Emperor Time
Smash Lord
It's a a giant assault weapon. It's not an "omfg let me ram all you mofos hur hur hur"
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TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT
- Thread starter JOE!
- Start date
JOE!
Smash Hero
still, we dont bring machines into this...
its just the fighters
its just the fighters
Geez, finish up with this MU already, please... This is THE most boring MU I have witnessed in my days visiting this thread, since it doesn't have anything to do with one brawler fighting the other... More like a brawler's TEAMMATES fighting the other's.
Just choose Marth the victor or something. That's the one I keep reading here and there... Or leave them as wildcards and move on to an actual Brawler vs Brawler match.
Just choose Marth the victor or something. That's the one I keep reading here and there... Or leave them as wildcards and move on to an actual Brawler vs Brawler match.
REL38
Smash Lord
One more day . . .
. . . if Adumb or whoever's doing their "match-up analysis" doesn't show then just make Marth the victor. Marth has better options and therefore wins. Ike's only option is hit n run and Marth beats that by fire. Even if you're gonna say that won't work for 'blah blah' reason, then Marth's Army waits them out until they run out of rations. Marth has supply lines, Ike doesn't. And there's only so many animals on patches of woodlands. They'd only last a week or so until they run out of food. Ike will then have to resort to sending out decoys to hive the rest a chance to flee, but that's trading the lives of 2-3 for the rest. Where are they gonna go? Back to another set of woods. Rinse and repeat.
Or, judging from what people have been saying here, a few will go "screw this" and save their own butts resulting in even smaller groups that stand less of a chance of surviving.
The hit n run tactics also make Ike 's tire out faster than Marth's.
I sincerely doubt Adumb's got any more to contribute aside from what's been stated thus far. Guerilla warfare is more notibly used and successful to Modern warfare, aka guys using guns. The best instance there is of guerilla warfare working without guns is the whoevers who fought against the Romans. But these attacks still remained true to the term, "Guerilla".
Guerilla means "little battle" in Spanish and reflects the tactics perfectly. The objective is to avoid large enemy forces and engage the enemy on a small scale level. This means attacking outposts, supply depots, local authorities under rule of the enemy and stationed troops that are low in numbers and they did so via ambushes and raids.
Not to mention these things were done in jungle/urban areas. Open areas screw them over.
The BIG thing they avoided were ARMIES. They don't stand a chance against them. They had weaponry that wasn't up to par with armies, but the weapons they did have were far better suited for ambushes and raids, where they have the element of SURPRISE.
Guerilla warfare wins by perseverence and time. The commitment to their cause that they're willing to Die for and the knowledge that it'll take YEARS to accomplish.
Ike's screwed by the environment, lack of surprise, the enemy knowing their whereabouts and numbers. Not to mention guerilla tactics work FAR better with guns. Guns allowed them to keep a safe distance and still deal damage. Swords require close combat which puts the rebels at a greater disadvantage and archers don't substitute Real guns.
Ike LOSES.
I know, it's tough, but we shoulda just stuck with 1 VS 1, or Squad VS Squad. Not this Guerilla Rebels VS Army.
. . . if Adumb or whoever's doing their "match-up analysis" doesn't show then just make Marth the victor. Marth has better options and therefore wins. Ike's only option is hit n run and Marth beats that by fire. Even if you're gonna say that won't work for 'blah blah' reason, then Marth's Army waits them out until they run out of rations. Marth has supply lines, Ike doesn't. And there's only so many animals on patches of woodlands. They'd only last a week or so until they run out of food. Ike will then have to resort to sending out decoys to hive the rest a chance to flee, but that's trading the lives of 2-3 for the rest. Where are they gonna go? Back to another set of woods. Rinse and repeat.
Or, judging from what people have been saying here, a few will go "screw this" and save their own butts resulting in even smaller groups that stand less of a chance of surviving.
The hit n run tactics also make Ike 's tire out faster than Marth's.
I sincerely doubt Adumb's got any more to contribute aside from what's been stated thus far. Guerilla warfare is more notibly used and successful to Modern warfare, aka guys using guns. The best instance there is of guerilla warfare working without guns is the whoevers who fought against the Romans. But these attacks still remained true to the term, "Guerilla".
Guerilla means "little battle" in Spanish and reflects the tactics perfectly. The objective is to avoid large enemy forces and engage the enemy on a small scale level. This means attacking outposts, supply depots, local authorities under rule of the enemy and stationed troops that are low in numbers and they did so via ambushes and raids.
Not to mention these things were done in jungle/urban areas. Open areas screw them over.
The BIG thing they avoided were ARMIES. They don't stand a chance against them. They had weaponry that wasn't up to par with armies, but the weapons they did have were far better suited for ambushes and raids, where they have the element of SURPRISE.
Guerilla warfare wins by perseverence and time. The commitment to their cause that they're willing to Die for and the knowledge that it'll take YEARS to accomplish.
Ike's screwed by the environment, lack of surprise, the enemy knowing their whereabouts and numbers. Not to mention guerilla tactics work FAR better with guns. Guns allowed them to keep a safe distance and still deal damage. Swords require close combat which puts the rebels at a greater disadvantage and archers don't substitute Real guns.
Ike LOSES.
I know, it's tough, but we shoulda just stuck with 1 VS 1, or Squad VS Squad. Not this Guerilla Rebels VS Army.
Beren Zaiga
Smash Ace
I look at the number of units you listed total. Ike's mercs are outnumbered at a ratio of around 5 to 1. Even if the rough terrain helps them, it doesn't mean that Marth's army is just going to go in "all guns blazing". I don't think Marth OR Ike are that stupid. Marth's army would win by numbers in a wide open area, but in a forest, Ike's Greil Mercenaries definitely have an advantage, but that doesn't mean they win unconditionally either.
Chances are Marth would send his arm in groups and order them to be cautious, hes not a hot-head I think, but again, neither is Ike...I think (Its kinda obvious that I have never played Fire Emblem). That way his group would have higher chances of survival against Ike's troop With so many enemies to focus on, even in forest, taking them down would be tough without traps, which I doubt they are being given, at the risk of exposing themselves and losing their advantage for the most part because Marth's army would then be on their guard.
Chances are Marth would send his arm in groups and order them to be cautious, hes not a hot-head I think, but again, neither is Ike...I think (Its kinda obvious that I have never played Fire Emblem). That way his group would have higher chances of survival against Ike's troop With so many enemies to focus on, even in forest, taking them down would be tough without traps, which I doubt they are being given, at the risk of exposing themselves and losing their advantage for the most part because Marth's army would then be on their guard.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Adum always comes in here and complains about how he wants the match to turn out...
this time I let him have his way and let Marth have alot more units, and make it like a medieval seige...and guess what everyone thinks?
BOOOOOORRRRIIINNNGGG.....
he never even showed up to post his **** synopsis he was so excited about....
I may as well just call them both wildcards and be done...
this time I let him have his way and let Marth have alot more units, and make it like a medieval seige...and guess what everyone thinks?
BOOOOOORRRRIIINNNGGG.....
he never even showed up to post his **** synopsis he was so excited about....
I may as well just call them both wildcards and be done...
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Please note: This post is assumming somewhere in the area of 5-1 numbers advantage for Marth.
Basic issue: Marth's objective is gonna be to find and trap Ike's forces. Ike's units CANNOT survive an all-out confrontation with marth's forces, in that situation superior numbers will rule the day. Ike is trying to avoid that and launch hit and run attacks to wear down Marth's forces over a series of Months.
Marth's objective is overall easier, but since he's using conventional warfare, Ike has the advantage in ability to remain hidden. Formal battle lines, while effective in fighting against conventional enemies, are a great deal easier to find and remain hidden from then a small decentralized band.
This means that Ike's forces can launch hit and fade style attacks, where they'll be targeting a few units, and then removing themselves from the fray. Ike's bowmen would be particularly important in this (so, they'd be prioritized above other units). This would also allow them to take out high-value targets (aka, squad leaders, Jeigen).
An additional problem for Marth is that he has enough units that they can't simply forage for food and given the time that this battle is gonna take (months is the low estimate), he's got to have supply lines, and the supply lines tend to be easy to attack, making them great places to attack, and it's particularly detrimental for Marth when they fail to get through, due to food and medicine being particularly fundmental.
To his advantage however, is comparative kill value, every kill that Marth makes is a great deal more valuable then every kill that Ike makes due to Ike's limited supply of men.
As far as terrain goes, Ike has the advantage in movement and concealment on any terrian that isn't the most marth-affaliated terrain, aka, flat plains due to formation being more difficult to travel with in anything that isn't flat ground and basically being as easy to find almost regardless of the terrain.
The commanders should be about even in skill.
Overall. Ike wins by a rather signifigant margin, probably equivilent to about 6-4, he'll wear at Marth's forces over the long haul till he has the advantage in numbers, then just beat therm. The minority of the time, Marth will trap Ike's entire force or segments, signifigantly reducing Ike's power, and repeat this, resulting in ultimately beating him.
But, it's up now, as promised, just late.
Basic issue: Marth's objective is gonna be to find and trap Ike's forces. Ike's units CANNOT survive an all-out confrontation with marth's forces, in that situation superior numbers will rule the day. Ike is trying to avoid that and launch hit and run attacks to wear down Marth's forces over a series of Months.
Marth's objective is overall easier, but since he's using conventional warfare, Ike has the advantage in ability to remain hidden. Formal battle lines, while effective in fighting against conventional enemies, are a great deal easier to find and remain hidden from then a small decentralized band.
This means that Ike's forces can launch hit and fade style attacks, where they'll be targeting a few units, and then removing themselves from the fray. Ike's bowmen would be particularly important in this (so, they'd be prioritized above other units). This would also allow them to take out high-value targets (aka, squad leaders, Jeigen).
An additional problem for Marth is that he has enough units that they can't simply forage for food and given the time that this battle is gonna take (months is the low estimate), he's got to have supply lines, and the supply lines tend to be easy to attack, making them great places to attack, and it's particularly detrimental for Marth when they fail to get through, due to food and medicine being particularly fundmental.
To his advantage however, is comparative kill value, every kill that Marth makes is a great deal more valuable then every kill that Ike makes due to Ike's limited supply of men.
As far as terrain goes, Ike has the advantage in movement and concealment on any terrian that isn't the most marth-affaliated terrain, aka, flat plains due to formation being more difficult to travel with in anything that isn't flat ground and basically being as easy to find almost regardless of the terrain.
The commanders should be about even in skill.
Overall. Ike wins by a rather signifigant margin, probably equivilent to about 6-4, he'll wear at Marth's forces over the long haul till he has the advantage in numbers, then just beat therm. The minority of the time, Marth will trap Ike's entire force or segments, signifigantly reducing Ike's power, and repeat this, resulting in ultimately beating him.
Beginning of school, been mad busy.Adum always comes in here and complains about how he wants the match to turn out...
this time I let him have his way and let Marth have alot more units, and make it like a medieval seige...and guess what everyone thinks?
BOOOOOORRRRIIINNNGGG.....
he never even showed up to post his **** synopsis he was so excited about....
I may as well just call them both wildcards and be done...
But, it's up now, as promised, just late.
JOE!
Smash Hero
oh, i thought you just abandoned it 
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Haven't been used properly perhaps?
Firstly, now really. Hit and run tactics force the army being attacked to constantly be on edge and doesn't allow them to rest properly, especially since rest-time (generally night) is a favorite raiding period.
Especially when you're dealing with trick-shot bowmen (ex. Shinon) and assasins (ex. Volke) watchmen are not gonna live particularly long.
You see, it's very difficult to pressure guerrillas unless you know where they are, at least generally enough to effect them in some way. On the other hand, a formal army can be pressured, because the guerrillas set the pacing by choosing when to attack.
And no, enemies will not know his whereabouts and numbers.
They just know "somebody's out there".
Both sides are forced to scout.
Unless Marth manages to force it, there will never be one big engagements, just a series of small ones.
And we're dealing with relatively rough terrain here, plenty of places to hide, plenty of cover.
mine, obviously.it seems we have contradicting wall of texts here.
what are we going to do?
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
inb4Sorenisn'tthere.
inb4Marthhashuntersthatcangetfood
inb4Marthhashuntersthatcangetfood
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Adum's post kinda *****. Yay go Ike now let's move onnnnnnnnnnn
JOE!
Smash Hero
okie, when i get back from lunch ill move on, but lets get a vote onto what?
or
BOSS BATTLES
just post what you'd rather see for when I come back
(been rather busy recently, havent I? >.>)
ROUND 3
or
BOSS BATTLES
just post what you'd rather see for when I come back
(been rather busy recently, havent I? >.>)
Round Three........
REL38
Smash Lord
OMG JOE . . .
You BETTER decide on a winner.
I really don't wanna see days of discussion go to a complete waste of time.
Make Ike win.
Adumb used the supply lines which I hoped he'd forget about. That cripples Marth if that's severed. Give the win to Ike. I just wanna see a blasted winner come out of this.
You BETTER decide on a winner.
I really don't wanna see days of discussion go to a complete waste of time.
Make Ike win.
Adumb used the supply lines which I hoped he'd forget about. That cripples Marth if that's severed. Give the win to Ike. I just wanna see a blasted winner come out of this.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Round 3 please.
Sieguest
Smash Master
I vote round three. :D
REL38
Smash Lord
I'd like to see Meta-Ridley VS Porky or Giga VS Ridley. That'd be pretty tight.
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
I don't think we put enough care/effort into this, but w/e.
Sieguest
Smash Master
which is why I sat out for the most part.
but I think it got pretty well covered near the end. At least to a general scope! =D
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Yeah same I didn't care about that one as much either.
Hopefully we do one that I care about. The squad battle had too many variables which is why it failed imo.
Hopefully we do one that I care about. The squad battle had too many variables which is why it failed imo.
tocador
Smash Lord
Bosss battle.
REL38
Smash Lord
Which is why it added to my rage and impatience.
It's the only reason I started to defend Marth to get the ball rolling.
smashbot226
Smash Master
Assist Trophies.
there is already a thread for that.
I say boss battles, cuz I don want to go 2 round 3 just yet.
†Slader7†
Smash Ace
I vote for boss battle
This round was pretty long if you ask me.
This round was pretty long if you ask me.
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
The Assist trophy thread is based on votes.
Yeah, this MU was long. And, we didn't really get anywhere with it >_>...
let them have their petty votes.
maybe once we finish we'll have a "special" assist trophy version.
but then, how would custom robo work?
tocador
Smash Lord
It dosent matter, the guys with the giant hands invocation would just pwn everyone.
smashbot226
Smash Master
Pit him against Advance Wars army.
Or Tingle. >_>
EDIT: Next matchup is Master/Crazy Hand Vs. Galleom & Petey Pihrana.
Or Tingle. >_>
EDIT: Next matchup is Master/Crazy Hand Vs. Galleom & Petey Pihrana.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
The reason the match-up took so long was that I took so long to post that giant wall of text....
Yea, my fault, sorry guys.
Perfect accuracy each time isn't necessary, because if they fail to take out the watchmen they'll disappear into the night before an effective counter-attack can be mounted.
As for the hunters, lol
Assuming he does have people that can do that (which is a reasonable assumption), this presents two main problems for his forces.
1: Too great a number of people, foraging just doesn't work on that scale, too many people in to small an area, you need dedicated supply lines,
2: Even if they did try to forage, that means breaking off into smaller groups, aka, perfect time to be ambushed and reduce marth's dwindling forces.
That's why you need either supply lines, or to eat as you go with forces this large (aka, capture a city, use it's food stores). Supply lines are least risky.
Supplies are always crucial when talking about an extended fight, so I always keep it in the back of my head in case it's necessary to talk about.
Yea, my fault, sorry guys.
Any of Ike's archers will serve, storylinewise seems like they've all been trained in it.
Perfect accuracy each time isn't necessary, because if they fail to take out the watchmen they'll disappear into the night before an effective counter-attack can be mounted.
As for the hunters, lol
Assuming he does have people that can do that (which is a reasonable assumption), this presents two main problems for his forces.
1: Too great a number of people, foraging just doesn't work on that scale, too many people in to small an area, you need dedicated supply lines,
2: Even if they did try to forage, that means breaking off into smaller groups, aka, perfect time to be ambushed and reduce marth's dwindling forces.
That's why you need either supply lines, or to eat as you go with forces this large (aka, capture a city, use it's food stores). Supply lines are least risky.
Me forget about it? lol, I'm the resident military nerd, and I think I was the first person to mention it, no way I'd forget about supply lines since they're so vital to generation 1, 2, and 3 warfare (and generation 4 is used by a conventional force).
Supplies are always crucial when talking about an extended fight, so I always keep it in the back of my head in case it's necessary to talk about.
payasofobia
Smash Champion
Adum! Finally!....anyway, who wins the foght according to you?
EDIT: Nevermind, I already read that Wall of text (the part that matters anyway)
Good to see Ike winning. But you got the Commanders being in equal skill wrong. Ike and his men are canonicaly way more skilled than simple army soldiers.
But whatever, not going to argue anymore.
EDIT: Nevermind, I already read that Wall of text (the part that matters anyway)
Good to see Ike winning. But you got the Commanders being in equal skill wrong. Ike and his men are canonicaly way more skilled than simple army soldiers.
But whatever, not going to argue anymore.
JOE!
Smash Hero
well...Boss battles won by a vote of 4-3...
new MU soon
(Ike won btw, guerrilla tactics > big army)
EDIT:
also, Tabuu and the hands are being cut....
new MU soon
(Ike won btw, guerrilla tactics > big army)
EDIT:
also, Tabuu and the hands are being cut....
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Boss Battle eh?
Bring it on!
*rubs hands together*
Bring it on!
*rubs hands together*
payasofobia
Smash Champion
Only them?
No Mr game and watch?
No Mr game and watch?
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Was talking about the commanders, in other words Ike vs. Marth.
While Ike's mens' skills are more important then marth's, but honestly it just comes down to him having the bodies to fill certain roles, beyond that it doesn't matter too much.
What it REALLY comes down to is the commanders' skills at command, and in that area, they're about even, they've both shown about the same level of skill.
payasofobia
Smash Champion
Not really. By the end of PoR, Ike has become the second greatest swordman in his country. Also, hehas been shown to be capable of taking mighty generals on his own He is also shown to be skilled enough to become a general at his age, command the huge crimean army and lead the elite troops of said army in the most vital and dangerous missions of the campaign.
On the other hand, by the end of SD Marth still lacks a lot of experience in commanding an army and in fighting. He succeded mostly thanks to the skills and experience of Hardin, Jeigan and the support of the divine dragons. It is by the end of the second book in Mystery of the Emblem when he is regarded as a skilled swordman and commander.
Marth is actually better as a politician than as a fighter.
TL;dr: saying that Ike and Marth are similar in skill is a huge lie. Both in canon and in gameplay.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Ummm, so wait, Shadow Dragon is FE1, not FE3? Seriously? I'm reconsidering buying it now.
Anyways, I'm talking about with his advisers.
Furthermore, Ike's particular ability was swordsmanship, he's skilled as a commander, but not amazingly so, saying that he's even with Jeigen is probably being generous.
payasofobia
Smash Champion
Well, Ike also has Titania (experience) and Soren (tactical genious) in his side.
And while he may not be as experienced in commanding an army as Jeigan (the old man is very experienced) Ike still has more experience and skill than Marth at that, which was the point of my post.
Ike>Marth in everything....except Brawl.
----------------
JOE! make a MU with a quest character from another franchise.
If the quest character wins, the loser character is disqualified and the quest character will take his place.
If the other character wins, he will get 2 points instead of one.
And while he may not be as experienced in commanding an army as Jeigan (the old man is very experienced) Ike still has more experience and skill than Marth at that, which was the point of my post.
Ike>Marth in everything....except Brawl.
----------------
JOE! make a MU with a quest character from another franchise.
If the quest character wins, the loser character is disqualified and the quest character will take his place.
If the other character wins, he will get 2 points instead of one.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I considered them, Titania and Soren are both bad ideas to bring.
Soren gets IRL-screwed, and Titania is calvery, which is a major issue for this type of fighting except in certain types of environments, this area doesn't have enough cover to hide carvery.
Marth can have useless units with him, but Ike can't afford them on the front lines, because they depend on him being able to hit quickly and fade, Titania can't fade well and Soren just dies if he gets into a fight, and detracts from their killing power.
He's better off leaving them home.
Fair enough.
But Sigurd and Celice >>>> Marth and Ike.