When Snake is spamming Usmash like that without moving, a tipped Fair or Ftilt will safely hit him out of it. Don't expect Snakes to do that a lot though...
3:26 - Fsmash is a bad option for KOing at that percent. Utilt, Bair, Ftilt, Uair... these are your KO moves.
3:29 - Nice try with the Bair, but space it more carefully so it's harder to punish.
3:32 - Finally a decently spaced Fair. Note the difference in results from the last ones.
3:38 - Read your opponent. You should know he likes to airdodge coming down, so don't go straight for an attack. Bait the airdodge with an empty jump and then punish.
3:42 - Jab instead of grab. A Jab quickly canceled into an Utilt here may even have KOd him if he had bad DI.
3:45 - Again, no Dair into the ground, space an Fair from a distance instead.
4:03 - You should have noticed a pattern by this point (Spot-dodge, Utilt, spot-dodge, Ftilt, spot-dodge, Ftilt, etc...). Punish one of the spot-dodges with a Bair or an Utilt (a smash if you're feeling ambitious, a jab if you're feeling cautious) and you have yourself a KO.
4:11 - All the dashing grab attempts are painful to watch, because they are useless compared to your other options. Space some Fairs, bait and punish with jabs. Anything but dashing grabs.
4:14 - Again, bait the airdodge and punish it, you should know it's coming by this point. Utilt is a great way to punish an airdodge if you can bait one.
4:26 - You got very lucky there, if Snake had shielded that, it would have been too easy for him to punish you with an Utilt for the KO. Don't Dair into the ground.

Overall, your Ike isn't bad, but there are a lot of moves you need to work out of your game and a lot of moves you need to work into your game. Some moves to avoid are Fsmash, Ftilt at low percents, DA unless it's a follow up (to Bthrow) or to punish a roll, Dtilt on stage, and Dair into the stage. Try to use Fair more often but space it carefully, never use it straight at an opponent. I liked your use of Nair near the beginning of the match, but you stopped using it.

Ike doesn't need much to KO, don't always try for the smash attacks. Rack damage with jabs (and learn how to jab cancel by crouching between jabs, if you already know how, use it more often) and then use your tilts and aerials as finishers, not your smashes. Use Bair more often as well, especially as a finisher but also as a punishing move at low percents, and to combo out of Nair. You can auto-cancel Bair by tap-jumping with the control stick and using the c-stick for the Bair. This means you can act again as soon as you hit the ground.

Also, don't roll so much, instead try to read and punish your opponent's rolls. New players and players who have been at it for a long time can get attached to rolling and all it usually takes is one veteran to start punishing all of their rolls for them to learn. Don't put yourself through that, work rolls out of your game a.s.a.p. You would have dominated that Snake if you had read his rolls and airdodges instead of acting on impulses and rolling yourself.

I know it can be hard, but this game is about spacing, reading, baiting and punishing more than anything else; especially for Ike.


:034:
 

Teh Brettster

Smash Master
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Messages
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I'm not sure if Nysyarc mentioned it (I only skimmed quickly over his post), but that guy needs MUCH less Dthrow when the opponent is over about 20%. Fthrow or Bthrow and follow the opponent to keep the pressure on.
 

Nysyarc

Last King of Hollywood
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Nysyarc
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I'm not sure if Nysyarc mentioned it (I only skimmed quickly over his post), but that guy needs MUCH less Dthrow when the opponent is over about 20%. Fthrow or Bthrow and follow the opponent to keep the pressure on.
Ah, yah I missed that. I was more concerned about how often he went for dash grabs and grabs instead of jabs. But yah, definitely more Bthrow and Fthrow. I only really use Dthrow as a desperate KO move at high percents (which shouldn't happen as Ike anyways) or on stages with low ceilings.

:034:
 

theeboredone

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
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Houston, TX
Did that Snake use a single grenade? z.z...iono about you, but that Snake seemed pretty crappy to me. But I guess we aren't here to critique the Snake player. I'm not gonna add much, but that Snake liked to do his Running+A attack a lot. It's a bit tougher to bait with F-air or read it out since F-Air has some lag to start and end with. N-Air is a safer option to bait the opponent and you can generally follow it up with jabs at low %
 

Nysyarc

Last King of Hollywood
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Did that Snake use a single grenade?
Yah you have no idea how many comments I wanted to make about the Snake... pretty sure he only uses a single C4 as well. And he never grabbed. Only thing he got right was using Utilt as a KO move, but he started trying for it way too early.

I'm stopping now cause I could rant forever.


:034:
 

Kimchi

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
895
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Fort Lee, NJ / Cornell University - Ithaca, NY
Question for everybody: I know I didn't update in so long, but partly the reason for that besides my laziness was because I feel the archive would be too cluttered. Should I delete the current archive and constantly update it with newer critiques? I'd then delete the new archive 3-4 months later, or should I keep updating with the same archive?
 

theeboredone

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
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Also, another recommendation would be to organize the videos by names and dates in a different format. It may be a bit tedious per say, but I feel it would be better. People who want to see a certain person play with Ike can simply scroll down (ABC order) and find the person they are looking for...so it would be like.

BLF

8/20/09: (youtube link)

Bored

3/30/08 (youtube link)

Combo King
 

PentaSalia

Smash Master
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Since it's more of a records sort of thing, i say just rid of the first 5 oldest videos as it gets more cluttered. Eventually you'll delete all of the really old ones, and they'd be replaced with new ones

Coating the text in red wouldn't hurt either

ike=:mad:=red

D:




and why did you have to put comboking as an example bored
maybe it's cuz deep inside you admire him ;P
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
3,786
Location
Chester, IL
Also, another recommendation would be to organize the videos by names and dates in a different format. It may be a bit tedious per say, but I feel it would be better. People who want to see a certain person play with Ike can simply scroll down (ABC order) and find the person they are looking for...so it would be like.

BLF

8/20/09: (youtube link)

Bored

3/30/08 (youtube link)

Combo King
I thought this was a great idea, in addition to linking the critic's responses. I picture it as being like this:


BLF

8/20/09: (youtube link)
- Penta (link to post)
- Bored (link to post)
 

theeboredone

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
12,399
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Houston, TX
Since it's more of a records sort of thing, i say just rid of the first 5 oldest videos as it gets more cluttered. Eventually you'll delete all of the really old ones, and they'd be replaced with new ones

Coating the text in red wouldn't hurt either

ike=:mad:=red

D:




and why did you have to put comboking as an example bored
maybe it's cuz deep inside you admire him ;P
Maybe because Combo King is next on the list of Ike players in ABC order >_>...
 

PentaSalia

Smash Master
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oh yea ._.

lol....someone slap me

well either way ,just rid of those month old vids kimch lol:p
 

Palpi

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
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Yardley, Pennsylvania
I am not going to watch it, but if it is really fast it is combat walking. He is holding down "A" for jab and missing with the kick, (jab 2) that moves Ike forward, thus resetting his jab etc.
 

Watkins

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
357
Location
Orono, ME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9XV3Fxahmg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3XgA0ov9Ag

Here's both a singles and a doubles game from me. I realize ideally that it's best to post games you've lost to have more things to get feedback on, but these games of mine were really good and fun to rewatch as well. These are probably at the top of my game, and this is what I need work on. I lack a capture card at the moment so it's hard to get my games on youtube for the moment but I'm interested to see if anyone has any good suggestions to help me improve my gameplay.

Modesty aside, I know I'm already pretty good at Ike, but I know I'm far from perfect. My Ike lacks experience in most matchups due to my Maine isolation >B(. Also, my Ike cannot even handle pro NE Falcos. It feels like I just don't have the speed to avoid the lasers and grabs efficiently.

I don't plan on giving up Ike, but I feel like I've hit a brick wall as to what to improve next. I must say, I've never really asked anyone what they've thought of my Ike or what they think I could do to improve it, and I probably should. Lemme know what you guys think.

Edit: Actually, here's a pretty good game that I ended up losing due to a couple dumb mistakes. Won the set though 8D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gl_DTOVaRc&feature=related
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
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Location
Chester, IL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9XV3...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3XgA0ov9Ag

Edit: Actually, here's a pretty good game that I ended up losing due to a couple dumb mistakes. Won the set though 8D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gl_DTOVaRc&feature=related
Your first link is broken, and I won't watch the doubles match because frankly, I don't know how to play doubles :laugh:. I wouldn't want to give you any bad tips. I'll watch the last match you posted though.

Watkins (Ike) vs KidGoggles (Sonic)

0:07 - DAir is generally an unsafe move to use when you're coming down onto the ground, especially at low %s; it has such long landing lag and little hitstun that your opponent would be able to punish you for hitting them. NAir is a much safer option.
0:08 - FAir is usually a safe move, but you're fighting against Sonic - even though he's across the stage from you, he's still fast enough to punish you for a whiffed FAir if he's on the ground. NAir is the safest aerial you can use in this match-up.
0:16 - Jab -> standing grab usually doesn't work; jab -> running grab is more likely to work though.
0:18 - Nice try with the NAir, but you mis-spaced it; rather than running into your opponent with it, you should try to tip it so that they can't shieldgrab you.
0:19 - Again with the FAir, try sticking to NAirs so you don't get punished if you miss.
----- Some stuff that I pointed out earlier like mis-spacing happened again, so I didn't comment on it, but if you want me to go back I can. Nice DI on the BAir and USmash. -----
1:26 - You may have done this because you say he wouldn't be hit, but if you're going for the short-hop UAir, then you shouldn't fastfall and you should try to land just behind them, but nearly on top of them.
1:55 - Right now, he's showing a tendency to airdodge when he comes near the ground; staying there and USmashing would've been a smarter choice.
2:10 - Try not to drift into your opponent if you notice that your attack missed; it makes it easier for you to be counter-attacked. Instead, drift away from them or don't drift at all.
2:55 - You were getting predictable with your airdodges; he knew that you would either jump or airdodge when he goes up to you in the air, so this time he waited to see what you would do.
3:07 - However, you caught on and instead of airdodging again, jumped out of the way. Good read.
3:31 - He tends to airdodge when you come up to him in the air or when he goes to the ground; you should've either delayed your UAir or time it so that it hits him as he lands.
4:14 - He's still airdodging a lot (now as an approach), but he's reading your airdodges.
4:24 - Jab -> BAir isn't the only jab cancel that Ike can do that will lead to a kill; there's also jab -> UTilt and jab -> DSmash. You should've stopped jabbing after the first one and do one of those three attacks since they're more likely to get away.

General comments - You're right; your Ike is indeed pretty good. However, you need to work on reading your opponent and realizing when you're getting read; there were a lot of times when he would airdodge, but you never punished him for it. On the other hand, there were a lot of times where you airdodged and he punished you for it. (That last kill you had with the DAir after his dash attack? I think you hit because he was reading an airdodge instead of an attack.) You also have the habit of mis-spacing your attacks and choosing risky moves that can be punished by your opponent; Sonic is excellent at punishing landing lag, so sticking to NAir and auto-canceled BAirs are definitely the safest option in this match-up. You should also expand your jab cancel options to more than just jab -> BAir (the one you landed in the beginning was pretty nice); try messing around with jab -> UTilt or jab -> DSmash. At low %s when you're trying to build up damage, finish the jab combo more instead of jab -> grab or continuous jabbing; jab -> jab combo does a reasonable 17%, whereas jab -> kick -> jab combo does 21% or so (about the same as a fresh FTilt from Snake). Overall, you played well in this match; you just have to play smarter and safer.
 

Watkins

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
357
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Orono, ME
Thanks for the info, here's the fixed first link if you want to look at that too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9XV3Fxahmg

I do use jab to up tilt fairly often, like in this video. Jab to downsmash is something I've never experimented with though. Dsmash is the only one of Ike's moves I do not use frequently, well that and up throw.

How reliable is jab to Dsmash and is it even worth going for it instead of more jabs or finishing the combo?
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
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Chester, IL
Thanks for the info, here's the fixed first link if you want to look at that too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9XV3Fxahmg

I do use jab to up tilt fairly often, like in this video. Jab to downsmash is something I've never experimented with though. Dsmash is the only one of Ike's moves I do not use frequently, well that and up throw.

How reliable is jab to Dsmash and is it even worth going for it instead of more jabs or finishing the combo?
Jab -> DSmash is only good for getting a very high % kill, I only mentioned it before because it would've killed them; it's not that good otherwise :laugh:. It's as reliable as jab -> UTilt; it's not a true combo, but it's not exactly easy to escape either. If you stick to just jabs and jab -> grabs until kill %s, you should be able to catch them off guard with either (as well as jab -> BAir).

I'll watch the video you just posted later; I'll edit this post when I watch it.

EDIT: Done.

Watkins (Ike) vs Memphischains (Sonic)

0:12 - Even though a lot of Sonics like to use spin dash as an attack, you shouldn't use Counter if you're playing your opponent for the first time; Counter should be thrown out when you are sure that your opponent will attack, which comes after understanding their playstyle.
0:19 - More spacing issues; Sonic moves VERY fast on the ground, so be wary when you think of using an aerial; just like he did here, he can simply zip right under you and shieldgrab.
0:37 - If you notice your opponent DI'ing out of your jab combo, you should just finish it rather than rush at them with an aerial; you're more likely to hit them that way.
0:43 - Ike's grab game isn't that good; even though he has BThrow -> dash attack, it only works at certain %s. At lower %s, you should focus on racking up damage, so completing the jab combo is a better option than going for a grab.
0:59 - After the first two jabs, you should've gone for the DTilt then; your opponent DIs very well, so it's very unlikely that he'll be close enough if you continue jabbing.
2:02 - Yay jab -> UTilt :).
2:37 - UAir doesn't set up for anything; it's only good for getting kills, so you should save it until they are at high %.
3:18 - If you see your opponent go that high, you should just release the charge right away so you reduce your chance of getting punished; only a stupid opponent will get hit when they're that high, and you really can't take that chance in a tournament match.

General comments: You played well in this match; you were pretty much dominating after your first kill (which explains the lack of comments after the first minute). However, you are still struggling to read your opponent and punish them; for example, your opponent had a tendency to airdodge when he came down onto the stage, but you never baited it and punished it. Your opponent also had the tendency to edgehop an attack to get onto the stage; a retreating USmash could've punished this. Learning how to read your opponent takes practice and a bit of guess work; it might seem hard to consciously think about your opponent while playing, but it is well-worth the effort when you land powerful attacks. Nevertheless, good job with the match and winning.
 

Watkins

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
357
Location
Orono, ME
Thanks for the tip, now that you've pointed it out it does seem like I mis-space nairs more often than I'd like to in intense matches. Fairs too at times but usually they aren't punishable except by, in this case, Sonic. I don't play Sonics much, that match was probably the 3rd time I've ever played against one. But that shouldn't have been a problem.

I'll be sure to work on mixing in these things for future matches though, thanks.
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
3,786
Location
Chester, IL
Eww, Wi-fi... oh well. It's not exactly easy to find good people to play offline with if you have strict parents. I'm not going to point out any "timing" mistakes, only mistakes on playstyle.

Comboking vs Blue Terrorist

0:11 - You didn't really get punished for it, but NAir has a small fairly hitbox underneath Ike; it wouldn't have hit your opponent unless he went right inside you and it wouldn't have saved you from an UAir. You should've either DAir'd or just do no attack at all to save you some frames of landing lag.
0:23 - Whenever your enemy is on top of you, especially on a platform, USmash is the best punisher you can ask for; against Bowser, you can pretty much get a free USmash no matter where you stand under the platform if you time it right. Compared to USmash, NAir isn't nearly as good in this situation.
0:32 - If you see your opponent roll away from you, dash attack is your best punisher unless you're close enough to get a jab or grab when they get up; you weren't close enough for neither, so dash attack would've been the best option. FAir would've worked as well in this situation because of Bowser's size, but in general dash attack is better because of the low angle it sends your opponent at compared to FAir.
0:45 - You tend to airdodge onto the ground a lot; your opponent read this and grabbed you as a result.
0:50 - This time, you knew he thought you were going to airdodge, so you responded with Aether instead; Aether as an offensive move does a fair amount of damage, but it also leaves you horribly exposed if you miss (even if you do hit, you still get put in a bad position). Because of this, I think just airdoding past the edge and then Aethering back up to the stage would've been the safer option.
0:54 - Whenever you see Bowser jump off the stage to intercept you, you should expect the FAir; they can't really do anything else to edgeguard except for UAir, but you weren't at kill % so they wouldn't have done it.
0:57 - QD as an attack, as you know, is pretty bad. QD as a way to maneuver is a better, but you shouldn't use it if your enemy is that close to you even if you have invincibility; there are better ways to regain momentum.
1:00 - Bowser's up+B auto-sweetspots; FSmash isn't a good attack to edgeguard him with.
1:03 - QD is a bad attack...
1:12 - Eruption is only good as a desperate kill move if you read an airdodge or roll; since he wasn't in kill %s, you should've used something else like a jab combo to build up damage or an USmash, which kills much earlier.
1:23 - QD is bad.
1:45 - Wi-fi is stupid :ohwell:.
1:55 - You shouldn't let your opponent get to the edge so easily; at least run in with a shield and jab out of shield if you think they're not going to attack.
2:02 - If you're going to FAir your opponent, try spacing yourself farther away so that there's no risk of getting counter-attacked.

General comments: You played better towards the end of the match; however, you have the tendency to throw out bad attacks like QD and Eruption sometimes. The biggest thing you should work on, though, is recovering safely; Aether brings you up high enough that you can fastfall while airdodging past the edge to protect yourself from an attack and still make it back. I know it's Wi-fi, but it's still possible to DI well; you just have to prepare for it earlier and predict when you have to get hit. Your DI wasn't that good, so you should try to predict when you'll be hit more often; you wouldn't have died on that last stock if you had DI'd it properly. You should also jab cancel more; you did a bit on the first stock, but then you stopped doing it altogether. It could be because of Wi-fi though, so I won't go into too much more detail since you should already know how great Ike's jab is. Overall, you had your good moments in this match, but you also have some aspects where you need to work on; keep it up.
 
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