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Dedede Tactical Strategy 20 - IC's Desynchs

Jupz

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Haha yeah :p

ok good discussion this week any ideas next week?

what about IC's desychs eg. blizzard, ice blocks.
or we could do warlock punch for the lulz
 

CRASHiC

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Nah, his uptilt would be better.
But on that note. ICs desynch would be a good topic, though I doubt any of us know how to deal with that.
 

Sensei Seibrik

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i dont wana hear any *****in for answers, i wana hear discussion, which is what this topic is about. i wana see who's smart, and on their toes, who deserves it who doesn't.




think of this like a jigsaw test :p


LIVE Or DIE


PS.

eventually i wont give the answer, i'll give whole videos as hints, with answers lying somewhere in them
 

o-Serin-o

I think 56 nights crazy
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I'm pretty **** sure I suggested the MK Dair camping like 5 pages ago. Lemme go find that **** so I look like a copycat.

Pit is too easy.

Wolf is just spam regardless.

I say we move on to something you will actually see in competitive play and go to Wario's bite or MK's Dair camping... >.> or... Snake's ftilt...
 

T3h Albino

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I guess ill start the discussion off. I find that once mk's start dair camping a lot of the time they're dumb about how they land, and will just tornado without thinking twice. If they do tornado just tilt your shield up and wait for him to realize that the tornado won't hit you and move it away. While he's moving away grab him as the animation ends. If the mk doesn't tornado and just lands with ftilt/dtilt try and jump over him and fullhop dair. Dair covers most of his options as he cannot tornado spot dodge or shuttle loop.
 

T3h Albino

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The topic is misleading as it infers we're only discussing dair camping while we should be discussing mk's spacing game in general.
 

Commander_Beef

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It's not going to be possible to predict it correctly considering that Meta Knight has too many other safe options. So once he down airs us once, we should just shield and hope that he's done so we can do something afterwards. I don't see any harm in the extra possibility of just simply avoiding it altogether by running the other way. In that way, we can see what he does next and we can go from there. But other than that, there's no move that can beat it until he's done. He'll be to high in the air for uptilt to reach, and no other move can go through in between each down air, so just dash away. Or dash one way and hope for a back air to work.
 

Jupz

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Ok, I'll change the title, thanks albino.

A couple things I have noticed from my own experiences with MK -

If the MK is retreating in tornado and you can see you aren't going to catch him in time, don't keep on chasing. It has less lag then you think. If you rush after him blindly you could get Ftilted or tornadoed. Or he could change directions again and come back into you.

Don't commit to an attack such as a utilt or Usmash while he is Dair camping just above you. The MK is waiting for this and can airdodge through the attack and grab you.
 

Sensei Seibrik

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Sorry if this may be off topic, but think of it as a future discussion.


Lain finally posted in the RealdddBR asking this question


"What do I do about Snake just camping? I find it extremely difficult to get around that **** with DDD being so fat and not having the added advantage of someone like MK's agility or the long slide he gets from dash grabbing. What the **** do I do.

Ftilting works sometimes, but that's if they're not REALLY nade camping."


i felt it necassary to bring up here, and show everyone my, or the, answer.


me:


"for camping snakes never run, u run u lose all ur grab range. your standing grab beats his gernade grab, so as long as u walk everywhere, and shield gernades accordingly, if ur not next to him all u have to anticipate is when he will motor slide, which u can grab on reaction. other than that slowly keep stepping foward, step grab when he pulls a nade, or step shield if he doesnt (cuz that means he's gona ftilt instead)

theres only 4 things a snake will ever do to an approaching ddd. Gernade (into grab) spacy ftilts, motor slide, or roll behind u (if u read this its a full stage CG ^_^)




any more questions?"




Just thought that was worth noting.




Also I think the first post should have links to posts containing initial questions, and links to posts with specified answers, however many there may be.



just a thought...
 

Jupz

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Yeah any info from top DDD's like seibrik is always wanted :)

Thats an interesting idea about the questions. When someone normally asks a question and it gets answered, I usually include the question into the same sentence as the answer eg. if someone asks whats the best way to beat grounded tornado in the summar I might put "the best way to beat grounded tornado is dsmash"

but your idea would probably make it easier to understand :)

thanks






ok backk on topic btw seibrik has anyone come up with the correct solution for Dair camping yet?

edit: updated with past two summaries and seibriks new info
 

Buuman

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Seibrik put it well.
Jupz nice thread.

And when MK dair camps, shield to bair, or a perfectly spaced fair. Or spotdodge up tilt. This scares most MKs and makes them think twice about dair camping DDD. Rolling away is a safe option and if they decide to nado the roll moves faster then it meaning if they try to pursue you, they can get uptilted.

Most of the time try to get in the air and face away from MK, get ready to Bair and fast fall onto tornado. Usually most smart MKs think when D3 is in the air, he his completely susceptible to nade because of d3s blind spots, their counter for this is MKs deadly fair which is nearly impossible to punish so watch for that. So try to be above MK if u have room on smashville or FD. on BF try to stay on the ground and try to predict.
 

Jupz

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Thanks buu :)

Seibrik you said you'd post some videos as clues... :p

Also remember to talk about his spacing game guys.

The ideal range for MK is in between our Ftilt range and grab range. When he is here he can shield Ftilt and punish it and is too far to be hit with a grab. He can hit us with Dtilt, Ftilt and Fair.
 

Sensei Seibrik

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if ur having trouble with approaches, IF YOU HAVE THE LEAD

the mk can only do one of 3 or 4 things.

1. Run==>shield grab, hoping to block ur ftilt.

SOLUTION:
Instead of ftilt, read his approach, and simply stay on ur side, then when u think he's gona running shield, u do a dash grab (no shield) and meet him half way. That way your grabbing his approaching shield.

2. Jump in space dairs/fairs

SOLUTION:
for spacy mk's mixup between dash shielding==>grab (if they do recieding fairs), sh bairs or utilts out of shield for spacy dairs, be very patient with this...

like shield 2, even 3 dairs before making a move, if they're too high, try to time a full hop uair or fair after abotu the third or 4th dair, if they land before then, grab/dsmash the landing depending on spacing, only other option is nado which if ur shield is low either roll away or try to utilt it. if ur shield is fine (they did nado before doing 3-4 dairs on ur shield) then just hold shield, try to predict if he's gona stay inside u, OR retreat. if he retreats u can actually time a roll in that direction to move with him, and finish ur roll where he lands, this seems to be the only consistant way to punish retreating nado, if they stayed in ur shield at all, and it avoids the mindgame of -retreat, just kidding hit u while u run-

3. Walk slowly up and space tilts

SOLUTION:

DSMASH-sounds weird but it destroys mk's grounded spacing game once he's passed ur ftilt range. just hold shield accordingly, when he fuks up, give him a swing.
itss sooooo good and soooo big. and hurts, and puts them above u. i <3 dsmash..

4. Dash, jump, nado.

SOLUTION-This one you gota watch out for, as it can shut out like ur other two solutions if u pick wrong. (IE he has a rock that beats ur scissor and lizard, BUT you have this paper) this one will seem the most blatent if u pay attention enough, and aggressive, they will run full speed and jump AT you, not near you. thats ur que to either throw out utilt, try to grab it, OR the safest thing, shield. -----the issue is when they read ur shield, and instead of jump nadoing, they just dash grab ur shield, so watch out for that.

instead of linking specific vids, since i do all these strats often,
i'll link u here instead.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241986

watch the latest vids vs mk to see these strats in action.


I only want to remind everyone, and this is something that should be on the TOP of the first post, Matchups=/=a scientific method to consistantly win. All matchups are is knowing how to find bad habits, and knowing what your characters best punishments are, how to use them, and how to avoid being punished. If i tell you to wait for a mk's 3rd Dair, that's me saying be patient, look at him, and find out what his habits are first before trying to blatently attack him. See if he likes to commit to dairing, or if he's gona throw in a nado. Im telling you what you can do for both options, and how to handle it, it's up to you (the players) to MIX IN the right options given certain circumstances. I cannot tell you do this, this and this, and you WILL beat this character. I can only give you the tools to to use, its up to you to find out how to best use those tools.

I hope my point gets accrossed. While I'm sure my words on MK have helped, they are not the end all be all, as you can see it takes a good deal of prediction, but the rewards are great. Almost makes the matchup seem even.
 

Sensei Seibrik

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuMtYUHnP38


at 1:29 is one example of dsmash being > than mk spacing



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOGBdTSIaco
at 3:16 u can see an example of using the roll to punish retreating tornado.

also at 4:02 i just wana point out when u have a lead like this, or even just 20%, and u knock mk off the level, u should NOT turn the aggresive on, stay away from his ledge, make him come to you at all times, so its a mission+at kill% he'll be really weary not to tornado approach in fear of dying, so that already makes his mixup game easier to read.


i'll update THIS post with more as i find
 

Jupz

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Holy crap, nice info seibrik! Thanks for taking the time to type all that up.

How would you guys suggest I organise the front post to make it as simple as possible? I could organise it by character/week/importance?
 

Buuman

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuMtYUHnP38


at 1:29 is one example of dsmash being > than mk spacing



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOGBdTSIaco
at 3:16 u can see an example of using the roll to punish retreating tornado.

also at 4:02 i just wana point out when u have a lead like this, or even just 20%, and u knock mk off the level, u should NOT turn the aggresive on, stay away from his ledge, make him come to you at all times, so its a mission+at kill% he'll be really weary not to tornado approach in fear of dying, so that already makes his mixup game easier to read.


i'll update THIS post with more as i find

Good match, the music make me want to kill myself...near the end of the video I wanted to just stop watching.
 

Sensei Seibrik

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Organize it by character, than by importance of what they do.


or character than depth.


like

MetaKnight:

How to beat tornado

How to bait tornado

How to react to dair camping

How to beat dair camping

how to beat, how to punish




Start off small and sprout into more and more complex things.
 

T3h Albino

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Seibriks such a neat freak, but it makes sense so it's ok :)

Anyhow i believe dsmash oos could be a good option, ill try it out in some matches
and see how it works.
 

o-Serin-o

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Not Dsmash, dtilt. If anything, the shieldstun will cause you to spotdodge anyways. If anything, just grab or SH Fair OOS
 

Sensei Seibrik

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i just feel if u try dtilt, they could see it on reaction, and mash b to go higher, and back into u....



which is why i feel roll is safest/most effective.
 

Commander_Beef

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i just feel if u try dtilt, they could see it on reaction, and mash b to go higher, and back into u....
which is why i feel roll is safest/most effective.
Yeah bro, I gotchu, dodge rolling is the best. But the more options the better, and did you really think any King Dedede has tried this before in a video? CO18 and Atomsk sure haven't. So the Meta Knight player is not going to react that fast, and the tornadoe's frames would be gone by then if they really did do something unrealistic like that. Especially when they see something new like this.
 

Sensei Seibrik

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i just think ur underestimating how fast mk's tornado really is, it can just get away, releasing shield and doing any attack (i think) would be too slow
 

Commander_Beef

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i just think ur underestimating how fast mk's tornado really is, it can just get away, releasing shield and doing any attack (i think) would be too slow
No sire. I understand completely all of it's properties in how ths situation is possible. I was only implying that our opponent is not going to do something as unrealistic as..."they could see it on reaction, and mash b to go higher, and back into u...."
They're not going to do this in a matter of 1 second (repeating myself here---->) Especially when they're not going to expect something new like down tilting after shielding a tornado when we know he's going to space it. You comprehend?
 

Sensei Seibrik

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well the main point still stands, i believe they can get away without even thinking twice about ur attacks oos





and



im gona try to have vids of how to fight pikachu's later this week, i may have come up with something...
 
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